Need advice: evict tenant in Philadelphia

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Need advice: evict tenant in Philadelphia

Carlos N.
Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes

Hi All, 

New member here.  I have came across BP when googling about tenant eviction, will need your advice regarding eviction in Philadelphia. In short, I own a property since 2005 and have been using a real estate management company to rent it out. I have the 2-yr lease the current tenants since 2009, after that it is month to month. Few weeks ago, I decided to sell the property, and informed the management company to notify the tenant to move out by end of September. However, tenant stopped paying rent for the September.

I then emailed the management company to issue a "notice of quit" and notify the tenant to move out by end of September. Though the management not giving me a copy of the notice (I requested) nor the certified mail records, etc.  After 10 days, I told them I will file paperwork to court for eviction, and asked them to check the house, take pictures, refer me a real estate broker and have a contractor to give me a quotes what need to be fixed up and repair. They said they find me a potential buyer, and after tenant moved out we will check the house for you and take pictures though they never respond me about the broker referral etc.. 

In short, I have a feeling that the management company is playing the waiting game or the tenant(s) are with them just to buy time to find places or used up the money on the security deposit.  Now, I wonder what I should I do? 

1) Should I find an attorney or one from HAPCO? to start the eviction process? May need to start from the beginning since I don't think the real estate management even send a notice of quit to the tenant(s).

2) How does it work? Will the attorney contact the tenant directly or the real estate management company?  Anyone has experiences on using HAPCO services? will it be smooth and easy that the attorney will prepare the forms etc? and He/She will go to the court for me?

3)  Any legal responsibilities for the management company as they are not responsive and do that they should do?

Thanks in advance and much appreciates!

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Chris K.
Attorney · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
9y

@Carlos N.

1. I don't own any rentals in Philadelphia anymore. But many folks on BP recommend HAPCO for eviction proceedings. From what I understand, they are good at what they do. 

2. My understanding is that HAPCO handles everything at the magistrate level. I'm sure you can learn more after contacting them. 

3. In Pennsylvania, all property management companies will generally need a real-estate broker on record. The State Real Estate Commission is the governmental body that oversees these brokers. So depending on the situation, you may want to consider filing a complaint with them. You can also try to deal with them directly by yourself or through a lawyer. I can't comment on whether it'll be worth your time and money to do so in your situation. 

4. One last thought --- my understanding is that Philadelphia ordinance requires all landlords not residing within the city limits to have an agent. As a practical matter, my understanding is that this requires you to hire a property manager. You may want to check on that. 

If you are required to hire a manager, I would suggest looking on BP for recommendations. I know @Joe White handles property management in Philadelphia so he might be a good first contact. 

Disclaimer: While I’m an attorney licensed to practice in PA, I’m not your attorney. What I wrote above does not create an attorney/client relationship between us. I wrote the above for informational purposes. Do not rely on it as legal advice. Always consult with your attorney before you rely on the above information.

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  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    @Account Closed  

    Yeah I think it is..  as for the inspection part.. Forgive to me to say that it is sort of useless in a way unless you go for legal action. the main question is what you gonna do even you see 6-7 people living inside? call police? complain to the PM or the management company? cancel the lease etc? it is all about how you want to handle it.. but again different people have different pov or values or even diff $ in their pocket.. I don't think it is a wise thing to go legal action if we don't have a lot of money. On the other side, there are always risk that the property would have much more risks when so many people inside. 

    To me is that I am sort of regret that I picked the wrong location such that I will sell this property asap.

    Other side topic:

    In fact, many people are renting their own houses or places for airbnb.. many places are only legal to do so if and only if you rent the property out for a month at least but not days. Airbnb also are going though the loophole... you wont see the actual address of the properties until the "landlord" let you know. To follow the legal rules, you wont get monthly rental clients easily , so what you gonna do =)?

    0Reply
  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    @Steve Babiak

    Thanks for the reminder again. However, the situation is that I suspect the PM companies rented out for many people. the tenant(s) listed in the lease may or may not live in the property. I asked the PM to get them a letter to sign that they are moving out and no more landlord and tenant(s) relationship, etc.. the PM company seems that don't even know how to or they claimed that they never issue any paperwork as long as they got the keys back.. that's why I suspect that the PM/tenant(s) may be doing many under table or fishy stuff, such as use someone names on the lease and rent out to different people. all cash deals and no records in a way.

    The delivery of the security deposit accounting is not a matter in a way as long as I send it out say certified and registered mail with tracking, etc. Though I am not so sure how and when I should issue the security deposit accounting in a legal perspective.  I remember I need to issue the letter within 30 days they moved out. 

    What kind of supporting document I should have the PM or the real estate management company to issue ? 

    A letter with company letterhead stating the tenant(s) returned the keys on whatever date. Or a letter stating that they didn't receive the rent for September and October such that the month to month lease or relationship is terminated ?

    The only official document or poof I got is just an email reply "we get the key, we will go check tomorrow or Wednesday." from their email account (non a company domain but an yahoo email account they have been using).  I don't know or I don't think that is official enough in terms of a legal perspective that tenant(s) abandon or so called officially moved out when they return keys to property management company. Any opinions?

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  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    @Jarrod Kohl

    Thanks for the comment. Yes, I will probably not to use theirs.  I will see what I can find.

    I have already expected or under the impression that the tenant(s)/ PM company will used the 2 months security deposits as the "charged". I also recalled that landlord or the lease stated that tenants will be charged for late fees daily, etc. Without disrespect,  I personally don't think it is quite useful or worth it to fight for the late fees in my situation since they(tenant(s) / PM company) planned to utilize the security deposits.. I have been under the impression that this is kind of a norm or culture there due to the sharing I heard/read online or from real life cases through friends or people I know. 

    I will say I am lucky if I got back my property safe and quick without any big damages and without going to court

    .

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  • Jarrod Kohl
    Boston, MA · Member since 2017 · 209 posts · 126 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Carlos N.:

    @Jarrod Kohl

    Thanks for the comment. Yes, I will probably not to use theirs.  I will see what I can find.

    I have already expected or under the impression that the tenant(s)/ PM company will used the 2 months security deposits as the "charged". I also recalled that landlord or the lease stated that tenants will be charged for late fees daily, etc. Without disrespect,  I personally don't think it is quite useful or worth it to fight for the late fees in my situation since they(tenant(s) / PM company) planned to utilize the security deposits.. I have been under the impression that this is kind of a norm or culture there due to the sharing I heard/read online or from real life cases through friends or people I know. 

    I will say I am lucky if I got back my property safe and quick without any big damages and without going to court

    .

     Sorry not sure exactly what is going on with your property, sounds a little crazy! But I agree that going after late fees or the last month in court is not a worthwhile expense.  I was in-eloquently trying to say, you should make sure that you have to documentation so that if "they" do argue that you should give the deposit back there is a lot of evidence to show and hopefully keep it out of the courts.

    1Reply
  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    @Jarrod Kohl

    Thanks Jarrod, and much appreciates for your reminder... There are lots of things going on, and based on what I see the pics PM company sent me... I suspect they rent my property out to multiple people.  I am trying to get some documentation that the tenant(s) on the lease moved out as they return the keys but the management company is not really helping.. they claimed that they usually got the keys and basically case closed. No official statement or written documents were being signed by the tenant(s. I wonder if PM or anyone should have a written documentation that tenant(s) returned the keys and moved out on whatever date such that there is no more landlord-tenant relation between me and the tenants?? I want this document just in case if tenant(s) come back and sue me that they never move out.. and I would be in trouble if I got in and remove their properties and items... 

    the security deposit part, I am not so worried in a way.. as long as I have proof that I sent out the document and the tenants didnt give me new addresses when I requested... I should be ok if going to court

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  • Account Closed
    Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 140 posts · 37 votes
    8y

    We documented the tenants moving out day by giving them Property Surrender form to sign. Did you check if they closed thier utility accounts?

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  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    @Account Closed 

    I will ask the PM to give them the property surrender form to sign. I haven't checked but I expect the PM should do that since the tenants rent this property from this PM company?

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 140 posts · 37 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Carlos N.:

    @Account Closed 

    I will ask the PM to give them the property surrender form to sign. I haven't checked but I expect the PM should do that since the tenants rent this property from this PM company?

     My advice is to stop expecting anything from them. I understand, you pay them to do what is expected. But time and time again they prove to not being reliable. Simply call PGW and PECO. You are the owner after all and have a right to know. What does that mean " tenants going to come back" to the property after keys surrendering. One part of the Proproperty Surrender form states

    " Any personal belongings left behind will be discarded at the owner or PM discretion "

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  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    @Account Closed

    thanks for the advice again.. I deeply know and understand that I should not expect anything from them as so many fishy things going on.  I will also contact the Water and PGW, PECO as well. For the tenant(s) personal belongings is a tricky thing, I have no formal proof or documentation given by the PM company regarding the property surrender form... I would go ahead and throw away all the items do not belong to me once I got the written proof. 

    Based on what I see the pictures as clothes, sneakers, treadmill, mattresses are with in the property, I bet the PM company had the property surrender form signed.  I think they don't want give me as many as documentations since I guess they are afraid of me going for some legal actions against the tenant(s) [eviction], such that their/tenant(s) subleasing scheme to multiple people may be blown off and got themselves into trouble.

    Even chances is small, I am trying to push them to give me some documentations if anything goes wrong and protecting myself from being sued etc. I am quite prepared to hire an attorney or HAPCO to do eviction, may be the PM company is scared; such that they will get everything done asap.

    0Reply
  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    some updates:

    Got a call from PM company, I am amazed how they response when I told that I will come pick up the keys tomorrow. According to them , the tenants didn't respond for signing the surrender form. PM said they consider the tenants moved out as long as they dropped off the keys to their office. I was like really?! cant believe how they passed all the responsibilities to landlord or their customers.. I asked them what will the PM company do if the tenants come back and sue me or them taking away their belongings, etc. They said they can be my witnesses if the tenants sue or go to court for their belongings. I was like thank you so much lol. unbelievable!!

    They never issues any kinds of forms such as surrender property form not the abandon and tenant's rights notice (I googled many articles online). THey just said they will follow what I asked them to do if I want any written notices or letters etc. Really lousy and not knowing the rules/laws or property management or rental.. Surprise how they can be in this business for so long.

    I even have to make some forms for them... I guess I will have to wait for another 10 days just to throw the tenants belongings after posted a written abandon and tenant's right notice just in case.

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  • Lana Lee
    Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 364 posts · 109 votes
    8y

    Wow. I never heard of such a notice. So I have to waist 10 days and keep their stuff? What am I, a free storage locker? What if I want to do renovation right away and get the property ready for another tenants

    0Reply
  • Carlos N.
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Maspeth, NY · Member since 2017 · 19 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    @Lana Lee

    You can simply google something about Handling a Tenant's Abandoned Property.. you will find a lot of info. 

    If the tenant didn't pay rent for certain days and tenant has vacated the unit without communicating an intent to return, landlord has to post notice of the tenant’s rights regarding the property. Given a 10 day is a logic period for their response, without response it is consider as a abandoned property such that you can clean up their mess in a legal way.

    When your tenant(s) didn't inform you they are moving out or leaving officially, you are not supposed to touch their belongings.. if you did, they can sue you. or similar things like you will have to inform or get permission from your tenant to go to the property while your rental lease or landlord and tenant relationship is still active.  if any tenants play games with you, they can sue you for damage on their belongings. 

    Another more official way to do it is through the court where you can google the form:

    Request for Determination of Abandonment 

    I guess it is more or less the same thing attorney do this for landlord if there are tenants' abandon belongings

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  • Lana Lee
    Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 364 posts · 109 votes
    8y

     Thank you. Good to know .

    0Reply
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