July rent not paid

Reno, NV · Member since 2016 · 328 posts · 97 votes

I posted on another LL and would like to get y'alls thoughts on the situation:

I'm on a merry-go with a POS tenant. I terminated contract with PM. All tenants were by PM notified that I would be self-managing beginning July 1st. I sent my own letter to tenants stating the new payments arrangements. Tenant sends her check to the PM just to irritate me. PM emails me and asks if I want him to deposit in my account. Check is made payable to him.

What would you do? Have PM return check to tenant and continue with PQ? Or let PM deposit in my account?

There is a rough backstory -- tenant has been a PITA since day ONE and her attitude and behavior are continuing to escalate. She has a year lease, otherwise she would have been gone long ago.

Let me just insert here that she is an attorney. I was showing a vacant unit and as prospects passed by she warned them not to rent from me, I was liar, etc (if I'm all those things then why are you still here?). Lately when I go to the property, she stalks me and takes pictures of me until I leave. I have called the police twice because of her ugly actions. Police were called a third time because she got into a verbal fight with her boyfriend -- haven't seen him since. The list goes on ...

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Account Closed

Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes

10y

@Yvette M. There is obviously a lot going on here and I'm assuming a lot but the fact is that YOU changed the payment plan. Sure she's pressing your button but she will claim she lost the paperwork and sent to the PM to at least be sure someone got the rent, blah,blah. Sounds like you are a little pissed at the PM and seems he is just trying to get the rent to you altho he may be taking a little delight in YOU having to deal with Miss PITA. Let it go!

I don't see how the POQ will do anything but escalate things and prove to her that she has the correct button. She has the money and made the "attempt" to get it to you. Stay professional and businesslike knowing that you are choosing to ask her to leave at the end of the lease..

In my 40 years I recently had my first eviction. When I showed up with the writ of possession they called the police on me! The police came and tried to BS me and tell me I was crazy to think they would help me get them out in a half hour. I just kept my cool and showed my paperwork that said any officer of the court HAD to help me but if they didn't want to comply with the Judges order I was fine with that and would just let the Judge know. Long story short the Police got the tenant to come up with $3200 from their boss and asked me to allow them to stay until that money ran out and confirmed that they would be witnesses if there was any damage done, etc. I SO wanted them to be forced out on the spot because they had violated my trust. But, it made financial sense to collect the money and I didn't let being pissed cloud my judgement. It was myself that I was really pissed at because I lowered my judgement because they had been friends of a friend. Got extra money, got them out and got over it.

You are in charge, don't lose that advantage. And sorry you are going thru this.

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Account Closed
Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
Originally posted by @Yvette M.:

@Account Closed
Yes, I changed the payment arrangement, because I took over management. Same scenario if someone had bought the building the tenants would be sending payments to the new owner.
Things are very ugly between me and the tenant, but I would not do anything differently if it was any other tenant. I'm not risking eviction she is and if she chooses to flush her rental property prospects down the toilet then so be it. LLs know that an eviction or eviction is a rental death wish.
@Yvette May, I'm on your side and not trying to be critical but to point out how most third parties will view the situation. Some states even have protections for payers when the payee changes things to include no late charges for the first couple of payments etc.
Remember, even crazy people can sound perfectly logical for short periods of time and perfectly logical people can sound perfectly crazy for short periods.
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Dan Schwartz
Real Estate Investor · Tempe, AZ · Member since 2012 · 874 posts · 648 votes
10y
Yvette May Bob Bowling my first thought was that when my mortgage servicing is sold to a new party, the law prohibits late fees or other penalties for the first 60 (?) days. Wouldn't surprise me if tenant-friendly California has a similar rule about changes in rental payments.
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Yvette M.
OP
Reno, NV · Member since 2016 · 328 posts · 97 votes
10y
@Dan Schwartz @Account Closed
I understand that a tenant "could" have made a mistake, BUT tenant got a 3-day PQ notice to remedy the situation. Actually it was four days since Sunday doesn't count as a business day.
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Account Closed
Investor · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2016 · 668 posts · 209 votes
10y
How do you know she faked a previous landlord reference? Proof of lying on the rental application should invalidate the lease.
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Account Closed
Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
Originally posted by @Yvette M.:

@Dan Schwartz @Account Closed
I understand that a tenant "could" have made a mistake, BUT tenant got a 3-day PQ notice to remedy the situation. Actually it was four days since Sunday doesn't count as a business day.
@Yvette May I hope you rethink your actions. She has PAID! You are going to spin your wheels, pay court fees and go to court and she'll stride in with your exPM that she subpoenaed (my first eviction in 40 years in Honolulu and I found out I can subpoena people into court as witnesses and all I have to do is pay them $7! Insert Dr. Evil laugh here).
So he comes in and testifies that HE got the check and called you and offered to deposit to your account. Easy peasy. So who is the crazy person that got us ALL into court today? For NOTHING!
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Anthony Wienke
Missoula, MT · Member since 2016 · 163 posts · 55 votes
10y
Sorry to hear about this problem tenant of yours. I hate to say it but I think you let your emotions get in the way.
Sure, the tenant may have falsified a previous landlord but your judgment is also being clouded by the fact that this tenant is a real dirt ball and PITA as quoted from other members and your self.
This is just my opinion of course and I treat owning rental property like a business. Sometimes things just don't work perfectly the way you want but it is working. Take comfort in the fact that you're more or less dropping the proverbial ax on this tenant if she wants to rent a decent place down the road. She dug her own grave on that one and is going to need the services of shady craigslist open room posters if she wants to find a place to live.
On the humorous side of things, it would be funny if she tried to list you as the previous landlord reference on another application. Just drop that ax and let them know to also drop her application into the paper shredder lol
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Penny ClarkPro Member
Sacramento, CA · Member since 2014 · 513 posts · 319 votes
10y
@Yvette M., Sorry to say, but your tenant knows exactly what she's doing, hoping you'll give up, lose your cool so she can play this out til the bitter end. Once you start exercising your rights as a landlord and documenting your actions, she'll either take you seriously and start paying up or she'll make plans to move. Please be careful to be businesslike in all communication and to document anytime she makes it difficult for vendors to make repairs, etc. You're in Cali - a very tenant friendly state- and you don't want to give a whiff of an impression that your actions are a retaliation toward the tenant. You need to know not only your rights as a landlord but what her rights are as a tenant. It's tenants like these that makes me more convinced to start out tenants in a month to month and switch to a lease later.
@Vitaliy Merkulov, I never heard of that site, but I'll definitely check it out. Are the landlords who dish the dirt on bad tenants guaranteed anonymity? If you're caught making it difficult for a tenant to secure housing, I'd be concerned about getting sued. Much of the time, it's hard enough to get anything other than documented facts from previous landlords because they don't want to be sued by their past tenants.
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Yvette M.
OP
Reno, NV · Member since 2016 · 328 posts · 97 votes
10y
@Anthony Wienke
She will have to fake two previous LLs on her next application. Believe me I have sucked all the emotion out and it comes down to "b----, where's my money!"
One of the tenants also tipped me off that she has her boyfriend shacking up with her. I was at the property today for about four hours and she only cracked the door once that I saw.
@Account Closed, I get that she has paid. She paid the PM whom I no longer have a contract with.
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Yvette M.
OP
Reno, NV · Member since 2016 · 328 posts · 97 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:

How do you know she faked a previous landlord reference? Proof of lying on the rental application should invalidate the lease.
When I found out her previous address, I did a drive-by. I only meant to pass by slowly and check it from a street view. However, curiosity took over and I parked the car. I only intended to walk the perimeter, but the neighbor came out to check his mail and I chatted him up. In a nutshell he said she terrorized the landlord there too and every one was happy when she moved. I also find out that her LL reference has the same surname as her boyfriend and the neighbor tenant told me a different name for the landlord. I don't think the lease can invalidated because of a fake reference, but taken together with her other episodes, I cold have a case.
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Yvette M.
OP
Reno, NV · Member since 2016 · 328 posts · 97 votes
10y
@Penny Clark
After this tenant, my leases will be six-months then roll into m2m. Of course she knows what she is doing as most sociopaths do.
By the third time police were called to the property they realized she is a nut case too. She filed a complaint against the officers because they didn't arrest me for trespassing and throwing away her garbage she had in the walkway!
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Jeff Gates
Investor · Cathedral City, CA · Member since 2014 · 481 posts · 170 votes
10y
Once you look at an applicant you pre screen. If a person states their profession is paralegal or attorney, you already know your plan is to find someone else. Never rent to one of these!
2 Reply
James DeRoest
Investor · Century, FL · Member since 2015 · 950 posts · 603 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Originally posted by @Yvette M.:
@Dan Schwartz @Account Closed
I understand that a tenant "could" have made a mistake, BUT tenant got a 3-day PQ notice to remedy the situation. Actually it was four days since Sunday doesn't count as a business day.
@Yvette May I hope you rethink your actions. She has PAID! You are going to spin your wheels, pay court fees and go to court and she'll stride in with your exPM that she subpoenaed (my first eviction in 40 years in Honolulu and I found out I can subpoena people into court as witnesses and all I have to do is pay them $7! Insert Dr. Evil laugh here).
Well, technically she hasn't paid. Did she send the check to the landlord, no, she sent it to some random person. Try that in Walmart, on the way out, give the money for your shopping to some hobo, and when you're in court being prosecuted for theft "I paid - they just needed to get the money off the hobo".
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Yvette M.
OP
Reno, NV · Member since 2016 · 328 posts · 97 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Jeff Gates:

Once you look at an applicant you pre screen. If a person states their profession is paralegal or attorney, you already know your plan is to find someone else. Never rent to one of these!
After I started having trouble with this tenant a LL friend told me the same thing! 😀
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Account Closed
Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
Originally posted by @James DeRoest:

Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Yvette M.:

@Dan Schwartz @Account Closed
I understand that a tenant "could" have made a mistake, BUT tenant got a 3-day PQ notice to remedy the situation. Actually it was four days since Sunday doesn't count as a business day.
@Yvette May I hope you rethink your actions. She has PAID! You are going to spin your wheels, pay court fees and go to court and she'll stride in with your exPM that she subpoenaed (my first eviction in 40 years in Honolulu and I found out I can subpoena people into court as witnesses and all I have to do is pay them $7! Insert Dr. Evil laugh here).
Well, technically she hasn't paid. Did she send the check to the landlord, no, she sent it to some random person. Try that in Walmart, on the way out, give the money for your shopping to some hobo, and when you're in court being prosecuted for theft "I paid - they just needed to get the money off the hobo".
Seriously, you think the PM is just like some random hobo?
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Joe SplitrockPro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
10y
@Yvette M. I would have the PM deposit the check in my account. I always want my money. So you offer her a pay or quit notice. You try to evict her and she says she never got notice and sent it to the PM. The PM states he did receive the money and contacted you to offer depositing in your account. You tell the judge you told him not to deposit it and instead you are evicting her?
The point is you have a way to get the rent and to pretend you didn't is lying and that will not go well in court, but do what you want. I am sure you are smarter than the attorney tenant.
1 Reply
Yvette M.
OP
Reno, NV · Member since 2016 · 328 posts · 97 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

@Yvette M. I would have the PM deposit the check in my account. I always want my money. So you offer her a pay or quit notice. You try to evict her and she says she never got notice and sent it to the PM. The PM states he did receive the money and contacted you to offer depositing in your account. You tell the judge you told him not to deposit it and instead you are evicting her?
The point is you have a way to get the rent and to pretend you didn't is lying and that will not go well in court, but do what you want. I am sure you are smarter than the attorney tenant.
Tenant is devious and has to be the devil's daughter. If I had let the PM deposit the check it would have been another scheme next month. The PM and I no longer have a contract for services, therefore tenants should have no interaction with PM for services or payments. I have the post office tracking for the change of management letter that I sent to all tenants and out of five tenants at the time she was the village idiot. She could argue "well the PM deposited the check last month, so I will do the same thing again".
The check was not payable to me, so no I didn't get the rent. If it comes down to it, the judge can sort the dead out bodies.
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Joe SplitrockPro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
10y
Originally posted by @Yvette M.:

Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
@Yvette M. I would have the PM deposit the check in my account. I always want my money. So you offer her a pay or quit notice. You try to evict her and she says she never got notice and sent it to the PM. The PM states he did receive the money and contacted you to offer depositing in your account. You tell the judge you told him not to deposit it and instead you are evicting her?
The point is you have a way to get the rent and to pretend you didn't is lying and that will not go well in court, but do what you want. I am sure you are smarter than the attorney tenant.
Tenant is devious and has to be the devil's daughter. If I had let the PM deposit the check it would have been another scheme next month. The PM and I no longer have a contract for services, therefore tenants should have no interaction with PM for services or payments. I have the post office tracking for the change of management letter that I sent to all tenants and out of five tenants at the time she was the village idiot. She could argue "well the PM deposited the check last month, so I will do the same thing again".
The check was not payable to me, so no I didn't get the rent. If it comes down to it, the judge can sort the dead out bodies.
Did you contact her (phone or text) and let her know the check is being returned and advise her to send a check to you? I am talking about calling her on the phone. My impression is you don't want your money and you want to take her to court to evict her. I get that you are mad, but seems like money is what runs a business and going to court for eviction is costly.
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Yvette M.
OP
Reno, NV · Member since 2016 · 328 posts · 97 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

Originally posted by @Yvette M.:
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:

@Yvette M. I would have the PM deposit the check in my account. I always want my money. So you offer her a pay or quit notice. You try to evict her and she says she never got notice and sent it to the PM. The PM states he did receive the money and contacted you to offer depositing in your account. You tell the judge you told him not to deposit it and instead you are evicting her?
The point is you have a way to get the rent and to pretend you didn't is lying and that will not go well in court, but do what you want. I am sure you are smarter than the attorney tenant.
Tenant is devious and has to be the devil's daughter. If I had let the PM deposit the check it would have been another scheme next month. The PM and I no longer have a contract for services, therefore tenants should have no interaction with PM for services or payments. I have the post office tracking for the change of management letter that I sent to all tenants and out of five tenants at the time she was the village idiot. She could argue "well the PM deposited the check last month, so I will do the same thing again".
The check was not payable to me, so no I didn't get the rent. If it comes down to it, the judge can sort the dead out bodies.
Did you contact her (phone or text) and let her know the check is being returned and advise her to send a check to you? I am talking about calling her on the phone. My impression is you don't want your money and you want to take her to court to evict her. I get that you are mad, but seems like money is what runs a business and going to court for eviction is costly.
Bottom line I want her gone. She is not returning e-mail/text/calls. She has been terrorist since day one.
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Robert Nason
Lowell, MA · Member since 2014 · 260 posts · 99 votes
10y
Some people are just the worst! And to abuse the power of being a lawyer to her advantage is an ethical misdeed to not only you but to herself. Shame on her. Document everything and get a good lawyer and get her out of there. She shouldn't be harassing you when you're trying to show a unit. I have very low tolerance for low class people.
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John CasmonPro Member
Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
10y
Originally posted by @James DeRoest:

Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Yvette M.:

@Dan Schwartz @Account Closed
I understand that a tenant "could" have made a mistake, BUT tenant got a 3-day PQ notice to remedy the situation. Actually it was four days since Sunday doesn't count as a business day.
@Yvette May I hope you rethink your actions. She has PAID! You are going to spin your wheels, pay court fees and go to court and she'll stride in with your exPM that she subpoenaed (my first eviction in 40 years in Honolulu and I found out I can subpoena people into court as witnesses and all I have to do is pay them $7! Insert Dr. Evil laugh here).
Well, technically she hasn't paid. Did she send the check to the landlord, no, she sent it to some random person. Try that in Walmart, on the way out, give the money for your shopping to some hobo, and when you're in court being prosecuted for theft "I paid - they just needed to get the money off the hobo".
This is a bad analogy. A better analogy would be paying the sales clerk at Walmart (per usual), walking out and being told there was a change in policy and you were suppose to pay the store manager, not the clerk. But the analogy doesn't matter.....

While the owner has done everything to clearly communicate the change, there's no guarantee the courts will rule in her favor. I say get your money for this month from the previous manager and instruct them to reject any future payments. Follow up with the tenant in writing again, citing your previous messages and see if she tries it again. You'd have a much stronger case if she pulled this twice in a row, especially if the previous manager tries to accept a second payment.
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James DeRoest
Investor · Century, FL · Member since 2015 · 950 posts · 603 votes
10y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Originally posted by @James DeRoest:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Originally posted by @Yvette M.:
@Dan Schwartz @Account Closed
I understand that a tenant "could" have made a mistake, BUT tenant got a 3-day PQ notice to remedy the situation. Actually it was four days since Sunday doesn't count as a business day.
@Yvette May I hope you rethink your actions. She has PAID! You are going to spin your wheels, pay court fees and go to court and she'll stride in with your exPM that she subpoenaed (my first eviction in 40 years in Honolulu and I found out I can subpoena people into court as witnesses and all I have to do is pay them $7! Insert Dr. Evil laugh here).
Well, technically she hasn't paid. Did she send the check to the landlord, no, she sent it to some random person. Try that in Walmart, on the way out, give the money for your shopping to some hobo, and when you're in court being prosecuted for theft "I paid - they just needed to get the money off the hobo".
Seriously, you think the PM is just like some random hobo?
The PM isn't the PM as he's been let go. So he's as good as a random hobo.
Has the landlord been paid? No. That's all that matters. Paying someone else does not count. Think it through.
1 Reply
Yvette M.
OP
Reno, NV · Member since 2016 · 328 posts · 97 votes
10y
Originally posted by @James DeRoest:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Originally posted by @James DeRoest:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Originally posted by @Yvette M.:
@Dan Schwartz @Account Closed
I understand that a tenant "could" have made a mistake, BUT tenant got a 3-day PQ notice to remedy the situation. Actually it was four days since Sunday doesn't count as a business day.
@Yvette May I hope you rethink your actions. She has PAID! You are going to spin your wheels, pay court fees and go to court and she'll stride in with your exPM that she subpoenaed (my first eviction in 40 years in Honolulu and I found out I can subpoena people into court as witnesses and all I have to do is pay them $7! Insert Dr. Evil laugh here).
Well, technically she hasn't paid. Did she send the check to the landlord, no, she sent it to some random person. Try that in Walmart, on the way out, give the money for your shopping to some hobo, and when you're in court being prosecuted for theft "I paid - they just needed to get the money off the hobo".
Seriously, you think the PM is just like some random hobo?
The PM isn't the PM as he's been let go. So he's as good as a random hobo.
Has the landlord been paid? No. That's all that matters. Paying someone else does not count. Think it through.
Amen! She's had eight notice days to pay me and has done ZERO to mitigate. I'm not a lawyer, but I would think that receiving two PQs would count as constructive notice. I've posted the text I sent her. She didn't respond to the original text message, but instead created a new text message which is why I said I would repeat the original text. I might also add and I didn't mention it before, but I am the "additionally insured" on her renter's insurance and noted on the lease. Whew! This post has gotten a lot of traction!
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Vitaliy Merkulov
Property Manager · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2015 · 121 posts · 33 votes
10y
Originally posted by :

@Vitaliy Merkulov, I never heard of that site, but I'll definitely check it out. Are the landlords who dish the dirt on bad tenants guaranteed anonymity? If you're caught making it difficult for a tenant to secure housing, I'd be concerned about getting sued. Much of the time, it's hard enough to get anything other than documented facts from previous landlords because they don't want to be sued by their past tenants.
RenterInc is a new tool that landlords/pm can use to hold their tenants accountable for their tenancy. Landlord can submit a review about their current tenant on this website and send a link to their review on the website. If the tenant is being a good tenant, this will encourage them to being good, if they are not doing well, this will encourage them to fix their problems because their review could be found by the future landlord.

The reviews are not just thoughts of the landlord about the person, or their character. The reviews are based on documented facts like, were there complaints about the tenant? how many times did they pay rent late? etc. The reviews are all FCRA and Fair Housing Approved so there is no fear for landlords to post something about tenant and be sued (unless the landlord lies on the review) With that said, the landlord's name is available on the review to make sure that landlords are sharing the truth about their tenants.

Give it a try
1 Reply
Joe SplitrockPro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
10y
Originally posted by @Yvette M.:

Originally posted by @Jeff Gates:
Once you look at an applicant you pre screen. If a person states their profession is paralegal or attorney, you already know your plan is to find someone else. Never rent to one of these!
After I started having trouble with this tenant a LL friend told me the same thing! 😀
Interesting question - is it illegal to use profession as a screening criteria? Profession is not a protected class. Assuming you rejected all lawyers as your policy would that be illegal? Maybe an attorney has some thoughts on that?
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Joe SplitrockPro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
10y
@Yvette M. I think the advice that @Account Closed and myself are trying to give is that the tenant can easily argue they were confused on payment location since you changed it this month. They could state that they paid rent. If the judge asks you if you are aware she sent payment, you need to say YES but to the old property manager. I fear you will walk into court calling her a POS, PITA, b...., terrorist and lair. Your strong emotions will make you look like an unreasonable hot-headed landlord. Hopefully your vented all your emotions so you are cool and calm in court. Just be prepared for the judge is to be sympathetic to her. I am on your side, but the judge has only a short period of time to pass judgement and will only look at hard facts. Don't even bother telling the judge she followed you around taking pictures or that she told a perspective tenant not to rent from you, unless you have testimony proof it is all hearsay.
It sounds like the 3-day notice has passed so I assume you are filing for eviction? Keep us posted on how it goes.
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