Section 8-First time landlord and already in trouble! Please help

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Section 8-First time landlord and already in trouble! Please help

Nina V.
Columbia, MD · Member since 2016 · 8 posts · 1 vote

Hi All,

In the process of renting our property, we received many applications. One of them was an aggressive lady on section 8. She assured us she has excellent credit score. My dad who was helping with the process, sent her a text saying that we don't participate in the section 8 "scheme" (poor choice of words, he should have thought it through). She filed a complaint against us to the department of human rights saying we discriminated against her and believe the section 8 program is a scheme. We emailed her an application but she didn't submit it due to the text message. What do I do now? Hire an attorney? What are my rights?

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Matthew Kreitzer
Attorney · Winchester, VA · Member since 2015 · 726 posts · 387 votes
10y

Do not listen to anyone on this website. Full stop. Although there may not be any federal law on the issue of Section 8 discrimination, there may very well be local laws and ordinances that prohibit discrimination based on income sources. DO NOT listen to anyone but a licensed attorney in your state. Immediately seek out a landlord tenant lawyer.

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  • Matthew Paul
    Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    10y

    This is why i dont answer questions by text or email , only verbally .  I list the requirements on the add.  

    The one that always stops the people with vouchers .   " Large 1 acre lawn , tenant is responsible for mowing"

    4Reply
  • Nik S.
    OH · Member since 2014 · 454 posts · 227 votes
    10y

    There's absolutely nothing you need to do.....I highly doubt anything will come to this. Relax and make it a learning lesson. 

    In the unfortunate event that a case is filed then proceed the lawful way....keep in mind, the tenant you offended is simply going to find another S8 friendly apartment...why would she waste her time with fighting with you/trying to get you to rent to her...doesn't make sense...so this will pass by IMHO.

    Also be easy on Dad, he was just trying to help :-)

    2Reply
  • Nikki Grizzle
    Rental Property Investor · Wake Forest, NC · Member since 2016 · 186 posts · 78 votes
    10y

    I do have to agree that while none of us may be Attorneys, I find BP to be the most useful. Being a new investor, I have come across many people looking to take advantage of us. The first thing I do is look through the forums on BP. If I cannot find what I am looking for I simply ask. Everyone has their own opinion on many topics but I have yet to be steered in the wrong direction. Looking into section 8 I noticed that some states are different. I know in NC you do not have to accept section 8 at all. You can even say you do not accept section 8 on your listing. 

    0Reply
  • Phil Earley
    Property Manager · Cumming, GA · Member since 2015 · 261 posts · 199 votes
    10y

    I'm not sure who I'm quoting but this one stuck with me. 

    "you never have to regret what you don't say or write"

    1Reply
  • Logan AllecBusiness Member
    Accountant · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 980 votes
    10y

    Dude, @Matthew Kreitzer, instead of just saying, "Get a local attorney" in nearly every post of yours, how about you give some perspective given your legal background in addition to letting folks know that they really need to seek out a local professional?

    Granted you do not necessarily practice in these folks' locales, and you would of course caveat that, but you could at least offer some perspective in how things work where you practice.  That would be a valuable contribution to this website.  Parroting, "Get a local attorney" is not.

    I for one have benefitted immensely by what others have written on these boards so that I at least had some background and knew at least some questions to ask before consulting with a local professional (be it an attorney, contractor, etc.) on certain issues, which proved to be invaluable to me.  Were all those posts correct?  Heck no.  But I went to that attorney, contractor, etc., as a more informed potential client/customer than I would have been otherwise thanks to the BP community, and that was invaluable, and I know I've saved thousands of dollars as a result.

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  • Matthew Kreitzer
    Attorney · Winchester, VA · Member since 2015 · 726 posts · 387 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Logan Allec:

    Dude, @Matthew Kreitzer, instead of just saying, "Get a local attorney" in nearly every post of yours, how about you give some perspective given your legal background in addition to letting folks know that they really need to seek out a local professional?

    Granted you do not necessarily practice in these folks' locales, and you would of course caveat that, but you could at least offer some perspective in how things work where you practice.  That would be a valuable contribution to this website.  Parroting, "Get a local attorney" is not.

    I for one have benefitted immensely by what others have written on these boards so that I at least had some background and knew at least some questions to ask before consulting with a local professional (be it an attorney, contractor, etc.) on certain issues, which proved to be invaluable to me.  Were all those posts correct?  Heck no.  But I went to that attorney, contractor, etc., as a more informed potential client/customer than I would have been otherwise thanks to the BP community, and that was invaluable, and I know I've saved thousands of dollars as a result.

     I have provided, and continue to provide, such information where I can. The unfortunate part is that many of the legal issues that landlords face are completely on a state by state basis. I would happily offer my own state's approach on these kinds of issues, but I don't think it would be that helpful to whomever is asking the questions. Laws related to consumer protection are mostly local, where it hasn't been addressed by a federal statute. The consumer protection laws of Virginia have zero bearing on a legal issue faced by an individual one state away, let alone on the other side of the country. If anything, providing such information could potentially mislead the least sophisticated of consumers, and my analysis of Virginia law may harm a person if they come to rely on that information. No, when something is local, the only responsible information a person should be providing is "seek a local attorney". 

    If something is federal in nature or common law in nature, I provide significantly more information. You only need look at my indepth overview of bankruptcy law when it comes up. When it is something that isn't steeped in local rules, I comment in far more detail, because I can. If you need me to discuss the FDCPA or the TCPA, which I have done on this website in the past, I will provide significant detail. I will not comment, nor should anyone comment [unless they are a licensed attorney in that state], on the local laws of that particular state; whether that is a state's Landlord/Tenant Act, Consumer Protection Act, or State Fair Housing Act (where it is obvious that a person could come to rely on that information).

    0Reply
  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    10y

    @Nina V. What County/City is the property located in? Hire an attorney IMMEDIATELY. This is a very serious issue, and I almost guarantee you are about to get a big fine, if not worse.  The counties that have source of income as a protected class take this very seriously.

    The people in the thread who have told you to do nothing are very very wrong. This is absolutely a Fair Housing violation in many of the counties in Maryland (Though not all).

    This goes much more beyond using the word "scheme." Saying you do not take section 8 in the counties/cities where source of income is a protected class is no different than saying you do not accept tenants of a particular color or race, or other protected class.

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  • Tyrus Shivers
    Investor · Jessup, MD · Member since 2013 · 437 posts · 180 votes
    10y

    Yes what county or city is the property in. 

    Basically you should be prepared to defend the statement if anything. Section 8 scheme means what? The bureaucracy and red tape of the Housing Choice Voucher program, you do not want to sign a third party governmental contract, be subject to the inspections, the time of waiting for the process, something other than discrimination against the potential applicant. 

    BTW, the entire state of MD is on the way to having "voucher" (no matter which organization) income be a protected class.

    I take all applications and then according to my criteria select the best qualified applicant.

    0Reply
  • Eric Tan
    Rental Property Investor · Park Ridge, IL · Member since 2016 · 67 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    Learning a lot from this forum guys, keep them coming.

    0Reply
  • Doug White
    Realtor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 1 vote
    10y
    Fair Housing is major and in Howard County, MD you can not reject a tenant because of Section 8 status. Section 8 tenancy is very county specific. I would await possible legal action before consulting an attorney and be very careful how you respond to all tenants going forward.
    0Reply
  • Victor N.
    Investor · Meriden, CT · Member since 2013 · 201 posts · 145 votes
    10y

    @Nina V.your dad's response violated the law. He discriminated against the section 8 applicant. You cannot discriminate against an applicant's source of income and section 8 housing vouchers fall into that category / are considered a source of income. 

    Im a landlord who has several section 8 tenants. Do not listen to those who say that no laws were broken because they clearly do not know the law. Also, do not listen to anyone who tells you to take no action because nothing will come of the complaint. If you do a google search will find that some unfortunate landlords were heavily fined for the same mistake.

    Take the complaint seriously. Talk to an attorney. Most major courthouses provide free help from the local bar association. What you have going for you is that you did email an application to the applicant. It's not much but it can help you. If an attorney requests a fee higher than the 1 month rent the tenant is requesting in damages, you may have to settle and maybe offer less.

    If it were me, I would meet with the Dept of Human Rights that contacted you to try an resolve the issue. Worse case you will have to settle and pay the 1 month rent for damages. If you are not comfortable doing that then hire an attorney.

    0Reply
  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    10y

    @Victor N the fines in this case will far exceed one months rent. Fair housing violations in Maryland can go as high as $50,000. This instance is likely to draw a $10,000 fine.

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  • Christina Yoon
    Real Estate Agent · Odenton, MD · Member since 2016 · 35 posts · 5 votes
    10y

    nina,

    In Columbia, source of income is protected class.  Ie. Section 8 vouchers. 

    There are testers out there for realtors to catch us. 

    Get an attorney!!

    0Reply
  • Randi Del Gatto
    Investor · Pineville, NC · Member since 2016 · 12 posts · 4 votes
    10y

    Now I know why I pay a management company! Well worth the 8%. 

    But as someone said above, if your father is not on the deed and not an "agent" of your business then she has no case. I once had a woman tried to sue me because my father let her use a restroom in my store that was only for employees. Once her attorney found that out he told her she didn't have a case. 

    0Reply
  • Victor N.
    Investor · Meriden, CT · Member since 2013 · 201 posts · 145 votes
    10y

    @Russell Brazil, @Nina V. mentioned in her post that "She is seeking one month's rent in damages." 

    So the OP is not facing a monster huge fine, still I wouldnt want to pay. I as mentioned before, I would reach out to the Department of Human Rights that contacted her. They might drop the charges or settle for a lower than 1 month rent amount. The fact that she did send an application to the applicant will help her case. Because the damages sought are "only" 1 month rent, there is no need to go spend more money hiring an attorney. It wouldn't make financial sense.

    0Reply
  • James Gaither
    Vendor · Pasadena, MD · Member since 2016 · 43 posts · 24 votes
    10y
    I echo everything Matthew Kreitzer said. FHA discrimination can be serious. I do practice in your jurisdiction and my firm and I do have cases involving discrimination based upon source of income. As attorneys, we are limited in the information we can provide as we could be exposed to potential issues ourselves for providing legal advice and potentially establishing an attorney-client relationship. While the case may never go anywhere, why wouldn't you consult with an attorney? You are in the business of making money and should be concerned, at least, by anything that may pose a threat to that ability. If you had what you believed could be a serious medical ailment, would you not consider scheduling an appointment with your physician, even if it might be nothing? The cost of finding out you are within your rights is well worth it, and many attorneys will consult for free. I'd bore you to death if I told you of all the cases I have had that could have been resolved easily, at a small expense, but instead blew up because my client sat on the issue.
    2Reply
  • Logan AllecBusiness Member
    Accountant · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 980 votes
    10y

    @James Gaither"I'd bore you to death if I told you of all the cases I have had that could have been resolved easily, at a small expense, but instead blew up because my client sat on the issue."

    I guarantee you that this wouldn't bore anyone on these boards, especially if these cases pertain to landlord-tenant law.  I really wish you attorneys would share more from your years of experience handling these things!

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  • Account Closed
    Woodbury, NJ · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 10 votes
    10y
    "Scheme" as a noun refers to a plan or arrangement to attain something or put an idea in effect. You are safe.
    0Reply
  • Billy Smith
    Shawnee Mission, KS · Member since 2016 · 716 posts · 313 votes
    10y

    I simple say I am not set up for section 8 sorry.

    I act in a professional manner when talking to all clients .Having some one that is not trained talk to potential clients is unwise in so many ways .

    This is serous business I clearly spell it out in my paper work that we do not discriminate in any manner, the go into detail of what that means .

    0Reply
  • Michael Noto
    Real Estate Agent · Southington, CT · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    This is a very complicated issue. If she is filing a lawsuit against you contact an attorney in the state where you are being accused. 

    0Reply
  • John Thedford
    Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    10y

    I got attacked a while back stating we have no requirements to accept section 8. Other posters then stated they did away with section 8 due to cumbersome paperwork, big government intervention, etc. Some were adamant that a landlord MUST accept section 8. This may be a local or state issue. I do know you CANNOT discriminate due to source of income. If I have an applicant getting $1000 month child support, that counts as $1000. However, at least here locally, we are NOT required to participate in section 8 programs. I know some landlord like section 8 and others don't. I DON'T like the government intrusion. Other forms of government intrusion are rent controls. In other areas, local governments make it difficult to evict during certain times of the year, or force the owners to subsidize the eviction process. Did the OP or their agent discriminate by using the word scheme? I hope not. I am sure there will be a few attorneys scheming how to make money off a potential poor choice of words!  I do think the OP needs to verify if a complaint was filed and then decide how to deal with the issues if so.

    0Reply
  • Neil Timmons
    Silver Spring, MD · Member since 2014 · 23 posts · 2 votes
    10y

    @Nina V. Were you able to come to a conclusion with this issue?  Did you consult an attorney and were they able to help?  I hope everything worked out for the best!

    Regards,

    Neil

    0Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    I always laugh when a landlord has a issue and the advice they receive is contact a lawyer. I am not sure what type of landlord business the persons giving that advice operate but it must be prone to legal assault. It's like someone saying contact a doctor every time you get a runny nose.

    Tenants make threats all the time, I receive letters from difficult tenants lawyers all the time. As a landlord you are not breaking laws, codes or regulations with every action you take. I ignore tenants lawyers threats because I know that lawyer is simply fulfilling their clients requests to intimidate their landlord. I have never fallen for the ploy because the wording of the letter clearly indicates they are simply obliging a tenants stupid wishes.

    There is no boogie man out there. The best advice you can take is sit back and wait to see what develops before rushing out and paying a lawyer for something that has not yet happened. Lawyers love to represent clients that ultimately require them to do nothing but send you a bill.

    I know that most of the American population either lives in fear of being sued or view law suites like buying lottery tickets but as a landlord you need to get a grasp on reality and take it slow. 

    My advice is if you live in fear of the boogie man get out of this business.

    0Reply
  • Kimberly H.
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Chicago Suburbs, IL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 594 votes
    10y

    @Thomas S. it would be great if you could share a few things that happened to you, what the lawyer letter said, and how it was resolved. I think for newer people the threat seems scarier than it is. 

    1Reply
  • Sarah Ziehr
    Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 531 posts · 266 votes
    10y

    @Russell Brazil is absolutely correct. Saying you don't accept section 8 can get you into very hot water. In my market they actually have testers calling brokers and Landlords to see if anyone is violating fair housing laws. 

    Someone just has to FEEL you have discriminated against them in order to file a complaint- so it is best to treat everyone the same. 

    Also if you are going to play Landlord then educate yourself on your local laws and ordinances. 

    1Reply
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