Heeeelp!! Tenant issues and mold

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Heeeelp!! Tenant issues and mold

Samantha Jee
Redmond, WA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 0 votes

I'm not a professional landlord but we have a condo in LA that we rented out b/c we moved states due to a job. We've rented for 3 years with zero issues. 7 months ago we rented to a girl named Sandi and another girl named Lily. They were fine but i whenever i had to have someone go in there to fix something they resented it b/c they said they were busy professionals and didn't want to deal with any upkeep. so i decided to hire a property management company. i told them due to increases in tax and HOA, i needed to raise the rent $100 each. Sandi freaks out and writes long rambling emails about how there's dirt and mold that we've hidden from them from the start that she's just now discovering. I have no idea what she means as she's never mentioned this. We hire a property manager that weekend and within 3 days she's out there and decides a mold inspector needs to come. He comes within 2 days and with extensive tests find there are leaks from the shared pipes throughout the HOA and our place has detectable mold.

So he said its best if the girls move out since the mold seems throughout the unit. We have been paying for them to stay in hotels the last couple of weeks. We are trying to get the mold remediation company to go in there and fix this but the girls are freaking out that we are violating their privacy. Our PM insists the mold remediation company can go in with 24 hour notice so they will start the work Fri.

I have two issues. First, I am paying thousands for this remediation as well as for cleaning their personal possessions and the hotel. Is the HOA resposible for any of this? They said no. My PM thinks yes.

Second issue is that these girls are very hostile, not actively looking to move out it appears, and have mentioned suing us. Do they have a case? They literally never mentioned mold until 2 weeks ago, on a Saturday. By the following Tues (Monday was Pres Day) we had inspectors out there and are trying our best to fix this. I'm really stressed they will sue us for thousands and thousands. Any adivce? Anyone BTDT?

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Colleen F.Pro Member
Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
9y

Every place has detectable mold. If it is harmful you need to remediate.  Schedule the mold company and enter as allowed for such urgent conditions regardless with 24 hours notice if that is the timeframe allowed in your area.   Really you keep paying for them to stay in a hotel while they don't let you enter the apartment they aren't living in?  I would consider they are paranoid about entry because maybe there is something they were doing that is contributing. Mold needs moisture to grow.

Look in the lease for inhabitable conditions clause to see if you can terminate the lease based on that. I would have a landlord/tenant lawyer look at the lease to see if there is anything you can use in the lease to do this and also to advise on the hotel aspect. You can't continue to cover hotels. Did they pay March rent? I believe they need to put rent in escrow if they withhold it. Basically even if you remediate if it is from the shared ventilation it won't be fixed I would think. I would not worry so much about them suing as I would about acting legally now and stopping the financial bleeding ASAP. A couple of things to explore include insurance yours, the HOA, and thier renters insurance (do they have coverage, has it paid for any of their expenses?). May be limited coverage but could be some. You don't want to be accused of retaliation for the complaint but basically this tenant relationship after threatening to sue is not going anywhere good so now or later you are going to want to get the tenants out of the place. Sounds like you were very prompt to respond and very supportive so you will look good as far as that is considered. Try to end this ASAP. And getting an HOA to pay for anything may take legal action on your part.

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  • Peter MacKercherBusiness Member
    Residential Real Estate Broker · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 567 votes
    9y

    The thing about law is that it requires a lot of interpretation, as language is tricky and definitely not unambiguous. You have at least two presumably qualified professional opinions now, and you also have discretion on how you choose to act on their advice. 

    Let's consider why you might get different interpretations from the same clause:

    The lawyer is reading the clause with specific attention to the actual use of the unit.  The tenants are acting as if they're completely unable to live there anymore, which does "impair their use" as they seem to believe, and as @Steve Babiak pointed out. Basically the lawyer is confident they can argue their position in court based on the intent of the clause and by the actual actions of the tenants in how they regard their use of the property, since the two do seem to match up.

    The PM doesn't want this to get taken to court (you don't either, but this situation is untenable and running up a bill). The PM knows that this is a remediable situation and that their use isn't actually impaired by the unit being "destroyed", that being the key, operative, and literal word in their mind. 

    Both have an interest in the outcomes they're suggesting: court costs = income for a lawyer, tenants in place = income for the PM (and you). 

    This is a big bite to swallow since your relationships with these two folks are both new and you haven't done the legal dance before in your capacity as a landlord before. You're going to have to pick what outcome you want that seems reasonable based upon the lease you've signed with the tenants and move forward with that. Be fair but be prepared in case the tenants continue to be unreasonable. If you act in good faith according to the agreement you have with them, and as required by law, you'll fare much better should this go sideways and land in court.

    Standard disclaimers: I'm neither a lawyer nor licensed in CA, so feel free to disregard everything I've said!

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  • Samantha Jee
    OP
    Redmond, WA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    i'm feeling more and more like the PM isn't fully out for our own interests. i'm not sure why she kept telling the tenants from the start basically we would pay for everything including cleaning their possessions and moving their things for them. the attorney said we don't owe any of that. the PM never set a deadline either for them to move out. 

    i feel like we have done what we can. we gave them 3 weeks of hotel stays. when they move out i'll offer them $1,000 each for any expenses they incur as well as their security deposit back $1500 each.  i'm sure they will still not be happy but at this point i don't think anything will.

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  • Samantha Jee
    OP
    Redmond, WA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    Another question -- the girls moved to a hotel late february. they did not pay march rent. are they supposed to be paying us rent still?

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  • Curtis BidwellPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Olympia, WA · Member since 2014 · 777 posts · 744 votes
    9y

    @Samantha Jee 

    1. I assume you did a walk thru with them when they moved in to document the condition of the unit.  If so, you acted in good faith.  

    2. Read your contract thoroughly. Do you require insurance? You stated they have insurance but dont want to use it. Your insurance covers your liability and your property, it won't cover their property. Their insurance covers their possessions (for whatever reason lost or damamged). 

    I have had tenants request restitution for a variety of things.  I always tell them to take that up with their insurance. If they don't want to deal with their insurance, they don't really want restitution (hotel, bed, clothes, moving expense, etc). It's their choice.

    3. Read you HOA docs. This sounds like it is probably the responsibility of the HOA to remedy. But chances are you will need a lawyer to make that happen ...in a timely fashion (and you can charge them for that cost). We had a 'relatively minor' issue of $300 that took the HOA 18 months to reimburse after endless discussion!

    Good luck! 

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  • Curtis BidwellPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Olympia, WA · Member since 2014 · 777 posts · 744 votes
    9y

    @Samantha Jee You said, "...3 weeks of hotel stays. when they move out i'll offer them $1,000 each for any expenses they incur as well as their security deposit back $1500 each. i'm sure they will still not be happy but at this point i don't think anything will." and you are absolutely right, you cannot make them happy, so quit trying to!  These all sound noble, but the only thing you are doing is trying to appease your own sense of guilt, which is misplaced.  You have acted in good faith.

    And yes, they still owe rent as long as you are under contract. (They could place rent in escrow under certain circumstances but I believe that would require court approval.)

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  • Account Closed
    San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Samantha Jee:

    Another question -- the girls moved to a hotel late february. they did not pay march rent. are they supposed to be paying us rent still?

     First, trust your lawyer.  Second, if they sue you, they most likely will use small claims court, where no lawyers are allowed.  All you have to do is show up with your documentation and let the judge make a decision.  

    If they do sue you, counter-sue them for all of the rent they didn't pay, and all of the hotel money you spent.  You might not get it all back, but you want to ask for the moon.  There is no penalty whatsoever for being wrong in small claims court.  It's like slinging mud on the wall and hoping some of it sticks, without having to pay for a lawyer.  But, you still get a lawyer in the form of a judge who will look at everything - for free - and make a decision for you.

    The judge might even say that they owe you money, instead of the other way around.  

    It's by far the cheapest option.

    And odds are, that if/when they go get advice on how much they can sue you for, the lawyer/fair housing people will tell them they should be glad of what you've done for them, and they could owe you money if they sue you, so they should leave well enough alone.

    And, as I said, I'd tell the manager to forget about getting any more money from you, and if they disagree, they're welcome to sue you and you'll counter-sue them, as well.

    I've had excellent experiences using this tactic.  Call their bluff and invite people to sue you, and expect to be counter-sued.  Just say you're happy to take the matter to court and trust the judge.  Odds are very great that they will back down.

    As I said, PMs by and large, make money when there are problems.  So, there was no incentive for this PM to make the problems go away.

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  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Samantha Jee:

    Another question -- the girls moved to a hotel late february. they did not pay march rent. are they supposed to be paying us rent still?

    In most areas, when habitability or lack of repairs become an issue, the rent is supposed to be paid into an escrow account. So look into what that entails in your area; it usually means you might not be getting paid directly. Since you have retained the services of an attorney already, why aren't you getting this sort of legal advice from that attorney? Not that we aren't willing to assist, but sometimes that local expertise is what you need to fall back on.

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  • Samantha Jee
    OP
    Redmond, WA · Member since 2017 · 15 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    i'm just getting started with this attorney. we will have a phone conversation on monday and will hire him on. he hasn't told us his rates yet. kinda scared to hear it! 

    i'm just feeling really anxious about all this and hearing all your answers here help a lot.

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  • Randall Brown
    Investor · Santa Cruz, CA · Member since 2016 · 71 posts · 39 votes
    9y

    our leases (California) have a paragraph about storage:

    "STORAGE: Lessee shall have no right of storage hereunder and the Lessor shall not be liable for any loss of property by theft or burglary or otherwise from the Premises or the building, or for any accidental damage to person or property in or about the Premises."

    Do you have such a clause? If their new bed got damaged from mold or whatever, they can make a claim on their renter's insurance. Not your responsibility, unless they can prove that you acted negligent.

    (We also have a clause requesting that the tenants carry renter's insurance and add the landlord as a beneficiary.. of course nobody ever does that.)

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  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    If they didn't pay March rent why would you be paying for a hotel?   There is no housing they are paying for unless rent is in escrow which I doubt. Make sure you share with the attorney that they did not pay march rent. The lawyer is best qualified to advise you on legal aspects not the PM so give him the full lease and move forward it may be the best money you spend.  If they are going to take you to court $1000  is not going to stop them so I wouldn't do it, spend that money on the lawyer. Deposit return I probably would not mess with. 

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  • Scott B.
    Rental Property Investor · Puyallup, WA · Member since 2016 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    @Samantha Jee Any news to the outcome of this mess? It sounded like a handful and a half.

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