Heeeelp!! Tenant issues and mold

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Heeeelp!! Tenant issues and mold

Samantha Jee
Redmond, WA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 0 votes

I'm not a professional landlord but we have a condo in LA that we rented out b/c we moved states due to a job. We've rented for 3 years with zero issues. 7 months ago we rented to a girl named Sandi and another girl named Lily. They were fine but i whenever i had to have someone go in there to fix something they resented it b/c they said they were busy professionals and didn't want to deal with any upkeep. so i decided to hire a property management company. i told them due to increases in tax and HOA, i needed to raise the rent $100 each. Sandi freaks out and writes long rambling emails about how there's dirt and mold that we've hidden from them from the start that she's just now discovering. I have no idea what she means as she's never mentioned this. We hire a property manager that weekend and within 3 days she's out there and decides a mold inspector needs to come. He comes within 2 days and with extensive tests find there are leaks from the shared pipes throughout the HOA and our place has detectable mold.

So he said its best if the girls move out since the mold seems throughout the unit. We have been paying for them to stay in hotels the last couple of weeks. We are trying to get the mold remediation company to go in there and fix this but the girls are freaking out that we are violating their privacy. Our PM insists the mold remediation company can go in with 24 hour notice so they will start the work Fri.

I have two issues. First, I am paying thousands for this remediation as well as for cleaning their personal possessions and the hotel. Is the HOA resposible for any of this? They said no. My PM thinks yes.

Second issue is that these girls are very hostile, not actively looking to move out it appears, and have mentioned suing us. Do they have a case? They literally never mentioned mold until 2 weeks ago, on a Saturday. By the following Tues (Monday was Pres Day) we had inspectors out there and are trying our best to fix this. I'm really stressed they will sue us for thousands and thousands. Any adivce? Anyone BTDT?

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Colleen F.Pro Member
Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
9y

Every place has detectable mold. If it is harmful you need to remediate.  Schedule the mold company and enter as allowed for such urgent conditions regardless with 24 hours notice if that is the timeframe allowed in your area.   Really you keep paying for them to stay in a hotel while they don't let you enter the apartment they aren't living in?  I would consider they are paranoid about entry because maybe there is something they were doing that is contributing. Mold needs moisture to grow.

Look in the lease for inhabitable conditions clause to see if you can terminate the lease based on that. I would have a landlord/tenant lawyer look at the lease to see if there is anything you can use in the lease to do this and also to advise on the hotel aspect. You can't continue to cover hotels. Did they pay March rent? I believe they need to put rent in escrow if they withhold it. Basically even if you remediate if it is from the shared ventilation it won't be fixed I would think. I would not worry so much about them suing as I would about acting legally now and stopping the financial bleeding ASAP. A couple of things to explore include insurance yours, the HOA, and thier renters insurance (do they have coverage, has it paid for any of their expenses?). May be limited coverage but could be some. You don't want to be accused of retaliation for the complaint but basically this tenant relationship after threatening to sue is not going anywhere good so now or later you are going to want to get the tenants out of the place. Sounds like you were very prompt to respond and very supportive so you will look good as far as that is considered. Try to end this ASAP. And getting an HOA to pay for anything may take legal action on your part.

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  • Jimmy MurrayBusiness Member
    Investor · Warwick, RI · Member since 2013 · 220 posts · 119 votes
    9y
    In my opinion this remediation falls on the HOA if it is coming from a common area item. The fact that this only became an issue when you decided to raise the rent will show any judge (if the tenants take legal action) that the suit is retaliatory.
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  • Max T.
    Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y
    What does your lease say? Look for something like termination due to uninhabitable condition. They have no case against you.
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  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    Every place has detectable mold. If it is harmful you need to remediate.  Schedule the mold company and enter as allowed for such urgent conditions regardless with 24 hours notice if that is the timeframe allowed in your area.   Really you keep paying for them to stay in a hotel while they don't let you enter the apartment they aren't living in?  I would consider they are paranoid about entry because maybe there is something they were doing that is contributing. Mold needs moisture to grow.

    Look in the lease for inhabitable conditions clause to see if you can terminate the lease based on that. I would have a landlord/tenant lawyer look at the lease to see if there is anything you can use in the lease to do this and also to advise on the hotel aspect. You can't continue to cover hotels. Did they pay March rent? I believe they need to put rent in escrow if they withhold it. Basically even if you remediate if it is from the shared ventilation it won't be fixed I would think. I would not worry so much about them suing as I would about acting legally now and stopping the financial bleeding ASAP. A couple of things to explore include insurance yours, the HOA, and thier renters insurance (do they have coverage, has it paid for any of their expenses?). May be limited coverage but could be some. You don't want to be accused of retaliation for the complaint but basically this tenant relationship after threatening to sue is not going anywhere good so now or later you are going to want to get the tenants out of the place. Sounds like you were very prompt to respond and very supportive so you will look good as far as that is considered. Try to end this ASAP. And getting an HOA to pay for anything may take legal action on your part.

    3Reply
  • Samantha Jee
    OP
    Redmond, WA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    This is her email today

    Here are a list of our requests. Depending on how this situation continues to unfold, my requests may be adjusted or added to.

    1. Pay for separate hotel rooms for Amy and I until we locate new places to live. I am out of town until Sunday 3/12 so I do not need one until Sunday.

    2. Professionally disinfect our property by a professional agreed upon by all of us and then move our property to our new place(s) (Amy and I may have to find places separately).

    3. In the meantime if our items need to be placed in storage, pay for storage fees until they can be disinfected and moved to our new place. Our property can only be moved under our supervision.

    4. Replace our beds with same quality beds. My bed was bought brand new when I moved in, I am requesting the exact same bed.

    5. Pay inconvenience fees for food, replacement clothes while we've been displaced, gas money searching for new place, application fees for applying to new apartment buildings, etc.

    6. Return our security deposits and our last month rent that we paid upfront in full

    As stated in my email about the mold remediation: 1. You are not allowed to enter the unit until you provide us a copy of the license of the mold remediation company.

    2. You are not allowed to enter the unit until it is confirmed by a licensed inspector that there are no asbestos. The building is grossly neglected in regards to maintenance. Built in 1969, it is 48 years old. You cannot open up walls with our property in there until we confirm there are no asbestos.

    I have spoken to an attorney who has also listed the following damages:

    1. Costs of new lease and increased rent for new place(s)

    2. Return of all of our rent payments

    3. Loss of earnings

    4. Attorneys fees and costs if we pursue action

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  • Samantha Jee
    OP
    Redmond, WA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    Does she have any case  against us?^^

    0Reply
  • Kyle Hipp
    Investor · Appleton, WI · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 464 votes
    9y

    You started taking action soon as you discovered an issue. You have done everything you can do. You should not be paying for a hotel room but rather have them file a claim on their rental insurance. That will cover all of their belongings, food, ECT. I would not pay for any of their "demands". They would have to prove intentional neglect and negligence. Keep records of what all of your correspondence with the tenants. California might have some tighter laws on entry and privacy but your property manager should be well informed on them. The mold remediation company should be more than competent to handle the remediation. I would have your property management company inform them of the tenants concerns so they take extra care in their procedures

    0Reply
  • Christine Mwai
    Investor · Alabaster, AL · Member since 2016 · 280 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    Save those emails.

    0Reply
  • Christine Mwai
    Investor · Alabaster, AL · Member since 2016 · 280 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    Goodness gracious!! Sorry you are dealing with this. These tenants seem over the top. I think it is time you consult a good attorney to protect your interests, know where you stand and how to legally put an end to this manipulative situation. How in the world can they claim there is mold then dictate when and how it will be remediated while you provide alternative rooming... and now they want A-Z... consult an attorney and get out of this situation ASAP. Best wishes.

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  • Lynn McGeein
    Real Estate Agent · Virginia Beach, VA · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    I think this is where you contact your landlord and umbrella insurance companies and find out if it is a covered claim, as they may be much more knowledgeable about how to handle this situation than you are.  

    0Reply
  • Samantha Jee
    OP
    Redmond, WA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    Now my PM is saying we can't even give her 30 day notice but need to give her 6 months to vacate... is this right??

    0Reply
  • Peter MacKercherBusiness Member
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 567 votes
    9y

    @Samantha Jee You've probably heard the line about seeking legal advice online... if you think you might need a lawyer, you should already have contacted one. 

    That demand email makes them sound unreasonable (read: delusional). Gas money? Replacement clothes? Difference in rent? I've heard that California has tenant-favoring laws, but that email, my god; I know Disneyland is in California but I think they have you confused with the genie from Aladdin... I could go on and on about each item she listed, because the entire thing sounds insane to me.

    Disclaimer: I'm not licensed in CA, so I don't know what the landlord-tenant laws are there, nor do I have any clue how this will shake out in that legal environment, but I can't imagine you're liable for more than the remediation and a hotel bill during the time they're displaced. Is the mold detected even dangerous or harmful? As has been pointed out, mold is everywhere, you'll find it anytime you test, pretty much. About their belongings, renter's insurance exists for a reason and they should be pursuing that to "replace our beds with the same quality beds". 

    Since you have a PM now use them and have any calls or emails directed to them. They'll be required to keep records and follow the letter of the law about proper notice for/and access to the unit. Keep all of your communications with the tenants since they're using the L word. See if your PM can recommend an RE lawyer, and shop for your own, to be sure your bases are covered.

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  • Samantha Jee
    OP
    Redmond, WA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    Yes i keep telling this girl to contact only my PM but she doesn't listen... and she has renter's insurance but refuses to use it and wants us to pay for everything...

    0Reply
  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    I am so sorry you have to deal with this, take a deep breath and try not to let it get to you.

    Do not respond. Let me say that again do not respond!

    Two words-  Lawyer and Insurance.  I would stand by  the notice to enter for tomorrow to remediate.  Contact a landlord/tenant lawyer.  have someone take pictures lots and lots of them when you enter. Did they pay March rent? If they did not pay rent bring that to the attention of your lawyer, it could matter in whether you can get them out.

    Stop paying for any expenses for them immediately (you can always reimburse anything you want to or are found to be responsible for later). Direct any communications through your lawyer. Do not be afraid she will sue, you are acting immediately, you are moving quickly, you are mitigating damages by doing so. She can always sue, doesn't mean she has a case or damages.

    Whatever lawyer she contacted (if she did) is filling her head with crazy. I suspect she did not contact anyone because these damages are all in layperson terms. Look at them, a lawyer would have written or told her how to write a decent communication including some legalese.  

    My opinion is she is an unqualified nutcase.............. return all of our rent payments (for past occupancy, really?),  pay for our new lease.... pay for increased rent? asbestos in the walls.....oh my goodness the building is 48 years old...really that has changes since she moved in?   Recognize she is trying to terrorize you.. she is counting on your fear to motivate you to respond to her and give her things you are not obligated to,  don't let that happen especially because the more she gets the more she will want.

    0Reply
  • Matthew Paul
    Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    9y

    Get an attorney NOW .  

    1Reply
  • Samantha Jee
    OP
    Redmond, WA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    I don't respond to any of her crazy emails. I let our PM communicate with her. I agree the more we give into anything the more she demands so I told the PM i refuse to give her anything further. We were trying to be generous and kind but that stops immediately. If she sues us she sues us.  So far the PM has been consulting her own lawyer but we are also looking into getting our own. It's just such a big freaking annoying headache. 

    0Reply
  • Christine Mwai
    Investor · Alabaster, AL · Member since 2016 · 280 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    BTW, your PM also has some questions to answer. How often did they conduct inspections on this property if there is indeed harmful mold?... the company that tested the mold (and I would get at least 2 opinions), should be able to document in pictures the degree of mold build up... mold grows in stages. So, if there is truly long term mold, your PM is liable too.

    0Reply
  • Samantha Jee
    OP
    Redmond, WA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    we literally hired our PM the weekend the tenant mentioned mold. no other tenant has ever mentioned this. the PM came and took a lot of pictures of leaks in the garage that are directly under the unit. She thinks this is a primary cause of the mold.

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    You're being ripped off by the PM. First, fire the PM immediately.  And write them a letter saying you're going to sue them if they try to assert any claim about you owing them money for terminating the contract. That you suspect they have orchestrated this whole fiasco.  My daughter had a similar scheme happen to her with a PM, and this tact worked with them.

    Next, your contract probably says that if the place is ever deemed uninhabitable, that the contract is void.  Therefore, you don't owe them anything, and the contract is over.

    Also, if a tenant is ever displaced because of a place needing repairs, etc., it's up to their renter's insurance to pay for a hotel.  All you are ever responsible for, is the amount of rent per day they would have paid you.

    I'd write a letter to the tenant that the contract is void, as they have deemed the place uninhabitable, and that you will not be paying for anything more.  That you consider what you have already paid in hotel bills to be a settlement for any inconvenience to them. But, if they decide to sue you, you will counter-sue to be reimbursed for any money you paid them, including hotel rooms, that was not required by law.

    Then, if they actually sue you, get a lawyer.

    Learn how to manage your own properties, or get out of the business, is my advice.  It's a very rare property owner who actually makes money if they are also paying a PM.  PMs make money when there are problems.  There is no incentive for them to find you good tenants or to do repairs in a fashion that saves you money - because they usually profit whenever there are repairs, or finding tenants, or kicking out tenants, etc., etc.  

    Get this book:

    http://store.nolo.com/products/the-california-land...

    2Reply
  • Samantha Jee
    OP
    Redmond, WA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    that's an interesting viewpoint. thanks for sharing.

    definitely after this is over i'm selling and not looking back!!

    0Reply
  • Ralph R.
    Investor · Bethel, AK · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 852 votes
    9y

    @Samantha Jee  Hmmmm lots of advice on here some by people that really don't know.  some by people that have experience and do know.  

    1) You hired a PM.  you are paying him to answer these questions.  let them do their job.  stop responding to her e-mails phone calls etc.  she cant communicate with you if you stop talking.  if you have something to say to them say it through your attorney or your PM.  the last thing you should say to her or maybe one of the things your pm should say to her is your attorneys name and phone number.  let them direct their threats to the lawyer he'll tell you the ones to worry about.  that will stop the idle threats to you.  make them put up or shut up. 

    2) stop asking these questions online.  if this happened to me I would be busy finding out the answers from the people I pay to give me the right answers.  the best you can get on here is opinions, including mine, and they are worth exactly what you pay for them.  Hire an attorney.  ask him if the girls have a case. talk to your insurance company.  communicate with the PM.  use the tools that you have put in place, and are paying for already.  start managing! 

    3) call your insurance company. you are paying them already they are most likely liable to pay the motel room. (unless you neglected to buy landlords insurance.) let your insurance decide how many rooms, then let the girls fight with them about it. and dont forget the insurance may help you determine liability for the mold. after all your insurance company may be the ones that need to pay for it. same as roof damage. let your insurance fight with the HOA. I bet even the HOA doesn't know if they are liable or not but its a lead pipe cinch they arnt going to admit it even if they are liable. if its between the hoa and your insurance your insurance will dig up the truth. My Land lord insurance also has a clause about loss of rent. mine pays the rent (loss of income) and motel until the damage is repaired. if your insurance isnt liable then heres question number 2 for your attorney. Can you make the HOA pay? Remember your loosing rent as well as all these other expenses.

    4)  this might should have been number 1.  Remember this is a business not a family squabble. CALM DOWN, act professional, make well thought out decisions that will further your business.  the more people you have between you and your tenants right now the better.  your in a hardball game now.  its not little league anymore.

    this will all work out, and how you respond to it will like as not determine your success or failure in the future.  in a couple years it wont make a difference one way or the other any how.  remember all the people on here that talk about the lessons they have learned? and the expense of those lessons? that's exactly what this is.  try to learn from it and MANAGE through it the best you can.  after all you are the boss here.  its your money your rental  the lessons here go beyond real estate.  this is how you learn to manage past something rather than simply react.  forget the fight or flight stuff make sound decisions and Manage through it!!  you will get a more harmonious outcome.  RR

    0Reply
  • Samantha Jee
    OP
    Redmond, WA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    ^^ thanks for your advice RR. I am trying to find an attorney, i don't respond to this tenant, i'm working with our insurance and PM. no one can seem to give me any definitive answers so i'm seeking advice from those who have BTDT... 

    you're right, i am emotional about this b/c it's infuriatingly unfair and i'm upset we have this very unreasonable person to deal with.

    0Reply
  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y

    @Samantha Jee , Please take a moment to create a timeline - as close to the hour as you can - for when you contacted them about the increase in rent, when they contacted you about the mold, etc.

    Keep adding to the timeline as more things come up. You have shown that you took serious steps to mitigate this mold as soon as it was brought up. I'm not sure I would have acted as quickly as you did in this same scenario, I would probably have chalked it up to the rent increase.

    These girls probably have watched too much TV. While you are required to provide a habitable property, you can't really take care of things you don't know about. 

    Start your documentation now - they probably will take you to court because they are convinced they are right and you owe them the world. That doesn't mean they will win. The best defense you have is your professional and immediate actions. Good luck and keep us posted.

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    BiggerPockets
    1Reply
  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Mindy Jensen:

    @Samantha Jee 

    ... While you are required to provide a habitable property, you can't really take care of things you don't know about. 

    ...

    Plus the situation is being aggravated by their refusal to allow you to remediate ASAP by which you would be mitigating things.

    1Reply
  • Samantha Jee
    OP
    Redmond, WA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    One lawyer we consulted said we can use this clause in our lease to tell them they need to leave in 3 days.

    'if the unit becomes partially or totally destroyed so that the tenant's use is totally impaired, either tenant or landlord can terminate this agreement immediately within three days written notice to the other." 

    Our property management doesn't think this applies to our situation and we can't give 3 days notice but this lawyer thinks this clause definitely applies to the mold situation. Any input?

    0Reply
  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    9y

    Aren't the tenants basically telling you this is the case, because they are looking elsewhere?

    0Reply
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