Need advice: evict tenant in Philadelphia

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Need advice: evict tenant in Philadelphia

Carlos N.
Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes

Hi All, 

New member here.  I have came across BP when googling about tenant eviction, will need your advice regarding eviction in Philadelphia. In short, I own a property since 2005 and have been using a real estate management company to rent it out. I have the 2-yr lease the current tenants since 2009, after that it is month to month. Few weeks ago, I decided to sell the property, and informed the management company to notify the tenant to move out by end of September. However, tenant stopped paying rent for the September.

I then emailed the management company to issue a "notice of quit" and notify the tenant to move out by end of September. Though the management not giving me a copy of the notice (I requested) nor the certified mail records, etc.  After 10 days, I told them I will file paperwork to court for eviction, and asked them to check the house, take pictures, refer me a real estate broker and have a contractor to give me a quotes what need to be fixed up and repair. They said they find me a potential buyer, and after tenant moved out we will check the house for you and take pictures though they never respond me about the broker referral etc.. 

In short, I have a feeling that the management company is playing the waiting game or the tenant(s) are with them just to buy time to find places or used up the money on the security deposit.  Now, I wonder what I should I do? 

1) Should I find an attorney or one from HAPCO? to start the eviction process? May need to start from the beginning since I don't think the real estate management even send a notice of quit to the tenant(s).

2) How does it work? Will the attorney contact the tenant directly or the real estate management company?  Anyone has experiences on using HAPCO services? will it be smooth and easy that the attorney will prepare the forms etc? and He/She will go to the court for me?

3)  Any legal responsibilities for the management company as they are not responsive and do that they should do?

Thanks in advance and much appreciates!

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Chris K.
Attorney · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
9y

@Carlos N.

1. I don't own any rentals in Philadelphia anymore. But many folks on BP recommend HAPCO for eviction proceedings. From what I understand, they are good at what they do. 

2. My understanding is that HAPCO handles everything at the magistrate level. I'm sure you can learn more after contacting them. 

3. In Pennsylvania, all property management companies will generally need a real-estate broker on record. The State Real Estate Commission is the governmental body that oversees these brokers. So depending on the situation, you may want to consider filing a complaint with them. You can also try to deal with them directly by yourself or through a lawyer. I can't comment on whether it'll be worth your time and money to do so in your situation. 

4. One last thought --- my understanding is that Philadelphia ordinance requires all landlords not residing within the city limits to have an agent. As a practical matter, my understanding is that this requires you to hire a property manager. You may want to check on that. 

If you are required to hire a manager, I would suggest looking on BP for recommendations. I know @Joe White handles property management in Philadelphia so he might be a good first contact. 

Disclaimer: While I’m an attorney licensed to practice in PA, I’m not your attorney. What I wrote above does not create an attorney/client relationship between us. I wrote the above for informational purposes. Do not rely on it as legal advice. Always consult with your attorney before you rely on the above information.

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  • Account Closed
    Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 140 posts · 37 votes
    9y

    Have you tried to contact tenants directly? And do you know your lease well. For example in our lease although it was month to month, was stated that in case you decide to not rent to the tenants any longer you have to give them 60 days notice .

    You really need to speak with them directly, maybe they want to use last month rent, that you hold.

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Rental Property Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2014 · 240 posts · 94 votes
    9y

    @Carlos N. great question. Have you confirmed that your management company has all of the proper licenses with the city and completed a rental suitability form for each tenant? It is critical to have this if you want to evict someone in Philadelphia.

    1Reply
  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    @Lana Lee

    Thanks Lana for quick respond,

    I havent tried to contact the tenants directly since I am using the services from the real estate management. yes, I should give them 60 days notice. Though, I asked the management company to notify tenant around end of August that I want them to move out by end of Sept. This may be a mistake but then they stopped paying rent for Sept which I have the rights to issue a notice of quit where they have tens days to leave the property.  

    I understand the fact that tenants may want to use the last or two months deposits for the rent; however, the tenants not the management company didn't give me any notice about that neither oral nor written notice. 

    0Reply
  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed I don't think they are so nice or professional that help me getting these; though I got the rental licenses renew every year. As for the rental suitability form, I am not 100% sure if I need to get that as on the phila.gov website mentioned only for the "New" tenant(s)?  I have rent the property to the tenant(s) since 2009; not so sure if this is new regulations?!

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 140 posts · 37 votes
    9y

    We were in the similar situation, but we did comunicates directly. We took a chance and let them use both security deposit and last month rent for that 60 days. We knew they didn't have money 3 month worth to move into new place . And really even if we took them to court , couldn't get nothing from them. That worked for us. I understand your frustration about paying money to PM, who doesn't even do that they supposed to .

    0Reply
  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed 

    Thanks for your advice once again.  I am absolutely fine with them using the security deposits for the rent; though they should give me or the PM either oral / written notice. May be they don't even care as they will just take advantage of buying time and knew that it will take some times to file paperwork to court and stuff? It's a norm over the city as the living standard and income is low... My tenant(s) are so far so good.. only missed water bills about 5-10 times over the years.

    I am not asking for anything but just get back the property by taking them to court. It is always not a good and wise choice by taking them to court.  After experiencing the bad side of PM in Philly, I don't think I wanna deal with another one. I am not sure if I should go directly to tenant(s) as the PM still representing me.. may be I should just wait for another few days.. and apparently, the PM said tenant(s) claim will return the keys today... will see or else I should just prepare the paperwork. 

    In fact, I wanna take the PM to court more than the tenant(s).  I suspect that they are renting my property to multiple "tenant(s)" instead. When the previous "tenant" move out before 2009, there were multiple mattresses, even dog cages on each bedrooms/floors.  I m quite sure they might do the same thing again as it is not the first time. As a landlord, one important thing to us is to have the staple income, so I just let it go last time.  

    Oh well... 

    1Reply
  • Account Closed
    Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 140 posts · 37 votes
    9y

    If you have friends or relatives in Philadelphia maybe you could ask them to drive by the property and see if the tenants are in process of moving out. If they promised to surrender keys today, they should be loading their stuff now.  And please PM me the name of your property management company. We need to know our " heroes" in order to avoid to be " rescued " by them in the future .

    0Reply
  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed I wish I have friends/relatives there but I guess I will wait for 1 more day. As for the PM, I will send the info to you later on

    0Reply
  • Chris K.
    Attorney · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Carlos N.

    1. I don't own any rentals in Philadelphia anymore. But many folks on BP recommend HAPCO for eviction proceedings. From what I understand, they are good at what they do. 

    2. My understanding is that HAPCO handles everything at the magistrate level. I'm sure you can learn more after contacting them. 

    3. In Pennsylvania, all property management companies will generally need a real-estate broker on record. The State Real Estate Commission is the governmental body that oversees these brokers. So depending on the situation, you may want to consider filing a complaint with them. You can also try to deal with them directly by yourself or through a lawyer. I can't comment on whether it'll be worth your time and money to do so in your situation. 

    4. One last thought --- my understanding is that Philadelphia ordinance requires all landlords not residing within the city limits to have an agent. As a practical matter, my understanding is that this requires you to hire a property manager. You may want to check on that. 

    If you are required to hire a manager, I would suggest looking on BP for recommendations. I know @Joe White handles property management in Philadelphia so he might be a good first contact. 

    Disclaimer: While I’m an attorney licensed to practice in PA, I’m not your attorney. What I wrote above does not create an attorney/client relationship between us. I wrote the above for informational purposes. Do not rely on it as legal advice. Always consult with your attorney before you rely on the above information.

    1Reply
  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    @Chris K. Much appreciates for your professional valuable comments

    1) Lesson learned, I probably will get a better property or commercial one if I am going to invest in Philly again. 

    2) I would contact HAPCO and see what they can offer later on. Thanks for the detail info

    3) Thanks for the info about the commission... would check it out.

    4) I have an impression that the Real Estate Management company is acting as a Property Manager as they collect certain % of the rent. and they cut and mail me the check after the fees

    5) thanks for the PM info again! 

    0Reply
  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    9y

    If you are a HAPCO member ($125 a year I believe), then you can make use of the HAPCO eviction attorney; if not a member you can ask at HAPCO who they are using. I last used the HAPCO eviction attorney more than ten years ago, and since then they have changed who it is.

    The regulation on certificate of rental suitability came into effect a number of years ago; you should be able to look up at the Phila.gov when it was first in effect, but I believe it pre-dated 2009.

    Your PM contract probably requires you to allow the PM to list that property for sale while you are with them; so you should look at that - I think it will obligate you to the PM one way or the other.

    Philadelphia does require non-resident landlords to have a "registered agent" who either resides within the city limits or operates a  business within the city limits; this person does not have to be a licensed real estate agent, could be a friend or relative. I recall it has to do with serving legal notice - if you have a legal action being taken against your rental, they serve notice to your registered agent (and a city employee will be able to do it - outside the city it can't be a city employee).

    1Reply
  • Joe White
    Property Manager · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 515 posts · 196 votes
    9y

    @Steve Babiak Steve is right. By "agent" it can be a cousin or a friend. I do not believe it has to be a paid individual. Or if you need to pay someone, it can be anyone. Not a licensed person.

    @Chris K. has done great legal work for me. And he is absolutely correct that property managers must be licensed in PA. And it must go through a real estate broker. Try the broker. If they are licensed the broker will not be happy as he is the one ultimately responsible.

    If they aren't licensed it seems you have some leverage there also.

    1Reply
  • Account Closed
    Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 140 posts · 37 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Carlos N.:

    @Chris K. Much appreciates for your professional valuable comments

    1) Lesson learned, I probably will get a better property or commercial one if I am going to invest in Philly again. 

    2) I would contact HAPCO and see what they can offer later on. Thanks for the detail info

    3) Thanks for the info about the commission... would check it out.

    4) I have an impression that the Real Estate Management company is acting as a Property Manager as they collect certain % of the rent. and they cut and mail me the check after the fees

    5) thanks for the PM info again! 

     Hello there, Carlos. Any updates ? Did you get your keys back?

    0Reply
  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    @Steve Babiak

    Thanks Steve for the info, I google and checked a website. Seems that I only require to get it if I have new tenants after Oct 1, 2011..

    The following is An excerpt from the August 2011 HAPCO Newsletter -- August 24, 2011

    "Property owners after October 1, 2011 will be required to obtain a “Certificate of Rental Suitability” at the beginning of every new tenancy. The certificate, which is available on line, must be obtained no more that 60 days prior to the commencement of the lease. The owner is also required to provide the new tenant with a copy of the "City of Philadelphia Partners for Good Housing Handbook". 

    . 

    0Reply
  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    @Joe White

    Thanks Joe, I think they are licensed.. as they have their office and licensed real estate broker under a big name franchise.

    0Reply
  • Joe White
    Property Manager · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 515 posts · 196 votes
    9y

    @Carlos N. That is good...I would reach out the broker. A broker, associated with an established office, won't likely be up for any nonsense. I've been an agent in Philadelphia for many years and I don't know any of the larger offices that would let an agent put them at risk. Remember, your relationship is with the broker. That's who is contracted with you.

    Good luck and I'm sorry this happened to you.

    1Reply
  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed

    I finally got some more legit updates.  

    1) PM company emailed me that the tenants returned the keys on 3 days ago(Oct 3rd), and they would take pics on the next day or weds. I was like thank god

    2) Then I asked for any updates on yesterday around 5pm becuz I asked/requested them many times to take pics, have a contractor to give me a quote to clean up or estimate the fix up, also have a Real estate broker ready to prepare paperwork to sell the property. Surprisingly, the PM company replied "the tenants still got something, they said will finish today!". I was like What?!!? I replied and questioned the PM why the tenants returned the keys on Oct 2 ,but they can go in on the Oct 3 and 4???

    3) Today, I decided to make a call to the Property Management company, and ask them what is going on?!?! Finally they sent me some photos and told me that there are lots of garbage in the property, and the tenants refused to give me their new address ( cuz I need to return the security deposit if any left after the clean up and any repairs needed plus the rent that they own previous and current month). I was relieved a bit once they sent me the pics.. at least they aren't(sort of) lying or being fishy. Anyway, the PM company should NOT let them come in the property anymore once keys are returned.  I am surprised that they let the tenant(s) got in.. that's not acceptable to me as a landlord.. the PM is not on my side protecting my property but on the tenant(s) side. Also never being responsive even they took pictures etc. Their communication ways making people felt really worried. I was told that the rest of the security deposit may not able to cover, I was like what exactly does that mean?? are the tenants gonna stay till end of this month?! then the PM goes, she meant to cover the cost of cleaning up etc.. I was like Jeez..

    4) I mentioned that I have them to get contractor to clean up/repair, get their broker, list/sell the property, etc. already bring them business, making me feel they don't even care about the biz or $.. really hard to believe!! Other things that the way PM does things are really lousy and not doing the right way.. such as tenant return the keys without any paperwork saying that they moved out or sign off that the landlord and tenant relationship ended, etc.. I am not sure if that is a norm or culture in philly, but I have proof if anything goes wrong like tenant(s) can claim that they never agree/accept to move out or they can simply pay rent again/ sure me for any damage because PM/I am not authorized to go in/clean up the property while the landlord and tenant relationship exists. 

    Oh well.. hope I can get everything sort out asap

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 140 posts · 37 votes
    9y

    Thank you for your update. When everyone was giving you an advice on eviction, I kinda knew the outcome. Make sure your PM company still sends a desposition of deposit letter to your rental property address. Even though they didn't provide an address, they can still sue you for security deposit. They then need to pick the letter up from the house and keep it in there office unopened. Unless of course the tenants arrange redirection of their mail at the post office .

    Your PM company probably knows what to do, but the way they've been treating you is just unacceptable.

    0Reply
  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed

    Thanks for reminder! One thing is that what I suspect was kind of right.. It seems that they rent out multiple "tenants" since many pictures showing 5-6 mattresses, and some mens (tenant(s) on the lease are women one was over 70s as I recalled, the other is like 4-50s I think), sneakers, shoes, kids toys and stuff. Quite obviously the PM did rent out the property to many people. or the tenants sublease or let others live in.

    I think that's how the PM made much more money since the rental income in philly is not as high in many big city unless in a nice neighborhood...  That also the reasons why they keep delaying and not responding in a timely manner, or no official paperwork and stuff. 

    0Reply
  • Joe White
    Property Manager · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 515 posts · 196 votes
    9y

    @Carlos N. is it wise to use them to sell your property? That's a huge investment and a huge responsibility.

    0Reply
  • Joe White
    Property Manager · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 515 posts · 196 votes
    9y

    Accidental post - sorry!

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 140 posts · 37 votes
    9y

    Wow, you had quite a motel  there!

    I guess we all need to make sure the properties are inspected ones or better yet twice a year. And put it in the contract with PM or find time to visit ourselves.

    0Reply
  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    9y

    @Joe White

    No worries

    Depends on how you think/look at things or your values.

    1) While many of us as an investors, or I should say as a landlord, most of landlord want is a stable agreed rental income monthly that generated from the properties. I got that through out the years; however, most of my friends or people(who invested in philly back in decade or earlier ago) I know got burnt, either tenants not own rent for 3-4 months, or had 3-5 tenants over the decade. and eventually they all sold out their properties at a lost becuz the market in Philly didn't appreciate as quick as others states. I consider myself as so call lucky in a way. Therefore, I am not complaining a lot as long as I got what I wanted.

    2) The other way to look at this PM is that they find ways to make more money which is smart where they leverage their risks of being sued or compliant etc. Of course, this is not what I suggest or do if I were them. It won't last long for their business. There are always loophole in the real estate market... I am not gonna go deep into the dark side of it since many of them are exposed in 2008 crisis or many of us had already experience so many cases.  Since the PM claimed that there is a potential buyer, I will just take the chance/risk for few more days because I recalled one of people I know that the PM got him a buyer without applying mortgage, so closing is completed quickly. 

    3) I think properties are being listed in MLS mostly in Philly... so doesn't really matter which agent to use in a way since brokers can always make a deal among themselves whoever got a client buying the house and closed the deal. Of cuz getting a honest, legit or a broker who take care of you is always good, but not easy and 90% of the time is more of less they are all the same. I have seen so many real estate related companies are extremely lousy regardless of sales, the people who works in the companies, and bosses are all the same. you can only see $ on their eyes.

    4) I think this is also a reason we (as a "client" or "customer" of these PM or real estate company ) are always on the "loser" side or always being taken advantage. These companies always have an edge that we wont go complain as much or go for legal actions cuz it will just a lose for us as always. We will lose time, money, happiness and brain juice, etc if we go sue them or just to see how much money we can burn on both sides.

    I will see what I can do after I got my keys.. hopefully I can get this done and find a better place to invest

    1Reply
  • Steve Babiak
    Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    9y

    @Carlos N. - you send the security deposit accounting in an envelope to the last known address (your rental unit) in the event that no forwarding address has been given to you; if they have filed a change of address with the post office, and the postal system figures out that your envelope should be forwarded, then they will get it. But let's say that the change of address was ignored (postal system screw up) and so it is delivered to your rental - you take a picture of the envelope showing that it was postmarked on time, then you deliver it to post office saying they are no longer at that address and it should be forwarded. If envelope is returned to you as undeliverable, then you never open that envelope, you just put it into the tenant's file just in case a claim is ever made that you failed to give them the deposit accounting.

    1Reply
  • Jarrod Kohl
    Boston, MA · Member since 2017 · 209 posts · 126 votes
    9y

    I would make sure to find a good broker in Philly to sell it, not the bad management company that you were already using.

    Also if they did not give keys back until into Oct. and still have access, make sure that they are "charged" until the end of October.  You cannot turn the property over and be expected to re-rent it if it is not available before the end of the month.  You probably will not ever see that month of rent, but it should help with the documentation if needed for court.

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