Tenant filed Civil case for security deposit

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Tenant filed Civil case for security deposit

Linda Thomas
Rental Property Investor · Allentown PA · Member since 2021 · 159 posts · 36 votes

Good afternoon,

Some background. Tenant lived in the unit for 8 yrs. Towards end not a good relationship. Things went south. Wife started getting rude, yelling, cursing at me etc. Decided not to renew. Proper notice was provided. They finally moved out a few months ago. I sent proper notice within 30 days as required in the state of PA with itemized list of deductions. 

SD was $1000.00

100.00 deduction for mice, missing CO detectors, broken light fixture.

300.00 for paint - not for labor nor did we hire a professional company or an ozone machine, they smoked inside the rental unit, found cigarette butts in multiple locations and burn marks on floors, Fixtures, ceiling tiles had to be painted one by one, all ceilings, and walls were full of nicotine, and we had to use kilz primer about 15 g of them in total so that is all we charged for. Not labor or anything else. Maybe we should have purchased new ceiling tiles instead but were trying to be fair and save the tenant money and give them some sort of refund. 

200.00 for the final W/S bill

300.00 for 1/2 the cost of a new stove as tenant removed our stove without our permission or knowledge so we decided and feel it was fair to purchase a new one and charge them half the cost of the new one. The one she left in the unit was not ours and i have that proof in a text message confirmation from her and i had a repair man come check it and he said it was not safe to use at all it was missing parts and wires were broken. 

100.00 -REFUND TO TENANTS 

They did not contact me to dispute or try to resolve this issue. Just filed a CV complaint and we have the hearing coming up soon. Any suggestions on the best way to handle this? my lease states that any dangerous situations need to be reported to us immediately and that tenant is not permitted to smoke inside the unit nor guests. 

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Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
Moderator
Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
3y

@Linda Thomas

Go to the hearing and bring lots of pictures and quotes you had from contractors to show them you paid that money.

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  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    3y

    @Linda Thomas

    Go to the hearing and bring lots of pictures and quotes you had from contractors to show them you paid that money.

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    3Reply
  • Patricia Steiner
    Real Estate Broker · Hyde Park Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    Document, document, document...you'll need photos, receipts, and proof that the damage wasn't just 'normal wear and tear." The lifespan of a stove is 10-15 years; the tenants were there for 8 years so charging them for half of a new stove will probably not hold up if challenged.  You will also need to tie back each offset to a lease term such as was the tenant responsible for rat/pest control per the lease?  Was smoking prohibited per the lease?  If smoking was not prohibited, the burden for offsetting will be greater and require more documentation (after 8 years residing there, the allegation that the paint was damaged from the smoke - versus time - will be difficult to prove).  

    Expect the tenant to claim that the damage noted was there when they  moved in and that you were a horrible landlord in that you would never make repairs, etc.  You will need to address those charges analytically (collect all communications from tenant for maintenance repairs).  

    Offsetting a security deposit is not a happy event for either landlord or tenant.  I recommend - going forward - to require renter's insurance with landlord as additionally insured coverage in addition to the security deposit. An 8-year term tenant will be given more lead way and the argument for wear and tear over 8 years will be the defense against your offset.

    Hope this helps...sorry you're having to deal with this.

    0Reply
  • Linda Thomas
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Allentown PA · Member since 2021 · 159 posts · 36 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Patricia Steiner:

    Document, document, document...you'll need photos, receipts, and proof that the damage wasn't just 'normal wear and tear." The lifespan of a stove is 10-15 years; the tenants were there for 8 years so charging them for half of a new stove will probably not hold up if challenged.  You will also need to tie back each offset to a lease term such as was the tenant responsible for rat/pest control per the lease?  Was smoking prohibited per the lease?  If smoking was not prohibited, the burden for offsetting will be greater and require more documentation (after 8 years residing there, the allegation that the paint was damaged from the smoke - versus time - will be difficult to prove).  

    Expect the tenant to claim that the damage noted was there when they  moved in and that you were a horrible landlord in that you would never make repairs, etc.  You will need to address those charges analytically (collect all communications from tenant for maintenance repairs).  

    Offsetting a security deposit is not a happy event for either landlord or tenant.  I recommend - going forward - to require renter's insurance with landlord as additionally insured coverage in addition to the security deposit. An 8-year term tenant will be given more lead way and the argument for wear and tear over 8 years will be the defense against your offset.

    Hope this helps...sorry you're having to deal with this.

     Yes, i have a no smoking policy in my lease and also a clause that the tenant is responsible for pest control. I have two pictures of 2 mice and pictures of the cig butts we found and of the damage to the ceiling tiles. I have the move in checklist which shows and states the condition of the property upon move in. all the ceiling tiles, floors etc were new - we had just purchased the rental and they were the only tenant we have had in there. 

    ADD on to the post - they are disputing the full 1000.00 SD - shouldn't it at least be just 700.00 in dispute because they do owe the W/S final bill which is the in lease as well that they pay W/S and have been for years and we refunded them 100.00 ???

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  • Patricia Steiner
    Real Estate Broker · Hyde Park Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    I think you're missing one thing here:  The tenant is disputing the whole amount in an attempt to intimidate/manipulate you so you'll pay them the full amount to make this whole thing go away.

    And, you may have overplayed your hand a tad; eight year tenancies are rare and the case for wear and tear is strong.  You'll lose on the paint...most landlords repaint after one or two years so that will be challenged outright.  Pest - the tenant will claim there were none when they lived there and it must have happened since they're departure.  The stove...they'll claim it's the same one or that they had no choice but to replace it since you wouldn't when the other one broke.  Most landlords I know repaint after each tenant leaves after a year or so and flooring, appliances, and the like do not fare well after 8 years of tenant life.

    I'm playing hardball with you here to prepare you for what is about to come your way.  My best counsel to you is to KNOW your state's law, reconsider wear and tear versus actual damage, and go make your well documented and supported case.  Be factual - don't mention they became a pain at the end of their stay (no doubt they did) - and support every offset better.  The smoking claim and odor/damage is valid but most states require that you hire professional contractors in order to be reimbursed for it.  Again, do your homework...

    2Reply
  • Greg M.
    Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y

    I think he stands a much better chance if he takes a different approach. 

    Paint - He said he only charged for the Kilz Primer. That should be easy to win. They caused damage by violating the lease and smoking. The cost of the Kilz is the remediation to this lease violation. Bring receipts for the outer paint to show the judge you didn't charge for this, only the primer that had to be used because of the smoking/lease violation. 

    Stove - They depreciate over 5 years, but since tenant stole stove and replaced it with an unsafe one, he had to buy a new one. Could have gone to the police, but felt half the cost of a new one was fair. This changes from value of old stove to reimbursement for theft. 

    Missing CO Detectors - Slam dunk. More stolen property. 

    W/S Bill - Should be no debate.

    2Reply
  • Linda Thomas
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Allentown PA · Member since 2021 · 159 posts · 36 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Greg M.:

    I think he stands a much better chance if he takes a different approach. 

    Paint - He said he only charged for the Kilz Primer. That should be easy to win. They caused damage by violating the lease and smoking. The cost of the Kilz is the remediation to this lease violation. Bring receipts for the outer paint to show the judge you didn't charge for this, only the primer that had to be used because of the smoking/lease violation. 

    Stove - They depreciate over 5 years, but since tenant stole stove and replaced it with an unsafe one, he had to buy a new one. Could have gone to the police, but felt half the cost of a new one was fair. This changes from value of old stove to reimbursement for theft. 

    Missing CO Detectors - Slam dunk. More stolen property. 

    W/S Bill - Should be no debate.


     Greg, do you think it would be an issue if i had used paint i had in my basement from a prior renovation at another property and only i think purchased one 5g after the SD was refunded/letter sent? =

    0Reply
  • Patricia Steiner
    Real Estate Broker · Hyde Park Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    @Linda Thomas

    @Greg M.

    Linda, stick with what you've already reported.  If you already had paint and you used it, you would not be willing to assess a paint charge to this property.  Make a case surrounding what you've already stated to the tenant.  As for the smoke detector, they have a life of 10 years...the tenant was there for 8.  You're not entitled to a new smoke detector, just the depreciated value of a new one - or 20% of a new detector.  The complexity is here because of the long time the tenant occupied the property.  If they had been a one or even two year tenant, no biggie - but 8 years is at the obsolete point for most components.  Investors - including me - tend to think we're due to receive move-in condition when a tenant departs - but we're not.  It's that less normal wear and tear - and lifespan of components.  If a tenant breaks the stove, you're not entitled to a new stove when a 8 year old stove was in the unit.  

    If it were me, I would look at what I sent the tenant and support that case - by citing the lease and landlord/tenant law.  Don't try to make up different scenarios because it will just discredit you.  Stick with what's out there and the worst outcome is that you will have to make a partial refund to these tenants who you can now enjoying having gone.

    Best...

    0Reply
  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y

    @Patricia Steiner   In what way would being an additional insured on a renters insurance policy have helped him in this situation? 

    0Reply
  • Linda Thomas
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Allentown PA · Member since 2021 · 159 posts · 36 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Patricia Steiner:

    @Linda Thomas

    @Greg M.

    Linda, stick with what you've already reported.  If you already had paint and you used it, you would not be willing to assess a paint charge to this property.  Make a case surrounding what you've already stated to the tenant.  As for the smoke detector, they have a life of 10 years...the tenant was there for 8.  You're not entitled to a new smoke detector, just the depreciated value of a new one - or 20% of a new detector.  The complexity is here because of the long time the tenant occupied the property.  If they had been a one or even two year tenant, no biggie - but 8 years is at the obsolete point for most components.  Investors - including me - tend to think we're due to receive move-in condition when a tenant departs - but we're not.  It's that less normal wear and tear - and lifespan of components.  If a tenant breaks the stove, you're not entitled to a new stove when a 8 year old stove was in the unit.  

    If it were me, I would look at what I sent the tenant and support that case - by citing the lease and landlord/tenant law.  Don't try to make up different scenarios because it will just discredit you.  Stick with what's out there and the worst outcome is that you will have to make a partial refund to these tenants who you can now enjoying having gone.

    Best...


     thank you both for your input and advice it is much appreciated. 

    0Reply
  • William Powell
    Member since 2023 · 122 posts · 68 votes
    3y

    Sounds like you win this case easily but some judges can have a disdain for landlords. It's becoming popular to demonize landlords as rich and greedy. However, in my experience, you got this in the bag. As someone said above bring every bit of documentation you can. Bring pictures, serial numbers, receipts, text messages etc.. 

    0Reply
  • Greg M.
    Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Patricia Steiner:

    As for the smoke detector, they have a life of 10 years...the tenant was there for 8.  You're not entitled to a new smoke detector, just the depreciated value of a new one - or 20% of a new detector.  

    This is assuming that the detector was new when the tenant moved in. May have been replaced in year 7 of their stay.

    Still, he wants reimbursement for stolen property. Most judges aren't going to depreciate items for a thief. Especially true for ones who steal legally mandated safety equipment. When my house was burgled, I don't recall the DA depreciating the value of items stolen when they made their case. They used the value we paid.

    As for the paint he had left over, it has the same value as new paint. He's entitled to the cost of the paint regardless of whether he bought it for this project or had it left over from a prior project.
    0Reply
  • Patricia Steiner
    Real Estate Broker · Hyde Park Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    3y

    @Colleen F.

    Landlords need to do regular inspections of their tenant occupied properties; quarterly or semi-annually at least. And, a lease should never be renewed without the landlord inspecting the premises.  The inspection can be guised as a review of upcoming maintenance needs rather than as something that may appear threatening to the tenant.  And, now to your question (my apologies): had an inspection been completed during the occupancy and the stove was damaged or had been replaced with one that wasn't safe, the smoke detector had been tampered with/broken, whatever - and any other damage was noted, the landlord could have forced a claim under the Renter's Insurance Policy.  Those repairs would have been made under that policy and avoided the security deposit drama which is unfolding for this landlord. Also, the landlord would have known about the lease terms being violated - like smoking and rats - and could have addressed those at that time.  When landlords fail to inspect and manage to the lease, 'stuff' like this happens.  

    Security Deposit offsets are highly scruntinized by the court system. Each state has it's on set of acceptable conditions for offset and only the depreciated value of an asset is awarded; receipts, photos, documentation is also recorded by the court and the tenant is entitled to that documentation as well.  Renter's insurance is about replacement/repair so why would a landlord not hold the tenant accountable and have damages repaired under a tenant purchased policy?  The duty to inspect is the key to avoiding all of this drama and expense.

    Fun, huh?

    0Reply
  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    3y

    The person with evidence wins. Stick to the facts. Have your receipts. If you have before/after pictures, bring printed copies. The judge will rely on evidence.

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  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y

    @Linda Thomas I don't see this as a problem for you at all. You have evidence and they won't. I assume a 'Civil Case'  is similar to Small Claims? Those Judges are usually favorable to the business owner because all they see are people trying to take advantage of a business. 

    There is a good chance they don't even bother to show up......

    This should be a slam dunk for you, I'd like to show up with beer and popcorn and watch.....

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  • Linda Thomas
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Allentown PA · Member since 2021 · 159 posts · 36 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

    @Linda Thomas I don't see this as a problem for you at all. You have evidence and they won't. I assume a 'Civil Case'  is similar to Small Claims? Those Judges are usually favorable to the business owner because all they see are people trying to take advantage of a business. 

    There is a good chance they don't even bother to show up......

    This should be a slam dunk for you, I'd like to show up with beer and popcorn and watch.....

    @Patricia Steiner

    @Colleen F.

    Bruce I hope so. haha come join the party! 

    This was a section 8 tenant and there were yearly inspections completed. Never any evidence of rats found by the inspector. All the CO detectors were in place during the inspection in Jan of 2023 so upon leaving the unit in March two were missing? as far as the smoking goes, they were very clean and perhaps this wasn't picked up and missed on our end or the inspectors - we were not very through perhaps. As far as the stove goes, I have the proof in text messages from the tenant when she left the premises where I asked her why the stove was replaced and removed without our knowledge or that there was an issue. She confirmed that she replaced it and didn't want to bother us. Said it wasn't working properly and smelling like gas. Didn't leave us our old stove or provide us with the opportunity to send a repairman to see if it was fixable. Why do this behind our backs especially being low income and going and spending on a stove? they always cried that they were broke, perhaps they sold my stove that was in good shape still and left me with a piece of crap that was unsafe right before they vacated the unit. who knows

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  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y

    Ahh, of course. Section 8. There is a reason why a lot of us will not touch those for any amount of money....Good Luck!

    1Reply
  • William Powell
    Member since 2023 · 122 posts · 68 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Linda Thomas:
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:

    @Linda Thomas I don't see this as a problem for you at all. You have evidence and they won't. I assume a 'Civil Case'  is similar to Small Claims? Those Judges are usually favorable to the business owner because all they see are people trying to take advantage of a business. 

    There is a good chance they don't even bother to show up......

    This should be a slam dunk for you, I'd like to show up with beer and popcorn and watch.....

    @Patricia Steiner

    @Colleen F.

    Bruce I hope so. haha come join the party! 

    This was a section 8 tenant and there were yearly inspections completed. Never any evidence of rats found by the inspector. All the CO detectors were in place during the inspection in Jan of 2023 so upon leaving the unit in March two were missing? as far as the smoking goes, they were very clean and perhaps this wasn't picked up and missed on our end or the inspectors - we were not very through perhaps. As far as the stove goes, I have the proof in text messages from the tenant when she left the premises where I asked her why the stove was replaced and removed without our knowledge or that there was an issue. She confirmed that she replaced it and didn't want to bother us. Said it wasn't working properly and smelling like gas. Didn't leave us our old stove or provide us with the opportunity to send a repairman to see if it was fixable. Why do this behind our backs especially being low income and going and spending on a stove? they always cried that they were broke, perhaps they sold my stove that was in good shape still and left me with a piece of crap that was unsafe right before they vacated the unit. who knows


     One of the main things I do in all properties I buy is to kill the gas line in the wall and run a 240 so I can have an electric stove. Tenants and gas stoves are not a mixture I like. They will use them to heat rooms and other dangerous habits. I usually keep a gas water heater because they tend to last so long problem free but not the gas stove. I've had only one Section 8 tenant but even in low-income areas, I don't market for voucher customers. Nothing against them but I prefer to do it the other way around. Market for a regular customer and if they need help in the future I assist them in getting their voucher.

    2Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @William Powell:

    One of the main things I do in all properties I buy is to kill the gas line in the wall and run a 240 so I can have an electric stove. Tenants and gas stoves are not a mixture I like. They will use them to heat rooms and other dangerous habits. I usually keep a gas water heater because they tend to last so long problem free but not the gas stove. I've had only one Section 8 tenant but even in low-income areas, I don't market for voucher customers. Nothing against them but I prefer to do it the other way around. Market for a regular customer and if they need help in the future I assist them in getting their voucher.

    Smart man....!
    1Reply
  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    3y

    Youll be ok on most of the deductions. The paint I think youll lose on however. Most states require a landlord to repaint every 3-5 years. If they were there 8 years, it likely would need to be repainted regardless.

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  • Chris Merchant
    Member since 2023 · 216 posts · 133 votes
    3y

    Just bring everything you have for documentation.  I know where I am it is extremely difficult to get paint covered with a SD unless tenant abuse/neglect caused the need for the paint, you can't just use the SD to put a fresh coat of paint on the walls.

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  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    3y

    @Patricia Steiner Thanks, I would never think to collect under the renters insurance for those things.  Have you been successful with the more minor tenant damages and renters insurance? Say for example cigarette burns on the floor, ceiling tiles, or similar? Is the renters insurance really going to pay if the tenant steals the stove? or vandalizes? since it is illegal behavior. I am curious about your success for things that are typically security deposit deductions.  

    Inspections I see the need and I do them but you can miss things. A carpet is covering the floor burns , for example with a recent tenant.   It would however be hard to miss having a smoker in the house, the yellow walls.  It is also a hard smell to erase. 

    0Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Russell Brazil:

    Youll be ok on most of the deductions. The paint I think youll lose on however. Most states require a landlord to repaint every 3-5 years. If they were there 8 years, it likely would need to be repainted regardless.


     I think she's just charging for the primer....?

    0Reply
  • Linda Thomas
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Allentown PA · Member since 2021 · 159 posts · 36 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @Russell Brazil:

    Youll be ok on most of the deductions. The paint I think youll lose on however. Most states require a landlord to repaint every 3-5 years. If they were there 8 years, it likely would need to be repainted regardless.


     I think she's just charging for the primer....?


     Yes just for primer to remediate the nicotine on the walls and ceiling and ceiling tiles, had to paint all of them in the two rooms. 

    0Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    3y
    Quote from @Linda Thomas:
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @Russell Brazil:

    Youll be ok on most of the deductions. The paint I think youll lose on however. Most states require a landlord to repaint every 3-5 years. If they were there 8 years, it likely would need to be repainted regardless.


     I think she's just charging for the primer....?


     Yes just for primer to remediate the nicotine on the walls and ceiling and ceiling tiles, had to paint all of them in the two rooms. 


     I think that's very fair, and I can't see any judge objecting....

    0Reply
  • Linda Thomas
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Allentown PA · Member since 2021 · 159 posts · 36 votes
    3y
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @Linda Thomas:
    Quote from @Bruce Woodruff:
    Quote from @Russell Brazil:

    Youll be ok on most of the deductions. The paint I think youll lose on however. Most states require a landlord to repaint every 3-5 years. If they were there 8 years, it likely would need to be repainted regardless.


     I think she's just charging for the primer....?


     Yes just for primer to remediate the nicotine on the walls and ceiling and ceiling tiles, had to paint all of them in the two rooms. 


     I think that's very fair, and I can't see any judge objecting....


     I sure hope so, just hate going to court ugh. I will let you guys know how I make out haha. Wish me luck! thanks for all the help and support. Much appreciated.!

    2Reply
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