Ethics & Discrimination…. A question of Right vs Right!!
New Haven, CT · Member since 2013 · 222 posts · 134 votes
Ok so I was having this debate with a local landlord and I’d like to hear your opinion…. You charge $25 for your application fee. You show the house to a nice couple and they want to apply but they don’t speak, read or write English. They have an interpreter there to help them fill out the application and the interpreter would also be there to help them understand and sign your lease agreement if they’re granted the rental. And of course you don’t speak their language. Would you automatically disqualify them? If so, would you still take their $25 application fee knowing that they’re not going to get the rental? Let’s keep in mind that we’re all ETHICAL investors AND we don’t want to be sued for DISCRIMINATION.
Okay, a deaf person would be considered disabled. But you still can't discriminate against someone because they don't speak English if they have an interpreter.
Here is a case from the HUD website from 2013 for a Virginia company that had to pay a $82,500 settlement because they refused to rent to a Hispanic woman who didn't speak English.
The Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in the rental of housing on the basis of national origin.
“Denying housing because a person does not speak English well violates the Fair Housing Act,” said John Trasviña, HUD Assistant Secretary for Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity. “This settlement reaffirms HUD’s commitment to combating discrimination against a person because of their national origin or the language they speak.”
Well, I don't see that you or I were clearly wrong. In the case cited I see that HUD is treating language as a protected class but not defining it as such. That creates confusion, at least for me. National origin and language seem separate to me.
Actually, after reading the HUD document, I'm still not sure where the OP would stand on his specific question...
In the case mentioned, it was noted that the tenant wasn't fluent and didn't speak English well. I wonder if HUD would take a different stance on someone who didn't speak English at all.
The HUD ruling in this case seems perfectly reasonable to me; ruling the same thing for a tenant that speaks NO English would seem much less reasonable to me. That said, I assume HUD tends to be more tenant-friendly than landlord-friendly, so I guess the same ruling for a non-English speaker wouldn't surprise me.
WOW - I had no idea. Thanks @Dawn Anastasi ! Saved me some headache...
Well, I don't see that you or I were clearly wrong. In the case cited I see that HUD is treating language as a protected class but not defining it as such. That creates confusion, at least for me. National origin and language seem separate to me.
Actually, after reading the HUD document, I'm still not sure where the OP would stand on his specific question...
In the case mentioned, it was noted that the tenant wasn't fluent and didn't speak English well. I wonder if HUD would take a different stance on someone who didn't speak English at all.
The HUD ruling in this case seems perfectly reasonable to me; ruling the same thing for a tenant that speaks NO English would seem much less reasonable to me. That said, I assume HUD tends to be more tenant-friendly than landlord-friendly, so I guess the same ruling for a non-English speaker wouldn't surprise me.
There's also the accommodation issue. The tenant applicant brought an interpreter that the LL refused to work with. And it appears they had a policy of not letting non-English speaking applicants fill out applications outside the office. If they were allowing English speakers to take away the applications, they were going to go down on that. You have to treat all applicants the same. Except for the part where you have to accept interpreters for some. :)
C'mon, how could anyone say this is clear and easy to understand. Since when is national origin and language the same thing?
Here is my concern , if they don't speak English they are signing an English lease so I agree with the person who suggested a co-signer. Otherwise they can likely claim they did not know the terms of what they were signing. I require some of my applicants to have co-signers anyway. If you have an English speaking co-signer at least you have someone who could hopefully read the document. Doesn't solve the communication problem though. and the point is not the one this HUD official is quoting that the person does not speak English well the example was about someone who didn't speak English at all.
One point in the HUD case that may be relevant, and is different from the OP. It says the woman did not speak fluent English. There is a difference between non-English speaking and "not fluent". Someone who is not fluent in a language may be able to communicate at an adequate level to meet the tenancy requirements. That would make it appear to be due to her national origin, which is protected. Could that be the distinction HUD is making? I hope so, because I agree with @K. Marie Poe that it is an undefined class being presented as protected.
Well, here's more from HUD on "national origin" where language is clearly lumped in as a protected class. From a press release in 2011:
"The Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in rental, sales or home lending transactions based on a person's national origin. This includes discrimination based on a person's ancestry, country of birth outside the United States, and the language they speak. National origin discrimination often involves immigrants or non-English speaking individuals, but can also involve native-born U. S. citizens based on their family ancestry. This type of discrimination may also occur in conjunction with the other protections of the Fair Housing Act against race, color, religion, gender, disability, and family status discrimination."
Note that there is no mention of level of fluency or how communication is to be established or accommodated. Just that you can't discriminate against someone based on language.
A worry with expanding the HUD case to say it includes you must do accommodations for language is would you then have to have your materials translated for a non English speaking tenant? I am seeing a possible challenge to a 3-day notice to pay or quit that isn't in a language they can read.
Folks -
I apologize for the inappropriate bickering that detracted from this thread. I've removed the inappropriate posts (half of which were my own). Now back to the topic...
Language and national origin are tied together. A person from France we assume speaks French. If you refuse to consider French speakers you are discriminating against people from France. Don't really need the law to know this but it is probably good we have such laws. Thanks, Matt
Good call with the English speaking cosigner Ben!
That would more than likely not be looked upon favorably by the courts either.
I can see now too how that could get hairy, unless the couple fit into another reason within the application that would warrant them to require a consignor. Because if they fit a reason to have a consignor (not having to even reference a language barrier) it would still assist in communicating past the barrier, wouldn't you agree?
Otherwise, I would go with what I had posted the first time- which is treat them the same in your tenant selection criteria and communicate with the translator. I recently had a couple who spoke only Spanish apply at my tax credit property. It was a little difficult to explain the restrictions we have on eligibility for the program and all the additional paperwork that is necessary beyond a market rate rental. We had the help of a couple different translators for them- one a friend and another a family member. Their application was good and they could have certainly moved in had they not made too much money. They exceeded the income limits for their household size established by HUD for the tax credit program.
A worry with expanding the HUD case to say it includes you must do accommodations for language is would you then have to have your materials translated for a non English speaking tenant? I am seeing a possible challenge to a 3-day notice to pay or quit that isn't in a language they can read.
I've been reading about this very thing for CA. I didn't find anything that says the LL must provide written application materials in the applicant's language.
So far what I've gathered: If you engage in English with the tenant applicant through an interpreter who speaks English fluently and is over 18, then the application and lease agreement is ok in English. All further communication is ok in English. If you engage in Spanish and have the tenant sign a lease agreement in Spanish, then all further notices much be in Spanish. In other words you can't rent in Spanish and evict in English. A tenant who signs a Spanish language lease agreement can challenge a 3-day notice written in English. Which makes sense to me.
@Account Closed I think you've taken it a bit too far. I don't see any reason for me to have this discussion removed. Nor do I see a reason that I'd end up in court. Again, you're putting extra factors into this. This was an actual incident that occurred. The only factors that I know of were the factors that I presented here. The landlord and I had a discussion and I decided to ask the opinion of BP. I never even gave my opinion on here. It's a discussion dude.... Relax.
@Ben Leybovich @Jen Kurtz @Russell Brazil @J Scott @Account Closed Great Points!!
Well, I personally would not disqualify a tenant because they had communication issues. For one, I rarely communicate with tenants. Second, I mostly communicate via email or text more so then voice/tongue, and from personal experience many immigrants with inferior spoken English are better in reading/writing English. But for a contractor? That is constant communication and a small misunderstanding can lead to a huge setback I probably going to have an issue hiring a contractor who can't effectively communicate with me.
Back to the non-English speaking applicants, I would be more concerned with them signing the English lease via the interpreter and may not be 100% aware of what they are signing. The standard FAR RLHD-3 form has a disclosure page with a relevant provision.
THIS FORM WAS COMPLETED WITH THE ASSISTANCE OF...
Now this is mostly used when a realtor is helping a client filling it out but may also cover the case when a Spanish speaking paralegal may be helping a Spanish speaking applicant. At the bottom of the disclosure there is a space for the landlord and/or tenant to sign:
As far as cases against those discriminating against non-English speakers is this a state or federal thing? I understand Louisiana has both English and French as official languages and New Mexico is both English and Spanish right? Hawaii's official language is Hawaiian not English, and Puerto Rico's Spanish. Many states do not even have an "official" language so perhaps "not renting to someone because he speaks Spanish" is a little different from "not renting to someone because he does not speak your language".
I do think it is a slippery slope.
Bottom line folks.... This is all a slippery slope. I knew this would be a great discussion. Everybody has an opinion on this. I actually learned a lot here. I said that J Scott's earlier post was "food for thought". Well there's been A LOT of great food for thought on here. I hope I'm not the only one that learned something here.
I never gave my opinion on here and I never said what advice I gave the guy that asked me this question, but if anyone cares, I told him to just play it safe and consider the applicant's application just like anyone else's because there is a good possibility that this would easily be misconstrued as racial discrimination. I've known him for years so I know that he's not a racist but it would be kinda hard to explain that to a judge. Unfortunately he's not on BP yet. But hopefully he'll be on here tomorrow when I tell him about all of the info in this thread.
Je ne vois pas le problème. Nous avons fréquemment des locataires qui parlent une langue autre que l'anglais ou français.
We have a house - 9 rooms in two units - where are tenants are all international students, communication with them can be challenging, but we always manage.
We also work with the local multicultural association and rent units - especially short term rentals during the off season when our students are away - to refugees and immigrants.
Last year we have a lady and her seven year old boy who fled Syria stay with us. We had other tenants who spoke Arabic who helped us communicate initially ... after 4-months, the seven year old had a fairly good command of English and French. The year before we had a family from Iran stay with us and called upon an acquaintance in the local community who spoke Persian to assist - once again, six months down the road, the kids were speaking English and French in addition to Persian and Gilaki.
Legality and moral matters aside, it's being business lazy to disqualify potential tenants simply because you do not speak their language.
A worry with expanding the HUD case to say it includes you must do accommodations for language is would you then have to have your materials translated for a non English speaking tenant? I am seeing a possible challenge to a 3-day notice to pay or quit that isn't in a language they can read.
Here, if materials are to be translated into a language other than one of Canada's official languages, the application would/could be require to pay for the translation. Typically we work with the multicultural association to ensure we and the applicants have ready access to a pool of bilingual individuals in the community who can assist.
KMP:
Here in Canada, and most places in Europe where I have worked, language is considered a component of ethnicity and/or nation of origin.
If you were moving to France or Belgium would you consider it appropriate to be denied accommodations because you do not speak French, Dutch or German?
KMP:
Here in Canada, and most places in Europe where I have worked, language is considered a component of ethnicity and/or nation of origin.
If you were moving to France or Belgium would you consider it appropriate to be denied accommodations because you do not speak French, Dutch or German?
To me nationality and language are more complicated. Which language goes with which "ethnicity" or nation of origin? My ex-husband is Belgian. My current partner has a Swedish passport but isn't Swedish and speaks several languages. My children have Hispanic names. One of their fathers is named Pablo and he doesn't speak Spanish. Care to guess his nation of origin or native language?
To be honest I'm glad to learn that language is, in fact, a protected class, in spite of HUD's failure to define it specifically as such. It means that English is not the issue. Rather, landlords and employers may not discriminate against any prospective tenant or applicant that does not speak THEIR language. It means the Chinese speaking landlord in Chinatown cannot deny the English speaking applicant. Good stuff.
Wow... from this thread I have learned that language is a protected class. Thank you @Dawn Anastasi ... I've learned that it doesn't matter the topic for @J Scott and @Account Closed to spar... I've learned that even though @Cameron Norfleet was asking a question without stating his opinion, someone can threaten to publish it against his firm... and lastly, I've learned that even if a landlord hasn't discriminated, his ignorance can still be shown. Unbelievable.
Lol Well put @Jon Huber
Well... I came home from work (where I work as a professional interpreter) and discovered this thread. It brings up memories for me of similar discussions we had during the time I worked as the Manager of Accessibility Services for a large medical center. We had 100 patients a day who did not speak English for whom we provided interpreter services, through my department.
From my perspective....@Don Coumbs and @Roy N. are spot on. Thank you to @K. Marie Poe and @Dawn Anastasi too for doing some research on the topic. Good discussion overall!
What hasn't been answered: In which language must the landlord do business? What about our applications, lease agreements, notices, etc.? Spoken versus written communication?
My answer is: We do business in the language of the jurisdiction in which the rental property is located. Our legal documents will be in that language. Our courts will expect such. We are under no obligation to provide written materials in any another language. To do so for some language groups and not others might even be deemed discriminatory.
In addition, we will attempt to communicate in a language readily understood by our tenants by allowing the use of qualified interpreters (spoken language) and qualified translators (written language) if necessary. Our goal will be to achieve effective communication.... not necessarily ideal communication. This goal can be achieved in a number of ways, including the use gestures, pictures, spoken word and written word.
We have rented successfully to English speakers, limited English speakers, and non-English speakers. We have worked successfully with multicultural associations and community service agencies, professional interpreters and ad-hoc interpreters for the language support services we've needed.
When it comes to legal documents, I only work with qualified language specialists. I prefer those documents to be sight-translated... that means the document is read from the source language (in our case, English) and interpreted verbally (for spoken languages) or visually (for signed languages) into the target language (the language of the tenant). If the tenant wants to take written notes in their preferred language, they are welcome to do so.
We do not rely on family members to interpret or translate legal communications. We do not rely on children to interpret or translate important communications. We know that unqualified individuals who are put into the interpreter or translator role will often add and delete information, counsel and advise, and interject personal opinion.
For us, English speaking family members do prove helpful in bridging the communication gap for many routine, less serious communications. Rarely do we have a tenant who knows no English. I will attempt to communicate in English and I may also learn a few key phrases in the preferred language of our tenant too.
When we need the services of qualified language specialists, who pays for them? Sometimes a multicultural center, sometimes a community agency, sometimes the tenant, and sometimes we do. When we pay for the services, it is just a cost of doing business and we absorb it. It hasn't been onerous. Since we use a multifaceted approach to achieve effective communication, we often achieve our needs with spending very little money.
Thanks, @Account Closed for the great info.
Thank-you for that ... more eloquent and thorough than my prior attempt.
The reason for mentioning the children of our tenants and the rate at which they become proficient in English or French was to illustrate that non-English speaking tenants quite likely will not remain non-English speaking tenants.
We do not rely on the children for interpreting important communications, but frequently must rely on ad-hoc interpreters as professional interpretation, in many instances, is simply not available in our area (it can be available over the phone or via video from MTL, but that often does not work as well).
We too conduct business and provide written communications only in the languages of the jurisdiction (here we have two).
To me it is simply good business sense to try and accommodate your customer, particularly when it is often quite easy to do.
@Account Closed
Yes, it is both complicated and simple. The ratio is seldom one-to-one, countries frequently have more than one "official" language and several more historical regional or ethnic languages which are acknowledged, but not recognised as official languages.
My personal experience from my business travels has been that we North American anglophones, as a whole, are culturally among the least willing to accommodate allophones in our "home", but conversely carry an unrealistic expectation to be accommodated in English when away from "home". Thankfully, there are always exceptions.
@Bill Gulley This was an actual occurrence that a landlord was asking me about. He wasn't sure if he did the right thing. You're adding factors that weren't present. Based on the info that I gave, are you saying that he should rent to them if they qualify on paper, regardless of the language barrier? I do think that you have a good point about having the interpreter as the main point of contact but what happens if the tenants and the interpreter have a falling out and he no longer wants to interpret for them, or he no longer has their best interest at heart?
Have no idea how this hit 65 posts, great, haven't read the comments, just address this mention.
Most Americans I've met, those born in the states, speak English, perhaps not very well, but they communicate. Usually, those who don't speak English at all are people who are not of the national origin from the United States. Discrimination based on national origin is illegal.
It is not a LL's responsibility to identify any language or national origin, the fact that they may not be of a certain origin is basis enough to base a discrimination claim.
Take language out of the picture, what about someone who can not speak at all? Maybe deaf, do you (they) sign? If you don't sign, you can't communicate effectively. Discrimination based on any physical or mental disability is also illegal.
Your ability to communicate with any tenant is not a qualifying matter, it is irrelevant legally, yes, it might be a pain in your tail to lease to them, landlords are in the business world, not their own little designer world where they can only rent to people they like, will never have an issue with or put them out requiring a bit more effort. If a landlord resides in the same home, like renting the upstairs, then you can limit who you rent to, avoid all discrimination issues and only select, say, single females between the ages of 25 to 35 who are swim suit models.
So, yes, if they qualify on "paper" you better rent to them just like anyone else. :)
Okay, a deaf person would be considered disabled. But you still can't discriminate against someone because they don't speak English if they have an interpreter.
Here is a case from the HUD website from 2013 for a Virginia company that had to pay a $82,500 settlement because they refused to rent to a Hispanic woman who didn't speak English.
The Fair Housing Act prohibits discrimination in the rental of housing on the basis of national origin.
“Denying housing because a person does not speak English well violates the Fair Housing Act,” said John Trasviña, HUD Assistant Secretary for Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity. “This settlement reaffirms HUD’s commitment to combating discrimination against a person because of their national origin or the language they speak.”
The article stated she was not proficient in English. If the prospect could not speak english and did not have anyone to help her fill in the app that might have been legal. If you cannot communicate whatsoever then it would be impossible to consummate any transaction of any kind. In my current situation I have new tenants now that I have difficulty understanding. They did fill in an application, had a good credit score, etc. It is not easy to understand them...and them understand me..but we get by. The one thing I never discriminate against is green US currency:)