Tenant called the Police

Padma Mody · 2014-12-31T13:42:48-08:00

I bought house in Sept 2014 and it was rented with month to month lease with section 8. During November, Section 8 did yearly inspection and find out that HVAC is not working properly. We hire the HVAC guy and ask him to fix the problem. He told us that, this old HVAC is very old and its not possible to fix. So, we contacted Section 8 and told them the fact. They told us and tenant that, tenant can't live in this house and last day is 31st Dec. This is all section 8 decision to cancel the lease. We as a landlord agreed with section 8 and told tenant to move on or before 31st Dec. Since then, tenant is very angry at us. First she did not pay her portion for Dec and stop replying our emails. On one Saturday, we stop by and knock the door and she did not open the door (her car was not there) so we left. Within a few minutes, she emailed us - -You will get your rent and do you think that me and my son are going to just sleep on a street corner!? Why would you harass me about turning over the keys when you told me we have to be out December 31, 2014 which is less than a 30 day notice.So we contacted section 8 and they send her a letter and told her to pay the past due rent. Same day she called us during an evening and told us that she don't have money to hire the lawyer!! And finally, she paid rent on 24th Dec which is 24 days late. Yesterday, on 30th, we emailed her and ask her - -Please advise of the time when you'll have moved out tomorrow, so we can coordinate the time to receive the keys from you. Again, she did not answered our email and I was in the same area this afternoon, so I decided to stop by and ask her the time to pick up the key. I went alone and but kept my phone video on and took video. I went to the house and knock the door. No body answer the door so I check the door knob and it was lock. I see the u-haul truck was parked and some items near the mail box. I captured everything in the video. When I was driving back home, same time, police called and talk to my husband! She called police and told that landlord is harassing her. My husband told all details to police and he told police that because she did not reply to our email that's why I stop by to find out the time to pick up the key. My question is - What is next now? Both time she was not home and her neighbor told her about our present at the property. Do you think, once she move out, we will have hard time from the neighbor? Should I complain to section 8 about her that she called police?

Account Closed

Troy, NY · Member since 2011 · 32 posts · 19 votes

11y

@Padma Mody

"I bought house in Sept 2014"...

Did you have it inspected? Ask for maintenance/mechanical records from previous owner? Ask if anything was updated? Needs updating? Inspect it yourself? Do your due diligence?

2 Reply

Mike HurneyPro Member

Real Estate Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 542 votes

11y

@K. Marie Po

I don't think two visits in a month, for someone you're not sure is moving, is too much. They tried calling and emailing.

2 Reply

Russell BrazilBusiness Member

Moderator

Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes

11y

I would assume a functioning HVAC is a requirement in Florida....it certainly is here in Maryland. If the HVAC were not able to be repaired while someone was living there, then I as a landlord in Maryland would be responsible for putting the tenant up in a hotel till it was fixed. I would be very surprised if this were not also the case in Florida. When you purchase a property, even if it is already rented, you purchase all the problems, responsibilities and liabilities that go along with renting this property.

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3 Reply

Lubasha White

Saint Petersburg, FL · Member since 2013 · 39 posts · 3 votes

11y

Seems that it was not a good buy for the landlord. Even if the house is livable and tenant used to live in it before it changed hands, technically new owner is still responsible for conditions of the property. By any rule landlord is in charge in this situation and try to work it out with tenant on personal level nicely would be best for landlord. Since section 8 required tenant to move out, in order to keep her benefits she will have to comply. Just give her a chance to go on with her life without major loss for her side.

And yes, landlord is lucky that section 8 shielded him from tenant eviction process.

1 Reply

Account Closed

Contractor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 651 posts · 510 votes

11y

@Padma Mody My problem with your first post is that it seemed disingenuous.

Your gave the impression that she was being forced out by section 8 due to an irreparable HVAC system. That if it could have been fixed, she'd have been able to stay. That's why you got so many responses regarding it's repair.

Perhaps it's just in the way you wrote it but if you wanted her out so you could renovate, you should have just said so in your first post. I see nothing wrong with that, as long as you gave her proper notice, etc.

I also have no issue with you going there to see if she had vacated. I would have done the same thing.

@Account Closed because this is a "landlord site" are we to always side with the landlord? I agree that discourse should always be civil but I think this is a great site because we can get honest peer feedback regarding our decisions and practices as landlords. I don't want people here to ever automatically side with me out of a sense of filial duty. Don't you agree?

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Gail K.

Augusta, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

11y

What Padma is asking is what should he (I'm assuming this is a he) do now that the police were called.

I'd suggest...nothing regarding this call.

It was explained why they were checking on their property.

Since it was the housing authority that terminated the contract (and again, I'm assuming it was terminated to end December 31st), I would contact them tomorrow to let them know that the tenant had not returned the keys or moved out as of January 1st and is now considered a "holdover" tenant because of this.

This caseworker assigned to this tenant is very likely going to point out to them they are in danger of losing their voucher over their failure to vacate the property by the required deadline (if there was such a deadline). If no deadline, they owe rent for January, 2015.

Gail

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Joel OwensBusiness Member

Moderator

Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes

11y

Section 8 has LIVABILITY standards for their people in the program. This is why inspections are completed to keep landlords honest and not to abuse the system ( fix or maintain nothing and keep cashing checks ). The case worker is telling you that it is not safe for them to stay there so they are telling them to move to another property. Sounds like the tenant wants to stay and is not happy having to move elsewhere.

In some states having an A/C is not common but I live in GA and I know in FL also it gets VERY HOT during the summer. If there is not an A/C working people could have a heat stroke or a number of other issues. Also the property would overly sweat on the inside causing other problems. In those states there is an A/C in almost every property.

Padma did you have an inspection on this property?? It doesn't sound like you did. You would have known about garage conversion issues and the flat roof with A/C issues.

In court judges look at buyers "right to their own inquiry" before they make a purchase. This means if the buyer could have gotten an inspection that would have revealed issues and they chose not to then they do not have a basis now for a claim. The buyer could have done a number of actions for discovery to mitigate the problem ahead of time. There are items however where active concealment by a seller with "intent to fraud" would still make a seller liable but there is a high level of proof needed in court for that.

Either way this should have been planned for better. If you had the inspection and knew about the issue then you should have planned before buying that there would be an A/C replacement and tenant vacancy and rent losses until you get it corrected and re-rented again. That should have been reflected in a lower offer price.

If you thought hey this is a GOOD deal and property is cheap and I will forego some due diligence items and planning that that falls on you in that case.

I disagree with others about banging the door down and trying to go inside and all of that. That is practicing a SELF-HELP eviction and can cost you thousands of dollars in fines for trying that crap. Section 8 especially has additional protections with going through the eviction process in court over a standard tenant. You need to get heavily acquainted with the landlord tenant laws of your state.

Tenants have a "right to quiet enjoyment". In instances of an emergency right away like water is flooding the apartment, fire, medical emergency a landlord generally has a right to enter the property. You would need to make sure appropriate language is in the lease. Typically just for a routine inspection or other issues you tape a notice to the door with 24hr notice.

I also would not go in the door without consent. If it looks like they are still living there they could claim you stole something of high value or if the parent wasn't home and a minor only was there that something occurred.

If you go even if they are there you need another party for a witness in case a situation happens.

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No legal advice.

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Account Closed

Troy, NY · Member since 2011 · 32 posts · 19 votes

11y

Originally posted by @Padma Mody:

@Account Closed - It is better you read the post again and think twice. The previous owner rent the house not me. I did not sell any faulty product.

@Bob E. - I called two AC repair company and they told us that they can't do anything. If they try to fix it and it breaks - stop working they can't guarantee for this unit. AC is working but in some part of the house its not blowing the air. Both company advice us that it's not worth to fix this unit. This house is in a Orlando area and her we don't have basement and since this is a old house this house has flat rood means no attic.

If you received payment, then you must have sold something - In this case, money for a habitable apt. It doesn't matter if the previous owner initially contracted with the tenant - as soon as you took ownership and accepted payment each month, you agreed to the terms. Those terms were not fulfilled when the HVAC system was no longer in working condition. You found out that in Nov, yet appears to have asked for full months rent for Dec. as requested by Sec. 8 letter to tenant. Now the tenant has been forced to move and pay rent for an apt. she can no longer live in. If you don't want to have a hard time with neighbor, or have the tenant badmouth to everyone about her previous landlord (you) - return the money, move on and focus on fixing the HVAC.

0 Reply

Paul Ewing

Investor · Boyd, TX · Member since 2014 · 688 posts · 467 votes

11y

The proper thing to have done would have been to replace the HVAC unit if it couldn't have been repaired which can be done fairly quickly. If there are no easy ways to climate control the converted sections from the central unit, it wouldn't have been difficult to have gone with a window unit for AC and wall mounted space heater.

I don't think that option would have even been considered though. My reading is he got the place cheap, plans to renovate it now that he drove the inherited Section 8 tenant out, and will rent it for much more in a couple months. Not the behavior I want associated with landlords but happens way too often.

1 Reply

Dave Toelkes

Investor · Pawleys Island, SC · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 837 votes

11y

@Padma Mody

You don't really need the keys. You have a spare key, and, you are going to change the locks as soon as your tenant vacates, right?

The HVAC failure created an unfortunate situation for you. Since you can't replace the HVAC system and meet the new codes without a major renovation, the Housing Authority deemed your property uninhabitable and is not allowing the tenant to remain in the property under the Section 8 program. The tenant could still choose to stay but would lose her Section 8 voucher.

I think you could have handled the situation better. If I were in your place, I would have waived the last month's rent for the inconvenience and offered the tenant a full refund of her security deposit when she turned over the keys.

At this point, you still need to figure out some diplomatic way to get your tenant's forwarding address so you can mail the security deposit refund.

0 Reply

Padma Mody

OP

Investor · Oviedo, FL · Member since 2014 · 90 posts · 5 votes

11y

@Joel Owens - Yes, we had inspection done and we also had some talk with tenant for future renovations which we plan to do. But we were going to do in stages. We planned to fix the AC and that time provide motel room to tenant. But section 8 didn't hear anyone and just send us a letter that lease will be end 31st Dec. In this situation, we had no any options...

You are right that in FL you need AC. I don't know about the law but I prefer to have AC and ceiling fan where ever needed. I always install fan in the bedrooms and family room.

I have 3 other properties and when I bought all were empty so I fix all problems and updated all properties before I rented. I hired contractor to do the all work. Even in my last house which is in a C- area, I have kitchen with granite counter tops! I always think like my family is moving to the house. I never compromise for any materiel like tile, cabinets, electrical work or even paint. And all work is done with city permit.

I never went inside the house. I knock the door and when I knock the door, it felt like it is open that's why I check the knob. I took a video as soon as I came out the car. I never went to my any house without calling my tenant.

0 Reply

Bradley Bogdan

Investor · Eureka, CA · Member since 2014 · 233 posts · 222 votes

11y

@Padma Mody you could have definitely kept the tenant if you had wanted to. You may not have been aware, but all you had to do to was negotiate a reasonably quick timeline with the PHA to make repairs/renovations to fix/replace the HVAC and assure them you would be meeting the letter of the law in proving other accommodations for the tenants during any time where the unit would not be inhabitable due to the work being performed. The tenant would still owe you rent like normal, you would continue to receive the other portion of rent like normal, and the work would be completed.

While a bit over the top, I don't think you should take the police being called too personally. You didn't have a right to enter the unit without proper notice as there was no obvious emergency, and someone trying the door handle definitely would freak me out if I were a tenant inside. Protect yourself and post proper notice that you'll be entering the unit at X time on X date and they won't be able to complain at all. Remember, even if they're past the point of PHA payments ending, they're still residents of the unit until they leave, meaning they have legal rights until they leave or are evicted. Those vary state to state, so consult your local legal resources, but just because its Jan. 2nd doesn't mean you can bust in with no notice.

Finally, you do have the option to work out an agreement with the tenant for them to stay, off the program, for an agreed period of time or until they find a place. IMHO, this would have seemed like the humane thing to do considering they didn't seem to have all that much time to locate and secure a new rental (which can be difficult for even the best tenants with a voucher). The PHA just notified you that they would stop paying you as of Dec. 31 because you were not providing a unit with the minimum level of services under your agreement with them, not that the tenant was evicted. Because of this, I would also check with your legal resources to make sure that you didn't need to post appropriate notice for them to leave, I suspect you did. Remember, the tenant signs a lease with you (or the previous owner), even when they have a voucher. Even when the voucher lapses, the voucher payments to the landlord are suspended/cancelled, etc, the lease itself is still in effect. It doesn't just magically disappear.

Please don't take any of the criticism here personally, the folks here are (usually) critical of folks in an honest attempt to help people succeed in their investments. In this case, it seems that you didn't totally understand how the voucher program or how rights of entry worked and it potentially placed you in a stickier situation than was necessary. We don't want to see you get burned because of it. Much the opposite, we'd love to see you make the best of a busted HVAC system and succeed so you can share your story the next time someone here is in a similar situation!

PS Not a lawyer, consult your legal resources for local law stuff, yadda, yadda, yadda...

2 Reply

Padma Mody

OP

Investor · Oviedo, FL · Member since 2014 · 90 posts · 5 votes

11y

@Bradley Bogdan - Thanks!

I don't know but many times, I mentioned that - I knock the door. When I went to the house, I even did not had keys for that house with me... So, I never ever entered in the house.

Long story short, thanks everybody for all advise to how to fix the HVAC which I never I ask for it. Two days ago, I had a no idea that what should I do when I get more phone call from police...

Anyway, I got the key today and will post the picture of the repair so nobody blame me that I kick the tenant out.

Again, thanks for everything.

0 Reply

Account Closed

Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes

11y

Originally posted by @Padma Mody:

@Ryan Naylor - It is better you read the post again and think twice. The previous owner rent the house not me. I did not sell any faulty product.

You bought a faulty product........subject to a lease agreement for which you collected rent. Which is the same as selling a faulty product. Were there no inspections prior to purchase? Finding out the condition of the HVAC (a health and safety issue) from a Sec8 inspection is not how you want to manage a rental. Hopefully by rehabbing the unit you can restart your land lording career with a better quality product and better customer service.

0 Reply

Sam Alpha

Rental Property Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2014 · 132 posts · 24 votes

11y

As this thread is slowing, I feel that it may be a good time to post a question without taking over the thread.

My question is:

i) Is a landlord allowed to enter his/her property if the tenant rejects the request to enter

ii) If not, who would the liability fall on, should the owner enter and the tenant cause physical harm

0 Reply

Aly W.

Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

11y

If you give proper notice per your lease, and your tenant still refuses entry, you can (at least in FL) request a civil standby by the police. We've only had to do that once. The few other times a tenant hadrefused entrance when given proper notice, we just mentioned the civil standby and they decided to cooperate.

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Paul Ewing

Investor · Boyd, TX · Member since 2014 · 688 posts · 467 votes

11y

Originally posted by @Sam Alpha:

As this thread is slowing, I feel that it may be a good time to post a question without taking over the thread.

My question is:

i) Is a landlord allowed to enter his/her property if the tenant rejects the request to enter

ii) If not, who would the liability fall on, should the owner enter and the tenant cause physical harm

If the tenant is present and refuses entry you would be trespassing. In Texas we are required to put special locks on the doors that can only be worked from inside to prevent incidents where a landlord decides to use their key and enter the building while the tenant is inside. I would actually see them not even going to trial for a self defense shooting of the person breaking into the house. If the tenant is not there the rules are much looser. You need to remember when we lease a property, we give up the Right of Possession to the tenant until such time it is given back voluntarily by the tenant or involuntarily by the court following all legal procedures.

1 Reply

Daniel Caruso

Real Estate Investor · Old Bridge, NJ · Member since 2015 · 7 posts · 2 votes

11y

Why do you need the keys? You're not changing the locks for the new tenant post rehab? Cmon

0 Reply

CK Hwang

Capistrano Beach, CA · Member since 2013 · 283 posts · 169 votes

11y

Honestly speaking, I would have handled this completely differently. I would likely have sent a letter something like this

Dear Tenant, thank you for being a wonderful tenant for the last xxx years. As an expression of xyz LLC's gratitude to you paying your rent on time, we would like to offer an upgrade to the house you're currently living in by installing a brand new HVAC system and upgrading the duct work to ensure you're comfortable all year round. Unfortunately this work is likely to cause 2 weeks of noise and dust, however, if it's acceptable to you, you will have a wonderful new HVAC system to enjoy. If you would like us to proceed pleas tick yes in the box below. If you do not wish to proceed, please tick no. However, pleasure understand by ticking no, you will have to put up with a outdated HVAC system which may not give you the temperatures you desire. Thank you.

The great part about this is that you'll still be collecting rent while the house is being rehabbed. No months and months of lost rent. and a happy tenant who knows that by paying rent on time, good things will come.

2 Reply

Marcia Maynard

Investor · Vancouver, WA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

11y

Originally posted by @Padma Mody:

Tenant never reply to my email or our phone call to let us know about the final moving date. As a landlord, I have a right to know when she is moving out. Still today, I have a no idea that when I will get the keys. I have a right to know that when she is moving out so I can call people and start getting quotes for the work.

Was the tenancy scheduled to terminate on December 31, 2014? Were all parties in agreement? In our area if Section 8 pulls their funding because a unit fails to meet their habitability requirements, then it doesn't automatically end the rental agreement that we have with the tenant. We still must follow the landlord-tenant laws for our jurisdiction and serve proper notice. The tenant may be right in that you did not serve her proper notice. She was in fact given little say in the matter, which accounts for her reaction to having her world upended at no fault of her own... and during the holidays too!

I agree it would be best to treat your tenant better and either fix the HVAC (heating, ventilation and air conditioning) problem in a timely manner, or negotiate a move-out for her and compensate her for troubles. There are many components to a HVAC system and it isn't clear what part failed.. the heating, the cooling, or the ventilation. There are many ways to fix HVAC problems without a total rehab and without forcing a move of the tenant.

0 Reply

Account Closed

Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes

11y

Originally posted by @Sam Alpha:

As this thread is slowing, I feel that it may be a good time to post a question without taking over the thread.

My question is:

i) Is a landlord allowed to enter his/her property if the tenant rejects the request to enter

ii) If not, who would the liability fall on, should the owner enter and the tenant cause physical harm

The lease agreement and the state/local laws are what dictate when and how entry is allowed by the landlord. Most leases here state when and how notice will be made (written or posted on the door, 24 hours, etc). You're not asking for permission, you're noticing the tenant that it will happen. Except in the case of property emergency, a tenant has every right to refuse entry to a landlord who has not made proper notice.

There is no civil standby for tenant related matters here. Even with proper notice, if a tenant refuses entry and you call the police in CA, they'll make sure nobody is being harmed and tell you it's a civil matter and walk away. At that point you would need a court order.

0 Reply

Sam Alpha

Rental Property Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2014 · 132 posts · 24 votes

11y

@Paul Ewing I thought that would be the case and for that reason alone, it would not be worth my while turning that lock.

@CK Hwang how manipulatively beautiful.....and that is said as a compliment. You take a bad situation and make it a win-win. I also liked how you drafted the letter which is so leading, that I would assume would give you a very high success rate. Who doesn't want something new for free!

1 Reply

Sam Alpha

Rental Property Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2014 · 132 posts · 24 votes

11y

Thank you for the explanation

@Account Closed

0 Reply

Gary Erdoglyan

Property Manager · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 79 posts · 15 votes

11y

did you get the chance to put up the pictures ?

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Tenant called the Police

Tenant called the Police

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