Fighting back - CSC / Coinmach increased laundry fees by 9.75%

Fighting back - CSC / Coinmach increased laundry fees by 9.75%

Investor · Hacienda Heights, CA · Member since 2015 · 31 posts · 42 votes

It's no secret to any investors and landlords out there that many laundry rental companies are unscrupulous. Well, here's another example with CSC, who owns CoinMach. Except this time, I'm fighting back. The ROI of this effort is certainly not worth my time even if I win, but enough is enough. We, as investors, can't keep letting these companies bully us around. Companies bullying customers via contract terms is a pet peeve of mine, given my experience leading strategic sourcing teams.

I have a fourplex in California that has a laundry room with washer & dryer managed by CSC / Coinmach.  I got a letter in May, stating that "Beginning this month, you will see an Administrative Fee of 9.75% deducted from your gross collection."  I heard they sent this letter to all their customers.  With a 50/50 revenue split, this means they just shaved off about 20% of my net laundry income.  I read through the agreement to make sure this is not allowed per the contract, and I called them up to ask them about this.  The area manager called me back and said it is totally within their right because there's a clause that states that the payment to me is revenue split "... less any sales, use, property taxes and/or license or occupational fees".  He said this increase qualifies as "occupational fees".  I said the letter sent by CSC clearly indicates that the increase is due to "investments in people, systems, technology and service delivery", and not a fee related to occupying the space.  He said... and this totally cracked me up... "these fees are incurred because we have our equipment in your laundry room."  So, in conclusion, his point is -- Because CSC / Coinmach is in the business of occupying people's laundry rooms and putting equipment in them, any and all business expense qualifies as "occupational fees", and they can increase the fees unilaterally, in any amount, per the agreement.  This argument is just so outrageous that I'm frankly surprised their lawyers bought off on it.

I've led Strategic Sourcing groups for two Fortune 500 companies before, where my sole job was to negotiate contracts with suppliers and service providers and draft contracts with our corporate legal teams, ranging in amounts of up to tens of millions of dollars.  So while I'm not a lawyer, I'm no stranger to contract terms.  From my experience, I also know that the sales managers have zero power to change their legal stance, so it was pointless to argue with him.  Only their lawyers and senior management can change the terms on something that applies to all their customers.  They have a team of highly-paid lawyers, I have logic.  It's a textbook case of David vs. Goliath, but I'm willing to give it a try.  I've already served them a notice of breach of contract and my intent to terminate, we'll see where we go from here.  Depending on their response, I may start an online petition with my fellow investors, all of their customers.  The petition may help me push back on this increase, and all other investors can then use this ruling to either terminate the contract with them to go with someone else, or at least block the increase in fee.  Anyone else interested?

6Reply
410 views

Most Popular Reply

Professional · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 67 posts · 34 votes
9y

@Ivan Lai What's the cost of switching with the competition? 

Also, what's the contract terms (length, the extent of services provides)?

See this reply in the discussion

47 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Professional · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 67 posts · 34 votes
    9y

    @Ivan Lai What's the cost of switching with the competition? 

    Also, what's the contract terms (length, the extent of services provides)?

  • Investor · Hacienda Heights, CA · Member since 2015 · 31 posts · 42 votes
    9y

    @ Dominic Bouchard, the service provided is that they put coin-operated washers & dryers in my laundry room, they make sure the equipment is functional and collect the coins, and split the collected revenue with me.  I'm roughly 6 months into the 2-year contract.  Not sure I understand the cost question.

  • Professional · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 67 posts · 34 votes
    9y

    @Ivan Lai Right. The cost question is to evaluate your loss should you decide to terminate the contract. 

    Look what the clause regarding termination of your contract indicate. A 2 years contract should state when/how or if it's possible to terminate. 

    To me, a company allowed to raise its bargained share without renegotiation is shady at best. You should be able to change company if initial terms are not respected "under reasonable circumstances." 

    Note: this is not a legal opinion but only a common sense argument.

    You should quickly check that with a lawyer. And I'd like to know what you decide for your next move. I'm assuming you're not the only one in this situation...

    Hope that help!

  • Hesperia, CA · Member since 2017 · 2 posts · 1 vote
    9y

    Ivan,

    I also received that same letter from CSC/Coinmach and first initiated a request for information back on May 25, emailing my account rep the following
    I just received a copy of a letter about an upcoming administrative fee being assessed on our agreements, which I need some clarifications on.

    First, could you advise me of the clause in our leases that actually allows this to be charged? It seems to me to be a substantial breach of contract. If that is the case, though, then I would expect a reciprocal understanding of (Our Company) cost of providing the laundry facilities. Please let me know where I can send a bill for the increase of our personal costs from minimum wage increases, and the substantial increase in utility costs for our water, gas and electricity. All of these utilities have substantially increased over the term of our contracts, particularly given the years of drought.

    Second, it mentioned an approximate .10 per day, per machine cost. I would like clarification if this is a general marketing number, or specific to our properties. Either way, I would like a more formal estimate from CSC's Accounting Department based on last year's revenue for each property and a total annual cost compared to our revenue.

    Third, I would like a breakdown of the extra costs CSC alleges they are incurring that require this fee, specific to each of (Company's) communities. It would be helpful to have a breakdown of ALL refunds, clothing claim processing and vandalism/damage costs for our communities in the last 5 years, as these are specific points mentioned per CSC's informational website http://www.cscsw.com/feetransparency/.

    Please let me know before this admin fee gets processed and assessed on our bills.

    After many delayed responses and "need to check on that and get back to you", I was provided back with the clauses on the feetransparency website.

    After further requests for specific numbers, I received our commission check on June 16th and discovered the fee had been assessed (with a more than 50% impact reducing revenue!!), to which I followed up with..


    I've attached a picture of our latest commission check, which has had the administration fee imposed.

    I would like to advise you that I believe this to be a breach of contract, as I still haven't been contacted by the legal department to be advised of the legality of this, despite having brought it to your attention more than 3 weeks ago.

    Furthermore, the letter received from Mark Hjelle advising us of the proposed fee estimates the fee at approximately .10 per machine/per day, which should be .10 x 30 days x 4 machines or $12.00. The fee was $19.04, so the letter underestimated the financial impact by over 50%, in what I think was deliberately misleading and an intentionally dishonest attempt to undervalue the costs passed on to CSC's Customers.

    To further the underhandedness, appropriate noticing and time frame implementation was not sent out. Mr Hjelle's letter was printed on May 17th, and not received until the following week, Monday May 23rd, though the fee was already being processed. His words were "this month", not "next month" for customers to appropriately plan for or question the change. Having done that and asked for clarification on lease clauses 3 weeks ago, I still do not have answers.

    With a blatant breach of contract and what are clearly deceptive practices, I would like CSC to terminate the remaining two contracts on these grounds. CSC's attempts to slyly and dishonestly force these changes upon us are unacceptable.

    Please process the termination of leases, with enough time to coordinate installation with a new provider.

    That was June 16th, and have still not received a response from legal, who I emailed directly 2 days ago.

    I spoke with my rep today and despite 1 month and 5 days, they have no specific information on my requests I will have to speak with the Area Manager on Monday. Though the rep said the area manager did not have the power to terminate the lease, and that there are MANY MANY frustrated companies expressing the same issue.

    Thank you for the response that you received, I will keep you posted and likewise ask that you can do the same. If there is anyway to escalate this or increase exposure please let me know. This is immoral and wrong on so many levels and was very inappropriately handled.

    Kind Regards,
    Jeff

  • Investor · Hyattsville, MD · Member since 2012 · 822 posts · 441 votes
    9y

    I think your main way to fight back is to switch providers, though that is more work replacing machines and contracts than I'm interested in taking on at this time. One of my condo buildings got the same letter. We're not taking any action at this time, though we are peaved at the increase...

  • Investor · Hacienda Heights, CA · Member since 2015 · 31 posts · 42 votes
    9y

    @Jeff Bryant, thanks for sharing your experience.  It's pretty clear that if you wait for them to give you the green light to terminate the agreement, that will never happen.  They are trained to never terminate the agreement early, and to trick customers into automatically renewing contracts so they are always locked in.  I took the action to notify them of their breach, and notified them that the agreement is terminated due to their intent not to remedy the breach.  They still didn't respond, so I terminated the agreement.  I'll respond to you separately with more info if you'd like, just don't want to spell out all the specific details on this forum. 

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y
    I recently bought my own commercial WD and have them pay via kiosk. I literally threw my Coinmach machines in the sidewalk. They're crooks IMO
  • Kansas City, MO · Member since 2015 · 609 posts · 321 votes
    9y

    I have them and got that letter. They were inherited so to speak, so I haven't signed anything with them. I need to review their terms

  • Rental Property Investor · Auburn, ME · Member since 2015 · 236 posts · 140 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Cody L.:

    I recently bought my own commercial WD and have them pay via kiosk.

    I literally threw my Coinmach machines in the sidewalk.

    They're crooks IMO

     Which machines did you go with? I am currently looking to replace a washer that is dying a slow painful death. 

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Carl Hebert:
    Originally posted by @Cody L.:

    I recently bought my own commercial WD and have them pay via kiosk.

    I literally threw my Coinmach machines in the sidewalk.

    They're crooks IMO

     Which machines did you go with? I am currently looking to replace a washer that is dying a slow painful death. 

     Maytag commercial machines.  Some stacked, some side by side.  They've worked well.  We have that VTM box in our office that puts cash credits onto these little cards (that are sold by that same machine for $5)

  • Rental Property Investor · Auburn, ME · Member since 2015 · 236 posts · 140 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Cody L.:
    Originally posted by @Carl Hebert:
    Originally posted by @Cody L.:

    I recently bought my own commercial WD and have them pay via kiosk.

    I literally threw my Coinmach machines in the sidewalk.

    They're crooks IMO

     Which machines did you go with? I am currently looking to replace a washer that is dying a slow painful death. 

     Maytag commercial machines.  Some stacked, some side by side.  They've worked well.  We have that VTM box in our office that puts cash credits onto these little cards (that are sold by that same machine for $5)

    Thanks I will look into them. 

  • Portland, OR · Member since 2017 · 2 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    I was just searching this matter. We would absolutely be interested in starting / joining a class action lawsuit.

    The language in their contract does NOT allow for an arbitrary charge.  We have notified them of the material breech in their contract obligations and have allowed them time to cure the deficiency. 

    Keep me in the loop on this. I will not accept their ridiculous charge and will aggressively join any combined effort to have it overturned.

    Cheers!

  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    What did anyone's attorney say about all this?

  • Portland, OR · Member since 2017 · 2 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    I am following up....I am in the process of seeing who would like to join in legal action against CSC Serviceworks? They are currently rolling out the 9.75% administrative fee slowly in a few states at a time. This way they can avoid people rushing online to complain. If people do not see these complaints online than they will think that only THEY are complaining = no action. Very deceptive of them to roll it our slowly like this.

    We need to get the word out that we will NOT allow this material breech of contract to happen. The increase is not in the contract and we did not agree to cover their inability to control their corporate overhead nationally. Why should I pay for high vandalism in Chicago, Detroit, California, or Texas? We negotiated the contracts individually based on our facilities and took less in % based on the agreed upon set commission. Had we known it would change we would have asked for more! Taking 25-30% of our total income is absurd! Our water bill, internet, electricity and laundry facilities are NO LONGER PROFITABLE NOW. Think about it....how much is your overhead (Utilities and SQ/FT use combined). The contract cannot be enforced if it changes arbitrarily because THEIR overhead increases! What about our increases? Unfair!  

    They have hinted to some that they would sue if the machines are removed. So I say we fight back. Let's start taking this viral and gain support through social media advertising. They are trying to censor the issue. I want my money back and their machines off of our ALL of our properties. We have 56 apartments. If everyone just placed the machines at the curb than they would be overwhelmed! That is a an option of last resort...I prefer legal action first. So.... who's in with us? 

  • Investor · Danville, CA · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    Mike, I would be interested in joining any action against CSC.  We have three communities where they applied this bogus 9.75% fee, which has absolutely no contractual support.  Let me know where things stand for you.  Thanks.

  • Investor · Hacienda Heights, CA · Member since 2015 · 31 posts · 42 votes
    9y

    Mike and Darren, count me in!  I already notified them of their breach of contract and my intent to terminate, and since they did not respond, I've removed their machines from the laundry room. And the more people act together, the more powerful we can be. I'm all for joining forces!

  • Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Just an idea.  Why don't you just contact any local laundry mat?  Let them buy the machines or you buy the machine and they maintain them for a split.  I do not see a benefit of dealing with a large company for this service.

  • San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    Good for you all!  I think you should contact some class action lawyers.  Wouldn't cost you anything to do so.  Another option would be to tell these guys you expect them to remove their machines and/or reimburse you whatever you might be out of pocket, and you expect them to agree to terminating the contract - or - you intend to begin interviewing class action lawyers.

    It's not blackmail - it's perfectly legal to "settle" using the leverage of agreeing not to sue in exchange for something.

  • Investor · Hacienda Heights, CA · Member since 2015 · 31 posts · 42 votes
    9y

    I just sent them (via certified mail) a notice of breach of contract to them to let them know they're in breach of contract, noted that in my phone call they stated they had no intention to remedy the breach, so I gave them a date for termination when I'll unplug the machines, and when the date came, I unplugged the machine and moved them outside.  I gave them a period of time for them to pick it up, they no longer get money from my tenants.  This at least limits my loss, they can take me to court if they want.  The did come by to collect the remaining coins but haven't picked up their machines yet.

  • Investor · Danville, CA · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    Good approach. I have to take a little more measured angle because these machines serve about 300 units spread across 3 properties.  So, I don't want to hurt my tenants due to a dispute I am in with the service provider.  Also, I don't want to go through the brain damage of getting rid of their machines, finding a new vendor and negotiating new contracts.  I want them to perform according to the contract they agreed to.  Of course, when the leases are up, I will absolutely go to CSC's competitor (WASH), even if I get a worse deal there.  At least I would be able to rely on WASH honoring their agreement, rather than trying to change it in the middle of the contract term without any legitimate contractual basis.  CSC has been so disingenuous in this whole thing. I can't believe that they thought this was a good idea and that somebody - lawyers, board members, etc. - didn't talk them out of moving forward.

  • Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2016 · 736 posts · 582 votes
    9y

    @Ivan Lai - this is from the perspective of a guy that specializes in sales/use/property/excise/and occupational taxes (I've been doing this for over 25 years).

    Generally, when a rental contract is written, the Tax Department and the Attorneys get together so they can create wording in the contract that allows any taxes charged to the business (CSC) to get passed on to the customer (you).

    I've not worked with a company that rents laundry machines, but I've worked with a lot of companies that lease equipment - everything from vending machines to telecommunications equipment to a company where I currently work that leases credit card terminal type equipment.

    Your profile indicates you have units in Southern California and in Houston.

    I'm just guessing because I don't know specifics...

    Los Angeles has a "Business Occupation Tax".  The city is extremely aggressive about going after businesses/taxpayers in the city.  There are other cities and counties in California that have the same.

    The City of Houston has a Coin Operated Machine registration based on the number of machines which is separate from the Harris County coin operated machine registration/tax.  These things can be very time consuming/complicated.

    It could be that CSC is trying to pass through their tax bill to you.  That's perfectly legal in a lease.  It could be that they were audited by the jurisdiction, had to pay the jurisdiction taxes owed and penalties, and from a business perspective, they are trying to pass that ongoing tax onto their customers.  It's very common for leasing companies to do this.

    I know that's not something you want to hear/read, but it's a possibility that's what is happening and the person you spoke with on the phone doesn't understand it.

  • Investor · Danville, CA · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    I appreciate the input and to the extent that the funds are going toward taxes or other items specifically delineated in the lease, I agree with you. Unfortunately, that's not what's happening here.  In their letter introducing the administrative fee  why would they even call it an "administrative fee" if it was for taxes - they include a link to a web page that explains where the newly deducted funds are going.  59% of the money is going to "applicable costs and fees" including "processes of billing, refund processing, website maintenance ... and commission check processing."  Another 25% goes toward "the processing of vandalism cases and related external security costs and measures".  The final 16% goes to "costs associated with taxes" such as "forms" and also "purchase taxes, sales taxes, VAT taxes, etc.".  Included in this section is the processing of year-end 1099 forms.  If they are indeed trying to reimburse themselves for the payment of taxes, they need to document the tax they are incurring at a particular property and then seek the exact amount of the tax payment.  Issuing a blanket 9.75% "administrative fee" is far from that.  Essentially, they are seeking reimbursement of their overhead. 

  • Investor · Hacienda Heights, CA · Member since 2015 · 31 posts · 42 votes
    9y

    Thank you @Ed E. and @Darryn Begun for your input.  To add to Darryn's comments, I have another data point that indicates this is not tax related.  I called up another laundry service provider when I was shopping for a new provider, they mentioned they were surprised to hear about the huge rate increase by CSC and was curious to see how the customers react, seeing this as a potential business opportunity.  They had no plans to do this increase.  The fact that CSC's competitors don't plan to raise rates indicates this is not an industry-wide tax hike.  In my conversation with CSC sales manager, he also didn't mention anything about tax hikes, just pointed to the fact that they have the right to do so and they need to raise rates to maintain customer service level.

  • Denver, CO · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 1 vote
    9y

    Mike, Ivan, et. al.

    We are interested in fighting this fee, and believe they have breached our contract. Please keep me advised as to your efforts ... and let me know how to receive updates, etc. Thanks

  • Novato, CA · Member since 2017 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    9y

    There is no such thing as Occupational fees. There are occupational taxes, occupational license fees, but no where in the dictionary or online can you find a listing for occupational fees. They can't arbitrarily add a tax, and to be notified after the fact is unconscionable.

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.