So you Wanna be a Landlord?

So you Wanna be a Landlord?

Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes

Hi there BP!

the following is something I feel needs to be written to kind of get a lot of things on the table.  First off, a couple of disclosures:  

1) I am NOT a millionaire in real estate.  I'm just a hard-working dude with a small-to-midsize-ish portfolio that has had a lot of experience around the business, and wanted to share.  That being said, it is growing.  

2) Some of the things you might read here are a) not PC b) might offend you and c) might cause you to take a 2nd look at what you are doing.  I also have a bit of a potty-mouth.  You've been warned.  

3) I work full-time at a real estate investment firm, am NOT a licensed realtor, don't really care to be one, and spend a lot of time dealing with unreasonable people.  I also have very limited tolerance for "sweating the small s**t"

4) your activities here on BP, as well as your REI are completely voluntary. That includes reading this post... ;)

Now that we have that out of the way, I can tell you that I actually really, really enjoy the landlording business, but it took me some time to get there.  Its been up/down/sideways and whatever else you can think of, but at this point, while I have not reached Zen, I'm getting there.  Why am I writing this?  Easy - this place helped me a lot, and I'm giving back.  Its been a god-awful couple months for me personally full of heartache and loss, and I need some positive vibrations in my life.  

First off - Landlording, if done incorrectly, or cheaply, or any one of 354,622 ways that it can be done wrong, is going to be a gigantic pain in your ***.  It will also be a pain in the *** to your family, your dog/cat/weasel/horse, your spouse, your co-workers, and your wallet, as well as possibly contributing to my early onset case of male pattern baldness.  Lesson learned.  

However, with some thought, some know how, some support from your friends on BP and the use of more than 15% of your brain, its a lovely way to make a living.  

In a nutshell, you are deciding to get in business for yourself, using some basic leverage, and attempting to better your life.  Mazel-Tov!  That being said, where people tend to run into trouble (myself included) is when their business plan wouldn't hold up to a wet slap from a tired 5 year old.  

Your rentals are a PRODUCT that you introduce to a MARKET and need to SELL them.  This sounds simple but its not.  We all bring some kind of unique skill to this business, and YOU have to decide what YOURS is.  I was fortunate enough to learn a LOT about construction, and then TAUGHT myself a lot about finance, and I still screw it up sometimes.  Such is life.  

The bricks, sticks, wires, pipes and machines WILL BREAK.  If you take the usual moronic approach of buying the cheapest mass-produced imported garbage from your local Big Box, and then slapping it together, and think it will last, then you WILL spend a lot of nights/weekends fixing that same garbage.  Your tenants WILL tear stuff up.  They WILL try every last stupid trick in the book to get one over on you, pay late, get something for nothing.  Plan on it, or you will lose sleep.  

If you want to own something that will pay you for 20-30 years, act like it.  The professionals in this business know maintenance about as well as Warren Buffet makes money, or Jenna Jameson does what she does........listen - you're going to have problems as a landlord.  Just decide what kind of problems you want to have, and take it from there!

In other words, your mindset on this starting out will greatly affect how it goes for you.  If you think you can buy a jalopy car and get into trucking....well....give it a try and let me know how it goes.  

THE BASICS:

 - Sales - this is easy.  Think about it - all of humanity wants a nice place to live.  This was the reason we first got into caves from trees, made fire, wore skins of animals, and fought wars.  How is this practical?  Use what knowledge you have to provide a better product at a price that is competitive, in a market where demand out-strips supply.  Make sense?  If you live in a small town like where I grew up, and every rental is a beige, roach-infested glory hole, then make yours nicer!  Duh.  If you live in a city like where I do now, make your rental look better than the 35,000 other basic boxes run by DGAF staff, and guess what?  You will have basically zero vacancy and TONS of qualified applicants!  Say Whaaaaaat?  

An ancillary benefit of this is that when you have a nicer product than the competition, your customers (tenants..catching on yet?) will COMPETE for your product and once they have it will WANT to stay, and take care of it.  It also makes increasing the rent stupidly easy.  Hell, I've been offered rent increases by tenants!

 - Maintenance - Dude. $h*t breaks.  Deal with it.  The general rule of thumb is this - if it might break, its going to break.  The logical second step to this is that when $h*t breaks, its going to annoy you.  Especially if you aren't planning on it.  Here in the desert, AC units only break at 8pm on Friday when I'm out to eat with the wonderful woman I am lucky to share my life with, and its 110 degrees.  While I don't have personal experience, I'd guess the same goes for heaters in cold places when its 30 below.  Now, call me crazy, but I would rather spend a little more money, in a predictable and responsible manner, than have stupid maintenance calls.  On the rare occasion when I find myself in one of those blue or orange hellscapes known as "Big Box Stores" and I see some newbie trying to fix a drain with cheap imported goods made with child labor, my soul dies a little inside.  Get to know your professional suppliers with higher-quality, preferably DOMESTICALLY MADE goods, and know that yes, you are going to spend a little more, and you are going to have less $h*t break.  Planned expenses are like anything else - better the devil you know than the devil you don't.  

 - Property Management - Ok, in case you haven't gotten the memo, it is 2017, and we landed MEN on the MOON before I was born.  If you are still waiting for checks in the mail.....well, good luck.  I've traveled a LOT of this country, and a parts of many others, and if a dude in rural Guatemala has a smart phone, then you have no excuse for not running your business with technology, leveraging it to your advantage, and taking yourself out of the equation as a barrier.  Collect rent online or not at all, use some kind of background/credit service, require auto-pay, and hey, guess what?  If you truly have a nice spot to live, and people want to live there (remember the sales thing?), no one will give a rat's hindquarter about doing any of those things, and you can just go relax!  How cool is that?  Another nice benefit of this is that if your tenants feel like they are getting a good deal, and you haven't made the mistake of renting to a pile of muppets, they are far less likely (but not immune to) pulling moves.  When they do pull a move (not IF, WHEN), there is 1 rule for it - no mercy.  Well, another rule is that judges tend to like people who are really organized.  So 2 rules.  

 - Location - this one is big.  As in a mission critical item.  I personally dislike the following: cold climates, annoyingly tenant-friendly laws, long eviction periods, onerous city governments, shrinking populations, and generally anything over a 20 minute drive from my house.  Yeah, I get it, you are different, and your life is a beautiful and unique snowflake.  (actually, news flash - its not, but thats another post).  So, this one is up to you, there is enough info on this forum to keep a meth-head busy for 9 weeks on that topic.  So have a couple espressos and go nuts.  However, this part will affect your sales.  

- Money - you will need it. I personally think anyone who doesn't put down 10% or more is gambling, but you probably think I'm an idiot, doubly so if you are still reading this...Jeez. Practically speaking, here is how that goes: cash buyers will kick your a$$ on most deals, so be prepared, properties cash-flow better with 25% down, either spend it upfront in repairs/upgrades (good ones, not crap) or be prepared to bleed it out on maintenance, and (this one is important) if your property maintenance schedule/budget (you don't have one? you're an idiot!!) would put a 7 year old full of skittles to sleep, then you're doing it right. Learn IRR, learn CoC, learn what CapEx and R&M budgets are. Remember, you're a professional, so act like it. Do you think the rich guys got there by just guessing? If you do think that, well, I've got some arizona oceanfront I'll sell you for one hell of a bargain. PM for details.

 - Tenants - they are your customers.  Keep them happy, be firm but fair, and don't be a patsy or they will flat run your *** over.   Allow dogs and cats if you want, but charge lots of money for them, and never forget that YOU are in charge.  People tend to want to do business with people they like.  Nothing gets someone's attention like smacking them in the wallet.  Implement what I call a "Zero Bull$h*t Tolerance", and tell people that upfront in the nicest way possible.  If you get a bad vibe, run like hell.  Responsible pet owners will gladly pay much more money for a nice place to live.  Credit Scores aren't everything, but higher FICO's mean they have more to lose.  Get better at negotiation.  Work out more, I got a lot less flak from everyone once I hit 190lbs of piss and vinegar.  Lets me be nicer too!  

 - Bankers - Mark Twain said it best - they are the type that will loan you an umbrella and ask for it back the second it starts to rain.  Plan accordingly.  They never get things done on time, its always delayed, and always costs more than expected.  Don't get annoyed by it, adjust your expectations.  Yes, you need to have money, liquidity, good credit, and savings.  Why?  Because when a lot of amateurs got into this game without a plan, they about ended the world as we know it.  (Ok fine, some cocaine-addled lunatic smart guys and a mountain of derivative debt helped, but still).  Again, remember the professional thing?  You want to be treated like an adult?  Me too, but keep in mind that money is a powerful tool, and no one wants to hand a 5 year old something that he can hurt himself with.....sodas obviously notwithstanding.  

Anyway, I'll shut up for now, as the espresso is wearing off, and life beckons.  Comments, good and bad are welcome, but please don't ask me silly micro-managed questions, keeping the 30,000 foot view of this game is critical, and a skill that needs to be cultivated. 

Happy Landlording!

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Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
9y

Great stuff! The only thing I would add is the tendency for a newbie to think stuff like, "Yeah, it sounds like a PITA, and it may be, but no problem, I'll just hire contractors and a property manager and they will take care of everything for me. Problem solved."

I cringe every time I hear this sentiment, because I suspect that is a newbie that's fixin' to get taken to the cleaners trying to outsource jobs they have no experience or knowledge in. Aside from the financial reality that a PM will consume over 1/3 of your cash flow (~15% all in with all fees included of GROSS rents, which is likely >30% of NET),  managing a bad PM is MORE work than managing a good tenant yourself ... a vast majority of PMs are bad (PMs and newbies will argue otherwise, but this has been my experience) ... if you buy quality properties in quality locations (see Sales part in OP) and then screen your tenants, then most tenants are good.

I would also hope that this post would dispel the common false belief that REI, at least as far as owning individual properties, is or even should be a passive investment ... it is not, it is starting and running a business just like any other. If you build and grow your systems properly, then it CAN become more passive over time, but not completely passive and certainly not passive at all as a newbie starting out. I'd argue that Jenna Jameson's business is more passive than a newbie starting out in REI, and more profitable and she may get f#%ed less than a newbie landlord too :)

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  • Rental Property Investor · Red Bank, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    I love being a landlord- gotta say, knee deep in the sometime frustrations of renovations and I still get a kick out of the ooo's and ahh's when I show a unit.

    I show plenty of love to my in town hardware store and I spend a lot at my big box stores as well. I would find it extraordinarily foolish on my part to rule one or the other out.

    Going cheap is not always a bad thing. I use the least expensive laminate floors and people rave. I get inexpensive local cabinets that are better built than most. I go big where big matters- granite counter-top, central a/c. I find the best thing is to spend time with others who have walked the road before me.

    Bottom line is you can have the best materials in the world but if you have a jackass installing them, they may as well be the worst.

    My units sell themselves- I'm not a salesman, I am a landlord. I price my units well and I refuse to lose a months rent because I wanted an extra $50-$75.... math doesn't work on a $1700 unit. I never try and sell a person on my apartments, the last thing I want to do is push someone into being my tenant... a salesman pushes a customer, which also means-

    My tenants are not my customers. My tenants are my tenants. There is an entire section of my state's judiciary which is dedicated to the relationship between me and my tenants. They won't even do this for someone buying a house, or a muckety-muck buying a yacht. They all get thrown into the very same civil division and fight it out. Not me and my tenants- I owe them a higher duty of care then Mercedes owes Biff and Buffy. But believe me- I have seen a lot of landlords get in trouble when they treat their tenants like customers (i.e. self-help)

    When I sign a lease I take on a whole host of very serious responsibilities and I enter into a professional relationship with someone about the most personal of things- their home. Likewise, they will be residing and using one of my most valuable assets. I do not take this lightly- I cannot equate it to selling them an ice-cream cone, a prime-rib or a vacuum cleaner. Therefore they will always be my tenant or the resident of my building. I believe this makes me the best landlord they will ever have.

    I do enjoy reading others experiences, insights and opinions. Thanks for sharing yours.

  • Real Estate Agent · West Chester, PA · Member since 2017 · 83 posts · 42 votes
    9y

    @Darwin Crawford keep that espresso machine on and rolling! Great, succinct, and entertaining read with valuable info!

  • Investor · Orange County, CA · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    Great stuff! The only thing I would add is the tendency for a newbie to think stuff like, "Yeah, it sounds like a PITA, and it may be, but no problem, I'll just hire contractors and a property manager and they will take care of everything for me. Problem solved."

    I cringe every time I hear this sentiment, because I suspect that is a newbie that's fixin' to get taken to the cleaners trying to outsource jobs they have no experience or knowledge in. Aside from the financial reality that a PM will consume over 1/3 of your cash flow (~15% all in with all fees included of GROSS rents, which is likely >30% of NET),  managing a bad PM is MORE work than managing a good tenant yourself ... a vast majority of PMs are bad (PMs and newbies will argue otherwise, but this has been my experience) ... if you buy quality properties in quality locations (see Sales part in OP) and then screen your tenants, then most tenants are good.

    I would also hope that this post would dispel the common false belief that REI, at least as far as owning individual properties, is or even should be a passive investment ... it is not, it is starting and running a business just like any other. If you build and grow your systems properly, then it CAN become more passive over time, but not completely passive and certainly not passive at all as a newbie starting out. I'd argue that Jenna Jameson's business is more passive than a newbie starting out in REI, and more profitable and she may get f#%ed less than a newbie landlord too :)

  • Lender · Nashville, TN · Member since 2017 · 205 posts · 107 votes
    9y

    @Darwin Crawford very entertaining read-thanks for putting it out there with 100% honesty.  In your advice, what is the best strategy for a newbie in buy and holds? Wait it out and try to save up enough for down payment + reserves? Partnerships?

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    9y

    @Patrick M. - thank you for the input, I really like hearing other people's views.  One of the guys at my office is from New Jersey, and used to do leasing there - completely different sport than here in AZ, for SURE.  

    And I think you hit the nail on the head - your units sell themselves, but YOU made that happen!  Nicely done.  

    @Noah Scott - appreciate it! As annoyed as my better half was, I think the espresso machine in the kitchen might be the best ROI to date.....

    @David Faulkner - well done on bringing that up.  I spent 12 years in the trades (construction) and worked briefly on a TV show behind the scenes, and I literally have to leave the room when that crap comes on TV.  A newbie landlord with a "budget" to renovate a rental brings a mental image of "Frogger" (yes, dating myself here), and will probably get their wallet cornholed unless they have experience.  I could write a whole separate book on "The Interstellar Vortex of Bull$h** known as Construction", or possibly ask Ms. Jameson to show the audience what your wallet will look like during the "renovation"...as you said, she's certainly got the resume!

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    9y

    @Jamie Jones - as a newcomer, you have two choices, and I think some of it is financial.  Do you have cash to get started?  Do you have no cash to get started?  That binary choice will determine a lot.  If you have cash, then educate yourself, get some feedback on the deal(s) you are looking at, and go for it.  If you don't have cash, do the same thing.  

    This stuff isn't exactly rocket science, I think its more of a personal choice as to if you are cut out for the business.  Does someone mistreating your stuff make you crabby?  If so, its gonna be a long, rough road for you.  Do you know construction?  Repair?  How to underwrite?  If not, learn.  Building and fixing property is not a game for muppets.  

  • Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 8 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    I absolutely love this! You're a dude I can get behind. I hope to learn more from your input in the future!

  • Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 8 posts · 3 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Thomas S.:

    Some I agree with some I don't no surprise. Unfortunately you lost me on

    "properties cash-flow better with 25% down"

    Fact is a property that can not cash flow with a theoretical 100% financing can and will never have true positive cash flow. The opportunity value of equity reduces true cash flow by creating artificial cash flow. This is the most basic money 101. Investors that do not grasp that concept are not in the game.

    The 25% thing raised my eyebrow as well. I've mostly seen people talk about planning for a 20% down payment or trying for a FHA loan for 3.5%. Could you elaborate a little more on the true and artificial cash flow point you made? This is all still very novel for me. Thank you in advance!

  • Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 8 posts · 3 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Darwin Crawford:

    @Jeff G. - thank you for the kind words!  It's my hope at some point to write more articles for the new crew, hopefully they can learn and profit from all our mistakes!

     Yes, please do!

  • Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 8 posts · 3 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Ashley Cote:

    Pretty good read for a newbie like me. Informative and entertaining. I'd read your book if you wrote one. lol

     Same! Felt that way throughout the entire post lol

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    9y

    @LaTiya L. Jones - thank you for the kind words, and actually reading all that mess!  It's much appreciated.  The "25% thing" that I am referring to is this: properties cash-flow BETTER with 25% down.  

    @Thomas S. nailed it on the head that a property must theoretically cash-flow at 100% financing or you are losing money.  I agree with him.  The dangerous part is that theory doesn't always match the real world, and human beings are inherently flawed.  I am no exception.    

    I walked out of a college finance class after asking my professor if he was rich, and he said "no".  Why would I want to learn finance from some broke dude?  Lame.  I never went back.  

    What I am advocating, at least for the newbie crowd, is that the down payment on a rental provides a little margin of safety.  Sure, on paper, it works better if you keep your cash in the bank and finance the whole thing, but I have yet to find a way to do that.  I'm sure they're out there, somewhere.  But that is a risky game.  Landlording shouldn't be gambling.  

    You can absolutely buy rentals with 3.5% down FHA loans, and you probably should. However, if you don't have the discipline to save up down payments, or otherwise source chunks of cash for deals, you are going to get your butt in a sling at some point down the road. I'd bet my rental portfolio on it.

  • Investor · TX · Member since 2015 · 393 posts · 290 votes
    9y

    `Great post.  I found myself going through your points and going, "yep, yep, yep, I need to work on this one, yep, yep." 

  • Streetsboro, OH · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 2 votes
    9y
    Great post! Very informative for a newby such as myself. Thanks for taking the time to write it!
  • Rental Property Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2017 · 72 posts · 35 votes
    9y
    Good stuff. I think many of use need to hear it as it is more than we realize and not in a sugar coated way. I liked the brutal honesty of the post. Now how bout that ocean front in Zona 🤣
  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    8y

    @Roger S. - appreciate the read!  I hope it helped, definitely made a few slip-ups as a landlord.  

    @Nick Castrilla - thank you for reading it!  I've heard great things about the Ohio market, its apparently very good for cash-flow.  

    @Sean Lunny - the AZ oceanfront is a smoking deal, let me tell you, but I'll need a bag of cash for the downpayment.....appreciate you reading, and yes, I got the sugar coated version when I started, and that wore off pretty damn fast.  

  • Real Estate Agent · Teaneck, NJ · Member since 2017 · 4 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    Good information! thank for sharing...

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    8y

    @Mark Walker - thanks for reading!  I find myself coming back to this post sometimes when my tenants give me headaches.  Gotta remember to take my own advise sometimes.  

    Also  - when did the word police here at BP decide that we have to star out the word "a s s"?  Did I miss something in the rules?  If so, sorry I'm not sorry....

  • Property Manager · New York, NY · Member since 2016 · 388 posts · 90 votes
    8y
    Wow! Thank you!
  • Property Manager · New York, NY · Member since 2016 · 388 posts · 90 votes
    8y
    One of the best post I ever read!
  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    8y

    @Liz C. - thank you, I appreciate you reading it, and hope it helps somewhere along your journey. 

  • Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 3 posts · 1 vote
    8y

    @Darwin Crawford - I'd like to echo pretty much everyone here.  Thank you for putting your experiences down for us newbies.  I'm literally at the research stage trying to figure out what I'm going to do and how to do it. 

    Any chance you'd be willing to share about your commercial properties? As nice as SFR is (and I know this is where I'll need to start), I really want to get to the point where I own commercial properties.

    Thank you again!

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    8y

    @Eric Johnston - sorry, been on a little hiatus from here while renovating.....and thank you for reading the post, I'm glad it helped out.  

    Re: commercial property - man, this is a different beast!   I originally wanted apartments, but after getting my butt kicked on every deal (lots of HNW individuals want them for tax reasons) I went bottom-feeding on LoopNet dot com and got lucky.  Took 9 months to find/fund/close.  Lost some hair off my head for sure.  I asked a lot of probably stupid questions, bought more than a few lunches for guys who are waaaay richer than I am in exchange for advice, and at the end of the day, kinda just said "F**k it, I'm jumping in"  I trust my own math. 

    Lending on them is much more dependent on building financials, and your resume. Yes, you still need to be able to get bank loans, but its more about DSCR, LTC and LTV ratios.

    Commercial is different as well due to the swings in the market, and the large investors that will take silly low returns.  Like 5.5 Caps here in Scottsdale for class B/C stuff.  Also - lots of people say that commercial/office is doomed, and going the way of the shopping mall (good riddance to those BTW), so you need to be even pickier on where/what you buy.  Is the business or potential business tenant going to get wiped out by Amazon?  What happens in the next downturn?  Do they walk on the lease and use their spare bedroom for an office now?  You gotta live somewhere, but if Apple could get started in a garage, then there really is no reason for an office.  

    Costs multiply, appraisals are $3500+, the city gets more involved, parking becomes a thing, licensing, etc, etc.  Much more than just carpet/paint/rent.  Kinda forces you to grow up a little and be slightly more adult-like.  Leases are longer, more complex, CAM becomes a thing in your life, etc, etc.  Don't even get me started on fire suppression systems.  Jesus Pete they cost a fortune.  

    Get your feet wet before you buy one.  Bottom line.  Or go work for a commercial management company for 12 months.  

  • Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 3 posts · 1 vote
    8y

    @Darwin Crawford - I just appreciate your willingness to share!  I would be so lost without all of y'all.

    I actually work for a bank here in Texas, and we have a fairly successful real estate lending group which unfortunately I'm not a part of yet.  The goal is to squeak my way in there somehow to get familiar. 

    Those are all points that I really didn't think of.  In my opinion, I really hope that they don't get eclipsed by Amazon.  I don't think that would be good for everyone. 

    Definitely going to get my feet wet first.  Plan is to house hack a small multifamily for experience and go from there.  Would you have any advice on house hacking by any chance?  Or any opinions?

    Thank you so much for your time and sharing again.

  • Rental Property Investor · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2016 · 296 posts · 243 votes
    8y

    @Eric Johnston - happy to share, its what this place is for.  Sorry, I got zilch on house-hacking.   I rent my primary residence and own rentals.  The math out west is favorable to that.  I'll probably get flamed by someone for saying a primary is a stupid first investment, but whatever.  

    If I lived in a cheaper, flyover-type market I'd feel differently.  But if I can make 10%+ on my portfolio and live for a gross 5-cap, I'll do it all day long.  

  • Reston, VA · Member since 2014 · 74 posts · 24 votes
    8y

    Loved the section on being firm and taking no s*it from tenants. Good read!

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