Asking a tenant to leave because they appear to be really dumb...

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Asking a tenant to leave because they appear to be really dumb...

Jack B.
Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

Tenant reported bed bugs even though I've never seen any there and no previous tenant ever complained of bed bugs. They moved in from a hotel...

Although I'm going over there today with an inspector, my biggest concern at this point is this tenant. I ask where they've seen the bed bugs so I can come and inspect and they claim that such a question is proof that I knew of the bed bugs...After going around the world with this guy to explain that this is a normal troubleshooting step, identify where they've seen them so I can come and look, he claims he only responded with logic and that I'm wrong....Then he sends me another email telling me I'm being volatile and defensive...

Then this beacon of logic asks me at 10:00 PM what time in the morning the exterminator will be by. I explain that the exterminator is not open after hours and I won't know until I talk to him in the morning...

I had told them that I forgot to bring their set of keys when I turned the house over to them so I gave them my key. He heard that I gave them my only key...

They seem to think they are the bastion of logic, even though they are clearly not and write like a 3rd grader, with the worst grammar and spelling I've ever seen, random words have their first letters capitalized even if they are not the beginning of a sentence. The guy is a handyman...I suspect he didn't finish high school, if that.

At this point, I'm really debating whether I want them out of my house. They seem really finicky, dumb and dangerous. I should have seen the signs. His wife asked me about bugs during the tour, and now she is telling me she is an extreme germaphobe...They thanked me for fixing their FIRST issue.

This tenants screams IDIOT and TROUBLE to me. I told them that if they can't communicate coherently and we have more issues with miscommunication then they should consider this their 20 days notice to move out. They responded that they don't think there will be anymore problems going forward now that they understand my personality and MY troubleshooting steps and that they only responded with logic and didn't misunderstand anything. I really think these people are too dumb to rent anything other than a hotel...

He was even complaining about other things and thanked me for fixing their first issue...

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Frank Gucciardo
Highland, NY · Member since 2013 · 169 posts · 130 votes
10y

Sounds like your tenant screening skills need improvement.  Time to brush up or hire a property manager.  You have no one to blame but yourself for approving such a tenant in the first place.

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2016 · 668 posts · 209 votes
    10y

    Does he Understand the lease? because you are Holding him to it. tell him Otherwise he's free to Go now without Penaley. See, it's not so hard to communicate. Trust your gut on this if you think he will be trouble. Good luck.

    1Reply
  • Jack B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Let me add that I've had other tenants like this that I still have living in units I own. They are a problem every time there is an issue. They will replace a faucet without authorization, then claim there is a leak and water is everywhere and I need to come right now. I ask for pics of the broken valve and water leak and they claim there is nothing to take a picture of. After going around the world with them asking them to send a pic of the alleged broken valve and the water everywhere they tell me there is nothing to take a picture of again. Of course it turns out they replaced the faucet (a white faucet on a stainless steel sink) and because they didn't put it together right, they wanted me to pay the cost to hire a plumber to fix it for them, claiming there was a leak before...

    I get most renters are generally low income, unintelligent people compared to us "rich landlords" but my GOD, I'm wondering if renting to people this dumb is not a huge liability. 

    Most of my tenants have been great, but once in a while I get people who can't figure out which shoe goes on which foot without help...

    1Reply
  • Michele FischerPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    You need to be careful about retaliation charges.  If you tell him he needs to move out, it looks like you are forcing him out because he made a complaint.

    Spend more time with your applicants, that is the best time to try to sort out how big a pain the tenant will be.

    Some tenants will always hear something different, be irrational, and if they had it more together they would probably be homeowners.  Don't provide extra information, don't let it get to you, give him the option to move out if he's unhappy, keep things professional, document everything (internally and to him) and wait until after the bed bug issue dies down before considering forcing him to leave.

    Podcast Guest on Show #79
    4Reply
  • Jack B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    I gave him the option to move out within a day with a full refund less any damages. I offered to let him move out at the end of the month only paying the first months rent.

    They are on a month-to-month lease. I'm addressing their complaint, but I see signs of someone of clearly below average intelligence, by a wide margin, and he is extremely emotional and accusatory.

    He was probably so adamant that I talk to his wife for this reason, but his wife is just as dumb, but less emotional. 

    I'm just worried about these people and their general idiocy. Luckily if they are not happy they can give me 20 days notice or I can give them 20 days notice before the end of any month, so perhaps it's best to let them stay for NOW and see how things go. But if there is another episode? 

    I had similar issues with the 26 year old GED girl living in one of my other houses (she get's a ton of money in child support...) and she has been a constant problem. Late rent, breaks things trying to upgrade them then claims it was broken before and wants me to fix it at my expense, etc. 

    She's straightened up to an extent with late fines and offers to free her up to explore other rental housing, but only to an extent. Each time I deal with her it's an argument and I feel like I'm dealing with a 12 year old. Breaks something then claims it was broken before with no evidence, when it turns out she tried to replace it and couldn't figure out how to get it back together and wants me to pay for it because "she can't afford it". 

    I've had 5 tenants so far and only two of them, the girl and the couple mentioned above being the only bad ones so far. Everyone else had an IQ higher than two digits. I've also noticed that the lower their intelligence, the more keen they are on telling me what to do and how to do things. I am one class away from my MBA and make over 200K in taxable income between work and rental income, not counting capital gains, own nearly 2 million in real estate, yet I have people who make $10 an hour with a HS diploma moving into their first rental house telling me what to do...

    0Reply
  • William F.
    Flipper/Rehabber · Tacoma, WA · Member since 2016 · 100 posts · 34 votes
    10y
    So.... Time for a property manager?
    2Reply
  • Joe Baker
    Asheboro, NC · Member since 2016 · 31 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    You have to remember that being dumb isn't a crime. If it was half the people in the U.S. would be locked up.

    1Reply
  • Account Closed
    Western Suburbs, IL · Member since 2016 · 58 posts · 16 votes
    10y
    We all feel like that sometimes, I'm an engineer and I have to explain to people that you can't pound in a face mill into a ER32 collet chuck in a $150k laser tool setter with a mallet. 🙄
    1Reply
  • Frank Gucciardo
    Highland, NY · Member since 2013 · 169 posts · 130 votes
    10y

    Sounds like your tenant screening skills need improvement.  Time to brush up or hire a property manager.  You have no one to blame but yourself for approving such a tenant in the first place.

    7Reply
  • Andy D.
    Investor · Zürich, Zürich · Member since 2016 · 292 posts · 115 votes
    10y

    @Account Closed LOL!

    Everything appears to be relative, but with respect to basic daily living logic there are limits as to what can be tolerated... at least for me.

    @Jack B.

    @Jack B.You can't fix stupid, and there is a lot of stupid. But when it comes to the point where this stupid starts to cause you problems that ultimately cost you money then this is an issue that needs fixing or otherwise your business will suffer (because you would stupid as you didn't take action in this hypothetical scenario).

    In my view, as you are clearly not willing to deal with this level of stupidity, you are pulling in the wrong tenants. So either your screening sucks or you're invested in the wrong properties/area. I think it's as simple as that. ;-)

    As for any action with respect to this specific tenant: follow your lease and give him notice where feasible.

    0Reply
  • Brian Ambrose
    Brentwood, TN · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 10 votes
    10y
    Document everything! When you do , rem one day a judge may read it too. Look at your own lease and see what it says about lease termination from ur end, and do exactly that to the letter! Document all your attempts to fix the situation, and the response. Judges dont like people name calling or branding people in court. You can use words like, unresonable, non-responsive, irratic... but not crazy, in sane, unstable. If they suspect that, they are almost legally bound to have that person phycologically evaluated .... at your expense!!! See if there is another person you can deal with on the renters end, a brother, mother sister u can talk to also, if this person is nuts, they would know, and it gives you a buffer that may help talk this guy off the ledge! Good luck.
    0Reply
  • Deanna McCormick
    Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    You usually don't ASK a tenant to leave.....You give them proper notice of NON-Renewal /  Lease termination. Don't risk trying to communicate in person, paper trail is best. If you are in apartment for service call, take photo's of condition to document condition, make sure you give them written notice you are entering apartment for service, or have their confirmation from them that they know you are entering apartment in a text or email. Make sure you leave them a note saying service call was made. I would neither confirm or deny bugs. I would get a copy of the service call records, so you have it for court.

    Early lease termination option could be included in the Notice of Non-Renewal, but with this type of tenant sounds like it's best to keep it simple, go the correct and proper way, per your lease and housing court. Expect they will not vacate and to be ready with filing Unlawful Detainer when they do not vacate per non-renewal of lease. Do not under any circumstances agree to let them stay another day after lease term vacate notice date, or "YOU GET TO START ALL OVER".

    Tenants are notorious for bogus claims and some are really good at living for free. Credit checks don't always find those, not all previous landlords will disclose rental history for fear of reprisals. Gut feelings and common sense are some of your best defense against a wacky tenant but once off their meds, breakup with spouse, or job loss, anyone can go wacky. 

    Biggest CLUE was, they were living in a hotel !! YA that was a huge CLUE. 

    Best of Luck. 

    1Reply
  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    Are you using 6th grade language?  As my brother says lose your college words.  Simple short and repetitive works best for this type of tenant.  It is aggravating and maybe you need to get them to go but maybe you need to let your annoyance dissipate, set office hours and set rules.  I  think if you engage less you may feel better.  A 10 pm text for that issue- ignore it.  I appreciate the situation and the tenant issues. I had a tenant who didn't know how to plunge a toilet and every call was a challenge in interpretation but you deal with all kinds of people and sometimes you have to deal with this kind in the landlord business. Another option is to screen them out as some have suggested.

    On a side note I have seen stupid MDs, PhDs, MBAs and  smart people who did not finish high school so education doesn't by definition mean people are smart. Degrees are a particular  set of hoops you jump through, common sense is not required.  

    2Reply
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    10y

    @Jack B. connecting intelligence-education-salary is not always connected. I know a guy who is one class away from his Masters who has an IQ around 130. He is making $40K a year managing a gas station. He rents an apartment. I know a guy who didn't graduate high school with a low IQ that sold his business for $15 million and he grew it from nothing. 

    Education or intelligence doesn't make someone superior. Someone once told me that the richest person in the world takes a crap sitting on his toilet with his pants between his legs, just like you and me. 

    It is generally true that less successful people have made bad decisions and lack common sense (some smart people lack common sense). That is why they are renters. If someone was really smart and successful, they would not be renting from you. You want to ask a tenant to leave for being dumb, but this seems to be your target customer. It is like saying dumb people shouldn't be allowed in Walmart or McDonalds.

    Tenants like this can be managed, but it takes patience and firm policies. Talking down to people or demeaning them will not help. Many landlords cannot handle this part of the business and maybe it isn't for you. As others suggested you could get a property manager. Another option is to sell these properties and move to higher-end rentals. As you move up in rent value, you will find less issues like this. You could consider college rentals.

    I am speaking from experience. I sold my lower end rentals specifically because I didn't want to deal with this crap anymore. I wouldn't call any of my tenants today dumb, but they don't always make the best decisions.

    My advice is change your attitude, change your management style or change your properties. Stop blaming others though, because this is within your control.

    7Reply
  • Jack B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    OK, lol, your friend is the exception to the rule. Statistically, people who are higher educated are more intelligent and earn more money...FACT.

    It's a single family home and the inspector searched every square inch of the place and found ZERO, let me say again ZERO evidence of bed bugs. Not eggs, not even poop, which he said is always left behind and hard to get rid of. Not one shred of evidence. Scammer tenant. If they pipe up again about this crap they will be asked to leave with the quickness....

    0Reply
  • Ben Ballinger
    Developer · Newport Beach, CA · Member since 2016 · 71 posts · 25 votes
    10y
    Jack B. You sound super angry and emotional. It's understandable considering its your property but seems the only purpose of this post is for you to vent and name call behind this persons back. You keep going on and on about how "stupid" they are, yet they have you in a tizzy.. So are you saying a stupid person is able to make you this upset? If you're going to be a landlord you should be able to handle these kinds of tenants without having a tantrum. If not, hire a property manager and delegate it and focus on the things that don't make you miserable
    6Reply
  • Jack B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Colleen F.:

    Are you using 6th grade language?  As my brother says lose your college words.  Simple short and repetitive works best for this type of tenant.  It is aggravating and maybe you need to get them to go but maybe you need to let your annoyance dissipate, set office hours and set rules.  I  think if you engage less you may feel better.  A 10 pm text for that issue- ignore it.  I appreciate the situation and the tenant issues. I had a tenant who didn't know how to plunge a toilet and every call was a challenge in interpretation but you deal with all kinds of people and sometimes you have to deal with this kind in the landlord business. Another option is to screen them out as some have suggested.

    On a side note I have seen stupid MDs, PhDs, MBAs and  smart people who did not finish high school so education doesn't by definition mean people are smart. Degrees are a particular  set of hoops you jump through, common sense is not required.  

    What is your degree in?? Studies show that education = increased intelligence and income. There's an exception to every rule, but if Mark Z. of Facebook is your "see not everyone without a degree is less" then I'm not sure what to tell you other than your bias is clear...

    0Reply
  • Jack B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Frank Gucciardo:

    Sounds like your tenant screening skills need improvement.  Time to brush up or hire a property manager.  You have no one to blame but yourself for approving such a tenant in the first place.

    You base this one one or two tenants out of many? They are some of the best tenants I've ever seen on paper. Do you suggest I spend several months with them before renting to them?? Or did you think a few minutes of a tour and chat is enough to tell???  lol

    0Reply
  • Jack B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    So many people telling me to read the lease for early termination clauses. Did anybody notice my second sentence in my OP said they are on a month to month lease??? Or are these the "college doesn't make you smarter" people?

    0Reply
  • Kimberly H.
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Chicago Suburbs, IL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 594 votes
    10y

    @Jack B. Uhm, wow.  You sound *so* disrespectful of your tenants.

    It's never occurred to you that some people could be smart but aren't as well educated due to circumstances beyond their control? 

    I know plenty of well credentialed people who make plenty of stupid decisions; lawyers, CPAs, engineers, card carrying members of MENSA, etc.

    3Reply
  • Ben Ballinger
    Developer · Newport Beach, CA · Member since 2016 · 71 posts · 25 votes
    10y
    Kimberly H. I agree, if he's this rude to people on a forum trying to answer his questions I can only imagine his toxic attitude towards tenants who don't live up to his standard of education or intelligence and dare to make a complaint.
    5Reply
  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    @Jack B. Studies in the US and Europe show that college correlates with income and that is mostly because that is the way our society was built.  There are a lot of other things that predict income including being born into money. Overall though they only explain some small percentage of the difference between people when you consider individuals not in the extremes of the population.

    My main point is this Newsflash.... your (almost) degree (and I have a couple of them) and  IQ do not make you better then and other people stupid.   Some basic techniques like I suggested above will help you more then your MBA in managing people.    I am sorry to see you illustrate that you lack those skills and probably escalated the situation. Bye.

     Mark Z? I don't read facebook..

    3Reply
  • Account Closed
    Western Suburbs, IL · Member since 2016 · 58 posts · 16 votes
    10y
    And this is why I only do fix and flips, and I live in what investors would say is an "A" area with 10/10 schools and $1+ million dollar homes.
    0Reply
  • Jack B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    If I ask a tenant where the bed bugs are so I can know where to look and the tenant jumps to accusing me of knowing there are bed bugs because I asked where, then I'M the bad guy, rude and toxic? lololol. OK then...

    Reminds me of another forum I posted on recently about renters. The home owners and landlords agreed with me, and the only people to come bash me where the very people the thread was about. The only bashers were renters EVERY single one of them, every single one of them had no degree and made less than $13 an hour as we came to find out. I think I struck a nerve...

    0Reply
  • Brian Ambrose
    Brentwood, TN · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 10 votes
    10y
    This is like watching and insult tennis match😀
    2Reply
  • Jack B.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    Plus some of you miss the point. Just like credit score and background is an indicator, so is education, but it doesn't mean that just because you have it you're guaranteed success. I was a high income earner before I ever had a degree. I know many people who have advanced degrees and can't pay their own phone bill...But generally I prefer dealing with people with more education and a higher income, as it usually shows that they get it. Certainly I'm not going to buddy up with someone just because they don't have a degree. So long as they demonstrate intelligence it's fine. These people clearly don't. 

    0Reply
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