Security Deposit - Apartment is covered in grease!!!!

Security Deposit - Apartment is covered in grease!!!!

Rental Property Investor · Greenwich, CT · Member since 2015 · 48 posts · 16 votes

Looking to help from the BP community in figuring out how much of a security deposit I should hold back. I had tenants move out of a small studio apartment I have about 3 weeks ago. When I went to get the keys the apartment was left in terrible condition and I advised the tenants that they need to clean if they want their deposit. They did but not to my standards.

Here is how things looked...

  • The shower may not have been cleaned for the year and a half they lived there. They tried to clean after I asked them but the new glass shower doors were covered in soap scum and crud between the doors. I ended up cleaning that. 
  • I found a leak in the ceiling that appears to have been there for a while but never reported. Opened the ceiling fixed the leak and had to repair the ceiling - under the ceiling where the water collected the floor finish is clearly gone and I believe it is from the leak
  • The apartment was generally dirty everywhere requiring a vacuum and mopping, I ended up painting the place.
  • THE WORST PART WAS THE GREASE!! Not only was the oven covered in a thick layer of grease, the countertops were THICK with it, the window in the kitchen was covered, the microwave, refrigerator, sink, cabinets, floor, EVERYTHING!!
  • Cleaning grease is a lot harder than I thought, special chemicals still require multiple cleanings...Moving the fridge was an eye opener as the floor was filthy with food grease and mouse droppings they chose not to clean. Under the sink was disgusting as well but not a grease problem.
  • Furthermore, this is a tenant who complained about mice. When I saw that literally everything was covered in cooking grease I now believe the problem was caused by them. I paid an exterminator 500 bucks to come out and really I believe their lack of cleanliness caused this.

I had the apartment repainted, cleaned everything replaced a microwave and it took longer than any apartment I have ever had to turnover. Their security deposit was $950 bucks - they really did not take care of the apartment but lived there for just under a year and a half.

I have never held back anyones security deposit but do not feel I can give theirs back, they really did not take care of the place - Can you all help me figure this situation out. I want to give these folks an answer and would love to hear your thoughts. 

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Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
10y

Your personal time (and any monetary value for it) is NEVER deductible as a landlord/owner.

  @Account Closed suggests

  • Broken Windows, Kicked in Doors, Broken faucets

are normal - - I strongly differ here.  Anything 'Broken or Kicked in' is not normal.  (assuming you're not dealing with class D- tenants) Car grease on a carpet would not be either.  This is why you need to take pictures at move-in and again at move-out; evidence that a judge can not just ignore.

Carpets have a five year (irs) class life, so if the carpet was less that four years old, it's not normal to need to replace it - - that's damage.

Grease (appliances, ceilings, floors) is just cleanup and not a reason for deduction (:sigh:)  I've one or two over the years where it was better to just replace the appliance (still not deductible, personal choice ).

The water leak causing damage is sad, but you can't force people to report it all to you in a timely manner.  Recall the condition; they didn't want you to see it all prematurely.  Normally your insurance would cover 'broken pipes', but consider the cost of this repair (including the floor) vs the deductible and possible increase in premiums.

See this reply in the discussion

26 Replies

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  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 65 posts · 29 votes
    10y

    I had a similar situation,  I was kinda lucky as the tenant was very respectful.  I resent him the move in pictures and noted how clean it was.  It took and displayed side by side pictures and an estimated cost to bring the until back to rent ready.  Cost were more than deposit.   If I recall correctly, I kept most or all.   I figured u was well documented if it ended up in court.   I hate to keep any deposit, and normally loose money at turn-overs.  This one was just dirty.   

    Good news the unit cleaned up nicely.  

  • Retired Landlord/Author · Commerce Township, MI · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Wear and Tear is based on a Judges "Opinion" as there is no law that states what normal wear and tear is.  

    Judges normally consider "wear and tear damages" as follows:

    • Holes in walls
    • Broken Windows
    • Kicked in Doors
    • Broken faucets
    • Car Grease on Carpeting
    • and things that are actual DAMAGES

    What you mention above really falls under CLEANING.  Most Judges will say that this is the job of the Landlord to do when a tenant moves out.  They need to paint and clean.  And that's true!

    This was a constant thing for my husband and I to do after each and every tenant moved out.  They all must have cooked on the floor or used it as a skating rink, the grease was so bad. 

    Once again, 9 times out of 10 a Judge will make you eat up the cost to clean.  However, that  one Judge may side with you, but  it's a roll of the dice.  Bottom Line:  Don't hold your breath in hopes you will encounter that one Judge.

    Nancy Neville

  • Investor · Birmingham, AL · Member since 2016 · 446 posts · 305 votes
    10y

    Security deposit - (Hours spent cleaning @ minimum wage + cost of supplies)

  • Buy & Hold Owner · Redlands, CA · Member since 2015 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    Your personal time (and any monetary value for it) is NEVER deductible as a landlord/owner.

      @Account Closed suggests

    • Broken Windows, Kicked in Doors, Broken faucets

    are normal - - I strongly differ here.  Anything 'Broken or Kicked in' is not normal.  (assuming you're not dealing with class D- tenants) Car grease on a carpet would not be either.  This is why you need to take pictures at move-in and again at move-out; evidence that a judge can not just ignore.

    Carpets have a five year (irs) class life, so if the carpet was less that four years old, it's not normal to need to replace it - - that's damage.

    Grease (appliances, ceilings, floors) is just cleanup and not a reason for deduction (:sigh:)  I've one or two over the years where it was better to just replace the appliance (still not deductible, personal choice ).

    The water leak causing damage is sad, but you can't force people to report it all to you in a timely manner.  Recall the condition; they didn't want you to see it all prematurely.  Normally your insurance would cover 'broken pipes', but consider the cost of this repair (including the floor) vs the deductible and possible increase in premiums.

  • Retired Landlord/Author · Commerce Township, MI · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    J you misunderstood.  I said Judges DO NOT consider the following Normal wear and tear.

    :)  I should have rephrased it, as it did look like that is what I said, but I said it in a backward way.

    I stated "Wear and Tear Damages"

  • Buy and Hold Investor · Knoxville, TN · Member since 2013 · 450 posts · 270 votes
    10y

    I completely disagree that excessive grease buildup is normal wear and tear. Under what "normal" situation would that happen? They must have deep fried every meal and then never cleaned up from it. That is not a normal cleaning situation. That is worth keeping their deposit. I hope you took photos of the condition before cleaning. 

    The leak in the ceiling is also due to their negligence. They should have informed you of that.

    I would say they don't get a penny of that deposit back.

  • Retired Landlord/Author · Commerce Township, MI · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Too bad J that we don't have a betting pool on Bigger Pockets.  I wonder who would win?  :)  Meaning that you and I are in agreement.

  • Dawn AnastasiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    It's the tenants responsibility to keep the place clean and sanitary.  Grease all over everything is NOT normal wear and tear.  A little dust on a windowsill could be.  I have absolutely charged for removing grease from the wall and it held up in court (via damages through an eviction).

  • Rental Property Investor · Greenwich, CT · Member since 2015 · 48 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    Thank you all for your responses. It seems like the major issue here, the grease, is sitting on some sort of grey area. I like to think of myself as reasonable and have cleaned up some pretty gross situations in the past - this one took the cake.

    I can be tough and hold onto this but if I am being tough I figure I need some backup. They were supposed to be out on the 15th of the month but were not out until the night of the 16th. The excessive trash they left behind - normally a cost I eat with tenants - led to a $65 charge on top of usual weekly trash bill. 

    @Dawn Anastasi @Chris Eaker my personal feelings are with you. How can someone live this way, how is it normal wear and tear! 

    @Account Closed appreciate your insight on everything. 

    My gut tells me to send them half of their deposit but I am on the fence. If any of the information above changes anything please let me know.

    Thanks BP

    Connecticut - Fairfield 

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    Everything you mention is normal ware and tear except the grease everywhere. Had you hired someone to do the clean up I would say deduct the cost from the deposit, such as in the $65 garbage fee, but since you did the clean up yourself and are not out of pocket you do not have a justification to withhold. Landlords time is worth ZERO.

    Landlords need to act professionally and hire contractors to be able to justify withholding security deposits. You need proof, receipts, bills, work orders, not simply compensation for your time.

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    In CA, a tenant is responsible to leave a place in the same state it was in when they moved in - less normal wear and tear.

    On the CA Dept of Consumer Affairs website, it lists some examples of normal wear and tear, and the bottom line is that if something was used in a normal way, would that "damage" occur.

    Landlords in CA have the right to charge a tenant to clean it back into the state of cleanliness it was in when the tenant moved in.  And in CA, a landlord can charge a reasonable amount for labor.

    So, read what your deposit laws are for your city/state where the property is.  They vary.  Some states say a tenant only has to leave a place broom clean.  But, in CA, which is a tenant-friendly state, they are required to clean it as well as it was before they moved in.

    Leaving grease everywhere is not the way it was when they moved in.  And I don't think leaving a kitchen covered in grease can be considered reasonable or normal wear and tear.  Using the kitchen in a normal manner, should not result in grease all over it.  

    I'd just take pics of the mess - or I hope you did before you cleaned it.  Gather all your receipts and estimate the time it took you, and any products you had to buy.  Just imagine presenting your case to a judge.

    But, first look up your security deposit laws.  Just Google your city or state and "security deposit law."

    Oh, and as far as paint goes, it depends when you last painted it.  In CA on that website, it says they assume paint has a usable life of 2 years.  So, if you painted it before they moved in, you'd have to prorate that and only charge them for 6 months, or 25% of the cost to repaint it.

  • Penny ClarkPro Member
    Sacramento, CA · Member since 2014 · 513 posts · 319 votes
    10y

    @Bob Mazza, I agree with much of what others already posted here - oil stains on the carpet and globs of grease caking walls, stove, floors, etc. is NOT NORMAL WEAR AND TEAR. However, if Connecticut is a tenant-friendly state (and it seems it is), be sure to document everything from move-ins to move-outs in your inspections. Use photos too. Check with an attorney to see if you can include a clause in your lease that states "a cleaning fee will be charged upon move-out" Resist the idea of saving money by cleaning it yourself. Hire a contractor, get a receipt for work completed and deduct this from the deposit. As for repair of the leak under the floor, that may be difficult to prove it was caused by tenant negligence.

    Below is a link I found that outlines the tenant-landlord laws in your state. I hope this helps!

    https://www.jud.ct.gov/Publications/hm031.pdf

  • Bill SchrimpfBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Reno, NV · Member since 2014 · 349 posts · 189 votes
    10y

    @Bob Mazza CT probably has a specific time frame to either return the deposit or provide a proper accounting. 3 weeks is already a long time. If your past the deadline, the condition of the apartment may be irrelevant.

    In NV, it depends on what your lease says.  Generally speaking, the apartment has to be returned in the same condition it was leased in minus wear and tear.  Its also the responsibility of the tenant to report maintenance issues promptly.  If maintenance issues are not promptly reported, the tenant can be held responsible. 

    ERA Realty Central - Bill Schrimpf58 Reviews
  • Real Estate Agent · Southington, CT · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Bob Mazza In CT you have 30 days from the end of their lease term to return the deposit if they gave you a forwarding address. Did they give you one? If they didn't give you a forwarding address I wouldn't go hunting them down. 

    Also, you always want to hire pros to do any maintenance that needs to be done for a turnover. This way you have receipts of any work done beyond normal wear and tear so a judge can see the logic behind why you held back some or all of the deposit if it gets to that point.

    The grease is not normal and we have held back security for that before with no issues. 

    I would just take out what you think is right and let the situation play out. These people didn't have it in them to keep where they lived sanitary. Do you really think they are going to have the motivation to take you to court over $500-$600? Obviously you want to be ready if they do, but odds are they will just move on. 

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2016 · 506 posts · 311 votes
    10y

    Always use a pro, and always ask for their opinion on cause when they invoice.  "Neglect" as a statement of cause will work well with most judges.

  • Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2015 · 374 posts · 120 votes
    10y

    I agree with Nancy's post regarding how judges rule, but I'd also keep most of the deposit.  It's rare that this ends up in court.  The key as @Jeff A. mentioned is presenting a solid case to the exiting tenant.  If they whine but deep down understand that they left a mess and you acted fairly, the partial deposit is paid out and any disagreement goes away.

  • Gino BarbaroPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · St Augustine, FL · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Bob Mazza

    Hi Bob

    For the future, you can create a rider to the lease outlining each additional charge.  Fridge cleaning is $50, hauling garbage is 50 per hour,  cleaning bathroom is 100, etc.  This will detail to the tenant exactly what is expected of them when they turn in their keys.  If you delivered a clean to them, you should expect a clean one back.  I would document and take pictures for evidence, so when they file to get money back, you have proof

    Good Luck

    Gino

  • Rental Property Investor · Greenwich, CT · Member since 2015 · 48 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    Thank you everyone for your responses @Gino Barbaro @Stone Teran @Robert Melcher @Michael Noto @Bill Schrimpf 

    The big call out here is being more specific in my leases - going forward I will be adding a few additional items and hope that will alleviate some stress. The tenants think they should get their full deposit back - curious - does the fact they stayed into another month make any difference? Normally I would not be a stickler but figure I can use that as back up ammo if it is worth anything. I have heard if a tenant stays late they are responsible for the next months rent...again, usually I would say nothing but given the circumstance it is nice to know.

    Appreciate all the insight BP you are all the best!!!

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    You probably should itemize each deduction in a letter when you return it. Figure out what you spent on materials and how much your time is worth.

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Bob Mazza:

    Thank you everyone for your responses @Gino Barbaro @Stone Teran @Robert Melcher @Michael Noto @Bill Schrimpf 

    The big call out here is being more specific in my leases - going forward I will be adding a few additional items and hope that will alleviate some stress. The tenants think they should get their full deposit back - curious - does the fact they stayed into another month make any difference? Normally I would not be a stickler but figure I can use that as back up ammo if it is worth anything. I have heard if a tenant stays late they are responsible for the next months rent...again, usually I would say nothing but given the circumstance it is nice to know.

    Appreciate all the insight BP you are all the best!!!

     Well, Bob, if they sue you for the rest of the deposit, you can look up the other laws, too, and counter sue them for everything.

    See if your laws require you to also send receipts with the itemization, by the way.  In CA, you have to include any receipts you have.

  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Bob Mazza,

    It's not always possible, but having a range hood vented to the outdoors goes a long way toward keeping a lid on kitchen grease build up if the tenants use the range hood. 

    David J Dachtera

    "Success is not a destination. Failure is not an event. Success is a process, failure is a choice."
    - DJ Benedict

  • Penny ClarkPro Member
    Sacramento, CA · Member since 2014 · 513 posts · 319 votes
    10y

    It's just good business practice to itemize expenses and attach copies of receipts when deducting from someone's security deposit - tenant-friendly state or not. In short, CYA!

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    10y

    @Bob Mazza I would recommend in the future you hire a cleaning service and then their receipt becomes proof of expenses if it goes to court. Same with the garbage, hire a junk hauler and get a receipt. The leak is hard to prove neglect on their part. 

    I disagree with @Account Closed about cleaning being the landlords responsibility. Most likely since her and her husband did the cleaning, it was hard to prove in court. If they had hired a cleaning service, they would have won most likely.  

    My impression is you could have issues in court, but after scrubbing up their nasty mess, I would take money out of their security deposit anyway. Less than 50% odds they take you to court, especially for a smaller sum of money. 

    Not legal advice. Do what you feel comfortable with.

  • Investor · Hamden, CT · Member since 2016 · 7 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    I always do a yearly inspection and if I see something then I say something. I will always give my tenants a two week notice that I will be doing a walk through so that way they know I will be coming so they can cleanup.

  • Rental Property Investor · Greenwich, CT · Member since 2015 · 48 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    Thanks for all of the tips!

    @Todd Hays Thanks for the tip, I think I will add a clause to my leases regarding inspections and do think its important to give a heads up.

    @Joe Splitrock I think I will hire a cleaning service in the future, especially when situations like this arise. 

    @David Dachtera I think adding a range will help and will likely look into that one day.

    @Account Closed I think having the extra day in my back pocket will help for that exact thing. If they argue with me keeping half I will put that on them, I read that if someone stays late they can be charged for the entire month! Not trying to screw anyone but I do think I am being reasonable and they may fight it, who knows.

    Appreciate the insight on this one, I am sending out half of their deposit now.

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