Ethics & Discrimination…. A question of Right vs Right!!

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Ethics & Discrimination…. A question of Right vs Right!!

Cameron Norfleet
New Haven, CT · Member since 2013 · 222 posts · 134 votes

Ok so I was having this debate with a local landlord and I’d like to hear your opinion…. You charge $25 for your application fee. You show the house to a nice couple and they want to apply but they don’t speak, read or write English. They have an interpreter there to help them fill out the application and the interpreter would also be there to help them understand and sign your lease agreement if they’re granted the rental. And of course you don’t speak their language. Would you automatically disqualify them? If so, would you still take their $25 application fee knowing that they’re not going to get the rental? Let’s keep in mind that we’re all ETHICAL investors AND we don’t want to be sued for DISCRIMINATION.

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Dawn AnastasiPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
11y

Okay, a deaf person would be considered disabled.  But you still can't discriminate against someone because they don't speak English if they have an interpreter.  

Here is a case from the HUD website from 2013 for a Virginia company that had to pay a $82,500 settlement because they refused to rent to a Hispanic woman who didn't speak English.

The Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in the rental of housing on the basis of national origin.

“Denying housing because a person does not speak English well violates the Fair Housing Act,” said John Trasviña, HUD Assistant Secretary for Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity. “This settlement reaffirms HUD’s commitment to combating discrimination against a person because of their national origin or the language they speak.”

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    Why aren't they getting the rental?  THERE'S your answer.

    4Reply
  • Don Coumbs
    Flipper · Cheney, WA · Member since 2014 · 77 posts · 47 votes
    11y

    First off, I always take an application because telling people they don't qualify right out of the gate reeks of discrimination.  I don't take an application fee because I view tenant screening as one of my costs of doing business.  But if I did charge, my process would be the same for everyone - it needs to be because different treatment is discrimination.

    I manage my own rentals and I wouldn't like to rent to someone with whom I couldn't converse.  That said, I rent to all kinds of situations which aren't my favorite. 

    My rule is to treat people the way I would want to be treated. 

    If I were part of this nice couple, I would expect to make some effort to let my landlord communicate with me. 

    At the time of the showing, I would ask about communication and give them the opportunity to say "ok, here is our plan, I'll give you permission to contact my interpreter about rental issues." - or anthing else which would work.

    So basically, no it wouldn't be an automatic deal killer.  I am willing to make reasonable accomodations to make a situation work out.

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  • Don Coumbs
    Flipper · Cheney, WA · Member since 2014 · 77 posts · 47 votes
    11y

    Two other things which occurred to me after I hit post:

    I have rented to foreign college students with whom communication was difficult because of a language barrier, but not exactly the situation you describe.  My worst communication situations have been from cultural differences not language.

    As far as I know (and I would be interested if anyone else has information to the contrary) I am not required and probably not allowed to look into someone's immigration status when making a rental decision.

    0Reply
  • Cameron Norfleet
    OP
    New Haven, CT · Member since 2013 · 222 posts · 134 votes
    11y

    @Account Closed They may not get the rental because of the language barrier, but is that discrimination or wisdom. If it's wisdom, try explaining how it's not discrimination to a Judge.

    @Don Coumbs  Good points

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  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    11y

    If there is some issue, and not speaking English is not a valid issue, but let's say at the showing they mention they just got new jobs, new to them, no experience and say they mentioned it's on commission and you see they are driving a new car that they mentioned as having good credit, like we have made our car payment on time every month, dang car isn't 6 months old......

    What does that tell you, you can dig a bit deeper and pre qualify them for free and you should! If you certain they won't qualify, that is the time to talk about and tell them, you can make application, but it's 25 bucks to process it and from what you told me, you won't qualify based on your new job, income and the obvious debt on that beautiful car!

    It would be unethical not to let them know and string them along from a measly 25 bucks.

    And, your example above, how do you know they won't qualify, because you can't speak their language? I see where the discrimination is and no, it's not ethical.

    Make an effort to communicate, hand signs can go along way, get a cell number for the point of contact.  :)

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Cameron Norfleet:

    @Bob Bowling They may not get the rental because of the language barrier, but is that discrimination or wisdom. 

     That is discrimination.   

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  • Cameron Norfleet
    OP
    New Haven, CT · Member since 2013 · 222 posts · 134 votes
    11y

    @Bill Gulley This was an actual occurrence that a landlord was asking me about. He wasn't sure if he did the right thing. You're adding factors that weren't present. Based on the info that I gave, are you saying that he should rent to them if they qualify on paper, regardless of the language barrier? I do think that you have a good point about having the interpreter as the main point of contact but what happens if the tenants and the interpreter have a falling out and he no longer wants to interpret for them, or he no longer has their best interest at heart?

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  • Cameron Norfleet
    OP
    New Haven, CT · Member since 2013 · 222 posts · 134 votes
    11y

    @Account Closed I'm not a lawyer but I don't think that discrimination is a crime. Discriminating against protected classes is a crime. I can discriminate against smokers by saying "no smokers allowed". However, discriminating against protected classes is a crime. But is language a protected class or is ethnicity? That was the debate that I was having with this landlord. He wouldn't be discriminating against these people because of their ethnicity, because according to him, if they spoke English he would rent to them. He just doesn't want to be committed to someone for the next year that he can't communicate effectively with.

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  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y

    I'm certainly not an attorney, but I wouldn't assume there is any illegal discrimination going on by refusing to rent to someone who doesn't speak English.  Assuming, of course, that you're not refusing to rent to them based on their ethnicity, which would clearly be illegal.

    Now, regardless of the legal aspects, would I personally refuse to rent to someone who spoke no English?  Probably.  It's important that when there is an issue or something important that needed to be attended to with respect to one of my investments, I can handle it quickly and easily.  Having to work through an interpreter every time I had to communicate with a tenant would be difficult and time consuming, and I'd refuse to rent to anyone whom I thought would be difficult and time-consuming to deal with.

    It's the same reason I won't hire contractors who don't speak any English.  I'm happy to hire contractors of any ethnicity, but if they can't communicate at least well enough to get the job done efficiently, it's costing me time and money to work with them.

    Let me add that I'm not lumping in people who don't speak English well.  My criteria isn't based on how well someone speaks English...it's based on my ability to communicate with them.  If they don't speak well, but I can muddle through a conversation without any concern for miscommunication, that's good enough for me.  Likewise, if someone spoke English as a first language, but I couldn't understand them for some reason (talked to fast, too quietly, etc), I wouldn't want to deal with them either.

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  • Cameron Norfleet
    OP
    New Haven, CT · Member since 2013 · 222 posts · 134 votes
    11y

    @J Scott 

    Very good point. A communication barrier is a communication barrier. I'm from Connecticut, I don't know if I'd be able to understand someone with a thick southern accent even though they speak English. Would I rent to them? I don't know.... Food for thought

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Cameron Norfleet I am not going to debate discrimination with you.  I do suggest you request this thread be deleted or at least go back and have your real estate firm deleted from your signature.  One or two reposts of this elsewhere could cause you and your firm lots of trouble.

    Think about this, what if the landlord was non english speaking?   What if the applicant was mute and the landlord was illiterate?  What if some redneck landlord complains about understanding that rif raf hip hop ebonic crap!   Let me know when your case goes to court. The judge will say the applicant was able to make an appointment, fill out an application and your problem is what?  I want to be there when the judge asks the applicant to speak into his smart phone app and it come# back in english,  "This landlord is a dicrimatory *******! "  order, order in the court. LOL. You could have the interpreter print out some basic communications.  Where's the rent?  Maintenance guys will be by (circle day and time).  

    Good ole American ignorance.   You're probably not a bad guy.  Dang, is kinky hair a protected class?  Slippery slope.

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    To get technical, non-English speaking applicants are not a protected class, are they?  For that matter, are English-only speaking tenant applicants a protected class?  What about landlords who speak only Chinese?  Are they required to rent to English speaking tenants? I think not.  Seems like language is not a protected class.

    IMO where it gets tricky is where language intersects with disability.  I don't think you can lawfully refuse to rent to someone who speaks only American Sign Language or someone who has to have an interpreter or requires assistive devices to communicate due to disability. The law requires that landlords make accommodations for disabilities.  But being required to communicate with a tenant in language other than or your own or through an interpreter seems like a big accommodation.

    Can someone summon Marcia Maynard?  I think she may have some insight.

    2Reply
  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Cameron Norfleet I am not going to debate discrimination with you.  I do suggest you request this thread be deleted or at least go back and have your real estate firm deleted from your signature.  One or two reposts of this elsewhere could cause you and your firm lots of trouble.

    Here are the illegal reasons to discriminate:

  • color
  • race
    • • religion

    • sex

    • national origin

    • disability

    • familial status

    Language is not on that list.  Certainly, if the communication barrier is disability related, that would be illegal discrimination.  But, the OP didn't indicate a disability, just an inability to speak a language.

    Like I said, I'm not an attorney -- I could be wrong! 

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  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
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    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
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    In my market...Washington DC...this actually would not be totally out of the ordinary.  We have plenty of qualified rental applicants in this area that do not speak english and work at one of the embassies.  These applicants usually have a high housing allowance from their embassy, so I would rent to them in a heartbeat.  But again this is specific to the DC market.

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  • Jen Kurtz
    Professional · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2013 · 88 posts · 42 votes
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    I am wondering how this couple is currently conducting business and going about their lives if they do not understand any English. If they are employed, there has to be SOME way they are communicating, wouldn't you agree? Unless they work for an employer that speaks their native language. You can however, ask for a federal number if they do not have a SS number. Anyone can apply for a federal number and they do not have to be a US citizen.

    If they do have an interpreter, I wouldn't worry about them having a fall out with the interpreter- that can be likened to worrying about your tenant losing their job after they move in. Some things after that approved application you cannot prevent or anticipate, of course. 

    My advice would be just like what was stated above, not treating anyone differently. That's how discrimation comes into play. You should hold them to the same established selection criteria, including all documents you require (pay stubs, landlord references, etc). If they cannot complete the application (for any reason), they are disqualified just like anyone else with an incomplete application or fall outside of your already established criteria. 

    If the couple are great candidates otherwise, I wouldn't pass on them just because of your concerns about their ability to communicate. They are the ones responsible for their affairs. When calling their prior landlord, ask he or she what their preferred method of communication was too!

    1Reply
  • Ben Leybovich
    Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    I would rent to them if there was an English-speaking co-signer who'd be on the hook.  Communication barrier is an issue, as @J Scott points out.  And to your follow-up point, English with accent is still English - while it may be a bit difficult to understand, it's never impossible as in the case of non-English speaker.

    So - is inability to communicate in English a protected class?  I am not an attorney, but I'd think not.  The point is that you wouldn't be discriminating due to lack of knowledge of English, but rather due to a communication barrier.

    Naturally, this barrier is removed with an English-speaking co-signer.  So, there you go.

    2Reply
  • Jen Kurtz
    Professional · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2013 · 88 posts · 42 votes
    11y

    Good call with the English speaking cosigner Ben!

    1Reply
  • Dawn AnastasiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    So if someone who was deaf wanted to apply to your unit, and they had an interpreter (because you did not know sign language), would you refuse to rent to them as well?

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  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
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    Originally posted by @Dawn Anastasi:

    So if someone who was deaf wanted to apply to your unit, and they had an interpreter (because you did not know sign language), would you refuse to rent to them as well?

    I'm pretty sure that would qualify as a disability, which is protected from discrimination based on the specific disability.  So, that would be illegal.

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    Read this recent case from HUD. Even though language is not a protected class HUD went after after a landlord that denied tenancy based on a language barrier.

    http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/press/press_releases_media_advisories/2013/HUDNo.13-006

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  • Dawn AnastasiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    Okay, a deaf person would be considered disabled.  But you still can't discriminate against someone because they don't speak English if they have an interpreter.  

    Here is a case from the HUD website from 2013 for a Virginia company that had to pay a $82,500 settlement because they refused to rent to a Hispanic woman who didn't speak English.

    The Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in the rental of housing on the basis of national origin.

    “Denying housing because a person does not speak English well violates the Fair Housing Act,” said John Trasviña, HUD Assistant Secretary for Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity. “This settlement reaffirms HUD’s commitment to combating discrimination against a person because of their national origin or the language they speak.”

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    @J Scott Read the above case and see what you think. HUD didn't actually cite language as a protected class. Language was lumped together with discrimination based on "national origin". I see similar distinctions in employment discrimination cases too. Which is more troubling to me than housing. Am I really required to hire someone otherwise qualified who truly can't communicate with me?

    But this is good news for some communities where English-only speaking applicants get shunned....of which there are plenty in CA.

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  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
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    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @J Scott Read the above case and see what you think. HUD didn't actually cite language as a protected class. Language was lumped together with discrimination based on "national origin". I see similar distinctions in employment discrimination cases too. Which is more troubling to me than housing. Am I really required to hire someone otherwise qualified who truly can't communicate with me?

    But this is good news for some communities where English-only speaking applicants get shunned....of which there are plenty in CA.

    Yup, I was clearly wrong.

    And I appreciate you and Dawn digging up the case law.  Will save some of us from getting ourselves in trouble!

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @J Scott Read the above case and see what you think. HUD didn't actually cite language as a protected class. Language was lumped together with discrimination based on "national origin". I see similar distinctions in employment discrimination cases too. Which is more troubling to me than housing. Am I really required to hire someone otherwise qualified who truly can't communicate with me?

    But this is good news for some communities where English-only speaking applicants get shunned....of which there are plenty in CA.

    Yup, I was clearly wrong.

    And I appreciate you and Dawn digging up the case law.  Will save some of us from getting ourselves in trouble!

    Well, I don't see that you or I were clearly wrong. In the case cited I see that HUD is treating language as a protected class but not defining it as such. That creates confusion, at least for me. National origin and language seem separate to me.

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jen Kurtz:

    Good call with the English speaking cosigner Ben!

     That would more than likely not be looked upon favorably by the courts either.

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