Property Manager Trying to Stick it to Me?

Property Manager Trying to Stick it to Me?

Tulsa, OK · Member since 2014 · 5 posts · 0 votes

Hello Everyone,

First, sorry about the lenth of this post...I'm pretty upset with the situation and wanted to get it off my chest.

Long time reader, first time poster. I have a couple rental properties however I recently hired my first property manager for a property in Northern Virginia. I hired them in February to find a tenant and manage the property in my abscence. I have since moved 800 miles away. We found a tenant and she moved in this past weekend. I lived in the property for 6 months before I left and renovated almost everything however I never touched anything electrical. Also, my home inspector gave me an "all clear" on the electrical during the walk through. I installed new ceiling fans upstairs which all worked when I left. My property manager emailed me to tell me the master bed ceiling fan was not working and a couple outlets were dead and they needed to send one of thier maintenance men out.

Ok, now please read the email I received from them today:

"Good evening, Mr. XXXXXX.

We have sent out several XXXX Handyman technicians at different times to investigate the electrical issues that we have discussed through previous emails. While investigating the power problems in your home, one of technician found that the light at the top of the stairs had 240 volts as well as the attic light fixture. As much as our initial effort was to minimize your costs and not get a licensed electrician involved, we had no option but to call on a licensed electrician to investigate and resolve the issues. We called upon XXXX Electric, who is one of our trusted vendors. We were under the assumption that something had gone wrong at the breaker box and we would still be well within our previous estimate.

Upon investigating the issue with the ceiling fan, the electrician notified us of numerous building code violations that are causing these severe issues throughout the property. It appears that during the home remodeling stage some building codes were not adhered to. What he found was that there were exposed wires in the attic, open wiring connections in the attic, incorrect gauge wiring, and ground wires not connected. Any one of these items would be a fire hazard; all of them combined was a situation that required the electrician to either immediately notify the County or begin to repair the issues and eliminate the threat of fire. Notifying the County would have meant an immediate visit from the fire department/fire marshal who would have condemned the building unsafe for residency, having to schedule an inspection with the County to validate that all violations were corrected, paying a fine of $350 for each violation found in the house, and having to break the lease because the house could not be delivered as agreed upon.

For all of these reasons, we asked that the violations be corrected as quickly as possible. Originally the electrician was planning to call the county on the spot, however we convinced the electrician not to call county and told him that he can do the work immediately which meant there was no reason to report the property to the county. I have attached a copy of the final invoice from XXXX Electric Services for your property at XXXX. for work performed. The original pricing for the work was at $100.00 an hour. The electrician spent over 20 hours working on rectifying the issues. We negotiated a 25% discount to reduce the expense for you as much as possible. He sent us his final invoice today.

Would you like to send the check directly to XXXX Electric or would you like us to pay the invoice on your behalf and charge your account?"

Needless to say my first experience with a property manger isn't starting off well. My issues with this email:

1. They performed 20 hours of work and I receive no communication whatsoever until now??

2. The "trusted vendor" they chose to come out threatened to call the county on the spot? Doesn't sound like a very trusting relationship to me

3. I never touched any wiring while living there and the inspector gave me the green light (although I don't know how closely he looked at the wiring).

So here is my question for all you out there in the bigger pockets community: How would you respond to this situation? In my current state of mind I want to fire this PM, find another, and report these guys to the BBB and NPMA.

Please help this newbie. I'm extremely disheartened by this and am second guessing being an absentee landlord.

Tim

0Reply
36 views

Most Popular Reply

Anthony GaydenPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
12y

@Timothy Sparrow the first thing I would do is ask to talk to the electrician. I would want a detailed list from them of everything that was done. I also would want pictures. If I am spending thousands of dollars on a property and I can't physically see the work being done, pictures are mandatory. Also a detailed invoice of all materials and charges, and any warranties should be scanned and emailed to you. I also would like the electrician to explain to me the work.

I personally don't blame the electrician, but I would want to be certain that the work that was stated was actually completed, and I want to be certain that everything that the property manager was claiming is true.

The next thing I would do is fire your property manager. I could care less if they thought the situation demanded immediate attention, it isn't their money that is being spent. It is total BS if they are suggesting that a second quote from a different electrician couldn't have been obtained. When it comes to expensive repairs, I like to get multiple quotes so that I know I am not paying the single most expensive contractor in town.

@Brian Mathews you are taking this too personally since you are a contractor, but there is no way I would have any work that costs thousands of dollars done on my property without getting estimates from a few different sources. That doesn't mean craigslist handymen, that means from licensed and certified professionals. Everyone on this site knows that there are some unsavory contractors that literally charge double or even triple the going rates to gullible people.

See this reply in the discussion

32 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Anthony GaydenPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    My property manager isn't authorized to spend more than $300 on anything without contacting me. If I suddenly got a bill for over $1000, I would be mad too. If nothing else, I would have liked to get a second opinion from a different contractor.

  • Tulsa, OK · Member since 2014 · 5 posts · 0 votes
    12y

    I have the same limits setup in my contract however there is a clause that states they reserve the right to move forward with any repair that is deemed "urgent" which could impact the immediate safety of a tenant.

    Still though, no communication whatsoever until after 20 hours of work was performed? Seems very fishy to me.

  • Chris K.Pro Member
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 655 votes
    12y

    This is one of my biggest fears of hiring a PM. The whole time I'm reading that I feel like it's a big scam. I'd be pissed that they took it upon themselves to make that many decisions without consulting you first. I personally could NEVER have someone like that in charge of my properties. Sorry I know I'm not helping much but I feel your frustration on this.

  • Chris K.Pro Member
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 655 votes
    12y

    And the licenced electrician I use is about $40-$50 an hour and solved 4 seperate electrical issue/mysteries for me in less than 2 hrs.

  • Contractor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2013 · 767 posts · 389 votes
    12y

    240 volts at a 110 volt light and the light wouldn't work for very long. Who knows about the other stuff. $100/hr isn't out of line for a licensed electrician. I don't think there is much you can do in regards to paying the electrician at this point, somebody has too or you risk the possibility of a lien being filed on the property. It's up to you to work it out to resolve it with the PM in regards to getting re-imbursed. The electrician acted in good faith with a person you hired to represent you, it's not his problem to get approval and call you or even know who you are. I work with PM's all the time, I don't contact the owners directly, if the PM tells me to proceed, I need to get paid by somebody. A few times I will contact the owner if the PM wants me too or the owner wants to talk to me. Pay the electrician and pound the PM.

  • Tulsa, OK · Member since 2014 · 5 posts · 0 votes
    12y

    Brian,

    I'm not angry with the electrician...as far as I'm concerned he was just doing his job. I know this invoice will need to be paid. The question has to do with the PM. If you were in my position how would respond to the PM? Try to get them to pay for it?, Fire them and find a new PM?, Report to BBB?, or just state your frustration and move on with the same PM?

  • Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    I'm hoping an electrician will answer this, but 20 hours seems like about 17 hours too many.

    Can you share the name of the pm so other investors will know not to use them?

    Yes that means you should fire them ASAP!

  • Calumet City, IL · Member since 2014 · 312 posts · 49 votes
    12y

    There should be a clause in the property manager's contract that says they must confer with the owner for repairs over a certain dollar amount.

  • Contractor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2013 · 767 posts · 389 votes
    12y

    @Timothy Sparrow

    I would first thing call the property manager and talk to them. Explain your issues and ask them nicely to pay for a portion of it. I will imagine there is a certain amount of legitimacy to the issues the electrician fixed. If the house wasn't new when you purchased it, I would imagine there is a very good chance the wiring wasn't up to code in different places. I've seen many places where the DIY'er took it upon themselves to wire things up not being aware of the potential for disaster or code violation. So your issue with the PM is that they authorized the repair without your consent. I can understand the electrician threatening to report the issues. I'm an hvac contractor and the state of Texas doesn't care if I find something unsafe and let somebody know, they expect me to disable it. That is on me and there is a huge amount of liability and the risk to my license of which I feed my family with. The electrician could have turned the breakers off to the areas in question to prevent risk of fire and documented it to the PM. Or pulled the wires out of the breakers or the breakers themselves to prevent power being re-applied. There were other ways this could have been handled. I think you either have an inexperienced PM or one getting a percentage back from the electrician, which is very common, I have 2 PM's that charge a maintenance fee for the work I do.

  • Specialist · Rockland, MA · Member since 2010 · 7k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Timothy Sparrow

    Go To IREM.org search for ARM certified property managers you need a more professional PM

    Paul

  • Contractor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2013 · 767 posts · 389 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Cal C.:
    I'm hoping an electrician will answer this, but 20 hours seems like about 17 hours too many.
    Can you share the name of the pm so other investors will know not to use them?

    Yes that means you should fire them ASAP!

    You, myself nor anybody on this forum has any idea what the scope of the work was. So to make an accusation that he really only needed 3 hrs for the 20 he charged for is a ridiculous.

  • Property Manager · Big Bear Lake, CA · Member since 2013 · 585 posts · 330 votes
    12y

    I'm replying as a property manager. The work probably needed to be done. But, they should have notified you immediately of the situation. They should never have authorized that without a phone call to you. It just takes one minute. If I were you, I would be furious that I didn't find out about it till after 20 hours of work were done. Sounds to me like it's time to find another pm.

  • Pataskala, OH · Member since 2014 · 36 posts · 4 votes
    12y

    At this point would it hurt to get a second opinion from a third party electrician whom you've hired? If they find it only takes X amount of dollars then you could push back on the PM and they pay for the difference. Either way it's a "he said, she said" and you aren't there to handle it personally. Also (last thought) but try googling the name of your PM and "complaints" it may give you a history of this sort of thing to push back with

  • Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Brian Mathews:
    Originally posted by @Cal C.:
    I'm hoping an electrician will answer this, but 20 hours seems like about 17 hours too many.
    Can you share the name of the pm so other investors will know not to use them?
    Yes that means you should fire them ASAP!

    You, myself nor anybody on this forum has any idea what the scope of the work was. So to make an accusation that he really only needed 3 hrs for the 20 he charged for is a ridiculous.

    Either the inspector missed a whole bunch of glaring electrical issues or you are right. However since the electrician was hired by a pm who apparently didn't tell the owner an electrician was being hired, I'll stand by my statement of it seeming like way too many hours.

  • Real Estate Investor · Berkeley, CA · Member since 2014 · 143 posts · 91 votes
    12y

    Here are my thoughts....

    I would first read your contract with them very carefully and look for what it says about repairs.

    Normally PM's are only allowed to use an agreed upon dollar amount kept in a reserve fund in the trust account to do repairs. However there is sometimes an exception, such as in an emergency situation. There can be a clause allowing a manager to intervene and spend/bill more if he thinks that by not doing the work right away it may cause significant damages to the property, significant loss of income, loss of life, etc.

    I would think if you try to fight this, they may use this "fire hazard" as an emergency exception, if that is in your contract. Either way, it sounds a bit fishy that they never contacted you about this until after the fact. It would have been good business for them to call you right away when they realized that this work needed to be done. You may want to consider hiring a different PM and put in a clause in the employment agreement that if there is any significant repair that will go above and beyond your normal reserve amount (an emergency situation for example), they are required to make an attempt to contact you right away.

    What does your property management contract say in regards to repair/maintenance allowances and emergency situations?

  • Real Estate Investor · Carmichael, CA · Member since 2013 · 111 posts · 16 votes
    12y

    I would fire the PM. And report to BBB and post the PM name/company here. So that other owner will not be a victim.

    Fire the PM. Find another new PM.

  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    I would be livid with the PM. After several handyman calls they had to hire the electrician...what about a call to you. I would speak to the electrician directly and get a description of everything done. This is not to argue about hours but to know for the future and to verify this calling the fire department statement occurred. Depending on the outcome of this conversation I would not have this electrician in the house again. Anyone who says essentially let me do the work now or I am calling the fire department well that 's not someone I want in my house. Disconnect the hazard fine but let me do the work now , not so much.. My guess is the PM and the electrician have an agreement and you might do better in the future to pick your own trusted vendors. For the PM you might consider that no work is done even emergency work without evidence they tried to contact you via a voicemail /email etc., not sure how to enforce but in todays day and age saying you couldn't reach someone until after should be few and far between.

  • Contractor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2013 · 767 posts · 389 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Cal C.:
    Originally posted by @Brian Mathews:
    Originally posted by @Cal C.:
    I'm hoping an electrician will answer this, but 20 hours seems like about 17 hours too many.
    Can you share the name of the pm so other investors will know not to use them?
    Yes that means you should fire them ASAP!

    You, myself nor anybody on this forum has any idea what the scope of the work was. So to make an accusation that he really only needed 3 hrs for the 20 he charged for is a ridiculous.

    Either the inspector missed a whole bunch of glaring electrical issues or you are right. However since the electrician was hired by a pm who apparently didn't tell the owner an electrician was being hired, I'll stand by my statement of it seeming like way too many hours.

    Obviously you have no experience in this area of home inspections, electrical or other maintenance issues and how long things take to get fixed if done properly. Sure you can hire $15/hr craigslist electrical guy and he can whiz through it in no time so he can rush to the beer and cigarette store after you pay him in cash. This after he begs you for $5 so he an put gas in his truck so he can get to the job. None of the issues he mentioned were "glaring" unless the inspector got up in the attic and crawled through every square inch of it looking for these issues. He should have looked around a little, but not checked every electrical connection the attic. I've never known an inspector to check electrical outlets unless they were GFCI. As far as the 240 volts to lights that run on 110 volts. That's a red flag to me, because anybody who knows anything about electricity knows that if you apply double the voltage to something, it won't last long.

  • Anthony GaydenPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    @Timothy Sparrow the first thing I would do is ask to talk to the electrician. I would want a detailed list from them of everything that was done. I also would want pictures. If I am spending thousands of dollars on a property and I can't physically see the work being done, pictures are mandatory. Also a detailed invoice of all materials and charges, and any warranties should be scanned and emailed to you. I also would like the electrician to explain to me the work.

    I personally don't blame the electrician, but I would want to be certain that the work that was stated was actually completed, and I want to be certain that everything that the property manager was claiming is true.

    The next thing I would do is fire your property manager. I could care less if they thought the situation demanded immediate attention, it isn't their money that is being spent. It is total BS if they are suggesting that a second quote from a different electrician couldn't have been obtained. When it comes to expensive repairs, I like to get multiple quotes so that I know I am not paying the single most expensive contractor in town.

    @Brian Mathews you are taking this too personally since you are a contractor, but there is no way I would have any work that costs thousands of dollars done on my property without getting estimates from a few different sources. That doesn't mean craigslist handymen, that means from licensed and certified professionals. Everyone on this site knows that there are some unsavory contractors that literally charge double or even triple the going rates to gullible people.

  • Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Brian Mathews:
    Originally posted by @Cal C.:
    Originally posted by @Brian Mathews:
    Originally posted by @Cal C.:
    I'm hoping an electrician will answer this, but 20 hours seems like about 17 hours too many.
    Can you share the name of the pm so other investors will know not to use them?
    Yes that means you should fire them ASAP!

    You, myself nor anybody on this forum has any idea what the scope of the work was. So to make an accusation that he really only needed 3 hrs for the 20 he charged for is a ridiculous.

    Either the inspector missed a whole bunch of glaring electrical issues or you are right. However since the electrician was hired by a pm who apparently didn't tell the owner an electrician was being hired, I'll stand by my statement of it seeming like way too many hours.

    Obviously you have no experience in this area of home inspections, electrical or other maintenance issues and how long things take to get fixed if done properly. Sure you can hire $15/hr craigslist electrical guy and he can whiz through it in no time so he can rush to the beer and cigarette store after you pay him in cash. This after he begs you for $5 so he an put gas in his truck so he can get to the job. None of the issues he mentioned were "glaring" unless the inspector got up in the attic and crawled through every square inch of it looking for these issues. He should have looked around a little, but not checked every electrical connection the attic. I've never known an inspector to check electrical outlets unless they were GFCI. As far as the 240 volts to lights that run on 110 volts. That's a red flag to me, because anybody who knows anything about electricity knows that if you apply double the voltage to something, it won't last long.

    Not quite sure how you could not label these as glaring errors? "there were exposed wires in the attic, open wiring connections in the attic, incorrect gauge wiring, and ground wires not connected." I think you entirely misunderstood my point. Which was I doubt if there was anything more than a minor electrical issue. There were lots of red flags indicating this to me. 1) PM didn't inform owner until after the electrician finished his/her work 2) Several handymen couldn't figure out the problem (I guess they missed all those exposed wires and connections just like the inspector) after the 2d handyman failed to resolve the problem that was the time to call the electrician. 3) We got you a 25% discount before you even knew about the problem (to me that screams ripoff). 4) The electrician supposedly said that I have to start 2.5 mandays of work immediately or I'm going to have to call the code enforcement which will likely result in building being labeled uninhabitable and a whole bunch of fines. 5) Homeowner was told that a poor rehab was done on the house and the person who did the rehab left exposed wires and connections. Yes this does happen, but most people recognize it is dangerous. I've seen a lot of houses and I've only rarely seen one exposed wire let alone multiple instances in the same house. 6) Supposedly the light at the top of the stairs was wired for 240. How long would this have worked? Probably not the six months the owner lived there.

    So for this to have happened like the PM indicates. This is the series of events:

    1) A bad rehab job was done leaving exposed wires and exposed connections. Hall light was hooked up to 240

    2) Hall light worked for more than six months with 240 hooked up to it.

    3) Home inspector missed multiple exposed wires, exposed electrical connections and unconnected ground wires.

    4) Owner missed all of this stuff while living there and installing some ceiling fans. Understand DIY is the most likely cause of the actual electrical problems, but the 240 to the hall light remains inexplicable.

    5) Several handymen/technicians missed the exposed wires and connections while working on an electrical issue.

    6) Trusted Electrician finally called and finally finds the problems all of the other people somehow mysteriously missed and threatens to report code violations

    7) Electrician does 2.5 mandays of work BEFORE owner is told about the problems.

    8) PM finally tells the owner AFTER THE FACT and reports he/she was able to reduce the electricians bill.

  • Contractor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2013 · 767 posts · 389 votes
    12y

    @Cal C.

    If you read my posts previously you will see that I agree that there is something fishy. My issue was with your assumption that everything could have been done in 3 hrs without knowing the scope of the work. I also agree that the PM should have notified the owner before proceeding with $2000 worth of repairs. If it is legitimate, which WE have no way of knowing, the electrician is obligated to inform the powers that be that the place is unsafe. I think there are ways around it by disconnecting power to the areas in issue. I do not think that an inspector is going to take apart every plug in the house to verify the wiring is the correct gauge, I also do not expect the inspector to crawl through the attic to every fixture to verify it is correct. I do thing they should spot check areas in the attic, of which maybe he did, maybe he didn't . I would call the inspector that did the inspection and ask him a few questions regarding this, he might have pictures that could help the owner out.

    @Anthony Gayden

    I'm not taking it personally, I just don't like people making assumptions without facts. As I mentioned above and in previous posts, it was wrong to spend the man's money without him knowing about it. There is something fishy to the story. I would call the inspector and the electrician and get all the facts to the story before making any judgments. I would make a judgment on the PM however. And not because it was supposedly an electrical disaster, but because they didn't notify the owner.

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Washington, DC · Member since 2014 · 27 posts · 16 votes
    12y

    Tim,

    PM in DC and have dealt with a few housing issues that ballooned like this. It's entirely possible the electrician was sent just check out one thing only to have another 2-3 pointed out while there which then leads to investigating further which then...

    I'd err on the side of assuming the manager was acting in good faith and protection of your house and tenant. To believe otherwise will only lead you to another PM. (Side note: When interviewing new clients I'd always ask what their problem was with their last PM because that was, most likely, going to be their issue with me.)

    Property Management is all about communication and there were clearly crossed wires here. The errors can be corrected by a civil discussion and clear directive that it shouldn't happen again. Even a short string of emails would have at least notified you that the simple issue was growing in real time. That is not too much to ask these days.

    This is also a good chance to reassess your leadership as the landlord. You are the captain of the ship; The management works at your directives (within reason and legality). What do you want to happen when issues arise? What improvements can you add to the equation? A limit or reserve is worth considering.

    I'd be willing to forgive but not willing to fully forget.

  • Investor · Great Falls, MT · Member since 2014 · 163 posts · 132 votes
    12y

    Forgive? The tone of that E-mail as a first contact with that amount of time passing? Fired, without a doubt fired. Unless I had missed calls and a number of E-mails that I didn't respond to fired a thousand times over.

    There was no emergency. Power could have been killed. Emergency is a gas leak or flooding etc. It was your call, not theirs. And even if it was, my PM would be burning up the phone to get with me during the emergency. And if not? Fired. And they would have a dirty negative review from me on every corner of the internet. I would be so livid I'd head out to the property to personally inspect the work done and get second opinion on it. Even if it was all legit, fired. Any property manager who fails to communicate like that and who you don't trust should be fired. But I'd have enough doubt with this situation that I'd be considering looking into the facts in case challenging the bill is on the table. Did I mention fired? Fired.

  • Queen Creek, AZ · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    I would fish around for more information. Call your renter and ask them if they were there while the work was done. What did the electrician say? How long was he there? If they tell you the guy was in and out in 3 hours then that settles the case. If they tell you he was there hammering away for three days then you know he was at least doing something.

  • Queen Creek, AZ · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    Ooops hit post to early. Doing the above can give you a sense if hey electrician was honest, I would still be upset with the PM and agree that this sounds like a fraud. Anytime someone tells me I have to do something NOW or else it sends up a red flag for me. I have had contractors show up (roofers) and give me that kind of line "just write us check for $2,500 and we can do this right now, gee looks a little cloudy..... and then had the same repair done for $400)

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.