Tenant Rights California: No Hot Water
Rental Property Investor · Temecula, CA · Member since 2016 · 151 posts · 63 votes
Tenant Rights California: No Hot Water
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@Jonathan Safa - I'm not an attorney, but from your post I don't believe the plumbing and gas facilities don't work - they work, the account just hasn't started yet and that's not your landlord's fault.
115 Replies
Originally posted by @Brie Schmidt:
Originally posted by @Matt K.:
@Brie Schmidt while I agree w/ you that if he stays he can't argue the unit is uninhabitable and he owes rent you can't fault him for not turning it on prior. It's been mentioned multiple times the lease/move in were same day.
I understand it was the same day. I don't know any utility service that can turn it on the same day. He saw the unit right? It didn't have power. He shouldn't have moved his stuff in knowing it had no utilities and then expected someone else to fix his problem.
We create our own problems and our own solutions.
Unless you are rewriting the law in CA a landlord is required to provide a habitable unit. Not should, not could, but will and if it isn't, unless the new tenant caused the problem, then it's the landlord's responsibility. We obviously both agree that it's impossible to get the service turned on same day, which shows negligence upon the landlord, not the new tenant. Now, let's assume the tenant notified the landlord that same day and told them they couldn't get service turned on in a reasonable time frame.... then that's when the discussion happens. He can ask landlord for reduced rent or he can move out and find a new place and get his security deposit back and remaining days.
It seems clear to me, no gas = not habitable as defined by CA law/codes/court cases that'd I've shown repeatedly . If he stays, then it's now been determined/demonstrated it's habitable and landlord is fulfilling their duty.
@Brie Schmidt how do you interpret this....
The Department of Buildings enforces the Chicago Building Code, which includes the Chicago Heat Ordinance. The Heat Ordinance mandates that during cold weather months landlords supply heat to rental units or to any unit where owners do not have individual control of the heat.
From September 15 through June 1, the temperature inside a rental residence is required to be at least 68 degrees from 8:30 AM to 10:30 PM, and at least 66 degrees from 10:30 PM to 8:30 AM.
Landlords face fines of up to $500 per day, per violation, for each day they do not supply adequate heat. The reason for lack of heat does not matter -- landlords must follow the law, and apartments must be heated.
If you are a renter and your landlord is not providing adequate heat or no heat at all, please contact 311 to file a complaint. The Department of Buildings will inspect your unit and we will take action against delinquent owners.Related Information:
Municipal Code 13-196-410 Residential Buildings (which can be accessed online).
@Ned J. I didn't say he's entitled to reduced rent, I said he's able to leave and not have to pay rent once he abandons the property because it's uninhabitable (as defined by CA law/code). If he stays he can ask for a discount, but he isn't entitled to one. He could also attempt to recover costs spent (like a hotel etc) due to no heat because of lack of action by the landlord (again since it's unreasonable to assume gas can be turned on same day).
But really, once he doesn't leave the argument of habitability goes in favor of the landlord. The landlord is required to rent a habitable unit, the tenant is required to notify landlord of issues preventing habitability, landlord is required to fix it within reasonable time frame. In this case, it's not reasonable for landlord to push a same day lease, but you could say that the 16 days is reasonable (due to the fires).- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
I doubt the landlord CHOSE to turn off the gas. Rather, they didn't turn it on after the last tenant moved out. That is completely reasonable.
I don't turn on the gas after a tenant leaves. That's the new tenant's responsibility.
As a landlord, I would see you as one of those unreasonable nightmare tenants, who I would love to legally get rid off the first opportunity I can see as this would likely not the last unreasonable issue you'd have.
- Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Matt K.:
@Brie Schmidt how do you interpret this....
The Department of Buildings enforces the Chicago Building Code, which includes the Chicago Heat Ordinance. The Heat Ordinance mandates that during cold weather months landlords supply heat to rental units or to any unit where owners do not have individual control of the heat.
From September 15 through June 1, the temperature inside a rental residence is required to be at least 68 degrees from 8:30 AM to 10:30 PM, and at least 66 degrees from 10:30 PM to 8:30 AM.
Landlords face fines of up to $500 per day, per violation, for each day they do not supply adequate heat. The reason for lack of heat does not matter -- landlords must follow the law, and apartments must be heated.
If you are a renter and your landlord is not providing adequate heat or no heat at all, please contact 311 to file a complaint. The Department of Buildings will inspect your unit and we will take action against delinquent owners.Related Information:
Municipal Code 13-196-410 Residential Buildings (which can be accessed online).
Landlords are required to supply heat. Not pay for it.
Every problem in this whole thread is as of the result of the tenants choices. He chose to wait till the last minute to move into a place knowing he was responsible for the utilities and having not turned them on.
He should not have moved in and then cried about the circumstances of his own doing. When you are a landlord you will understand
He can leave and should leave versus trying to blame others to fix his problem
Second City Real Estate4.821 Reviews - Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
@Matt K. , according to your profile, it looks as if you're only a beginner and want to become a real estate investor.
While you may have a lot of posts, you can throw out all of these laws and rules and theoretical knowledge with your posts, but without the experience to back them up, it's just your interpretation the way you want to see it......not the real world interpretation a judge, who daily deals with tenant issues, might have.
@Brie Schmidt I am a landlord and I operate within the rules laid out for the area my doors are. I also rent in CA and know what I am responsible for and what my landlord is responsible for.
I don't see how the landlord waiting till the last min to sign a lease when the landlord knew well before the utilities were off and not just needed to be switched over is the tenant's fault. But hey, at least we agree he shouldn't continue living there if he feels it's truly not habitable.Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
@Matt K. , according to your profile, it looks as if you're only a beginner and want to become a real estate investor.
While you may have a lot of posts, you can throw out all of these laws and rules and theoretical knowledge with your posts, but without the experience to back them up, it's just your interpretation the way you want to see it......not the real world interpretation a judge, who daily deals with tenant issues, might have.
What experience do I need in order to back up my posts... please let me know.
- Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Matt K.:
@Brie Schmidt I am a landlord and I operate within the rules laid out for the area my doors are. I also rent in CA and know what I am responsible for and what my landlord is responsible for.
I don't see how the landlord waiting till the last min to sign a lease when the landlord knew well before the utilities were off and not just needed to be switched over is the tenant's fault. But hey, at least we agree he shouldn't continue living there if he feels it's truly not habitable.I don't see how the tenant waiting till the last minute is the landlord's problem.
He had choices. He moved in knowing there were no utilities.
Second City Real Estate4.821 Reviews - Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Matt K.:
Originally posted by @Michaela G.:
@Matt K. , according to your profile, it looks as if you're only a beginner and want to become a real estate investor.
While you may have a lot of posts, you can throw out all of these laws and rules and theoretical knowledge with your posts, but without the experience to back them up, it's just your interpretation the way you want to see it......not the real world interpretation a judge, who daily deals with tenant issues, might have.
What experience do I need in order to back up my posts... please let me know.
Experience as a regular landlord (not just one or 2 units) and real estate investor. Someone who's been in the trenches and knows what's reasonable for a tenant to expect and what's not.
If you aren't an experienced investor you shouldn't be so adamant about knowing everything better than those of us who are out there doing it.
@Brie Schmidt simply put because of California Civil Code § 1941.1. If the landlord is going to do a same day lease then they need to have the utilities on prior. They can bill back the tenant if the switch is not complete at start of lease, but you and I both already agreed the same day time frame is unreasonable for new service.
and I've never argued he didn't have choices, you're 100% right. If he choses to stay it's habitable and is owed nothing, or if he is it'd of been discussed at the time of signing the lease and agreed upon upfront.- Rental Property Investor · Temecula, CA · Member since 2016 · 151 posts · 63 votes8y
@Michaela G. you invest in freaking Georgia. @Matt K. lives and invests in California. What the hell do you know about California investing? Go read the post from the attorney ^ up above. You could learn a thing or two. Go find someone else to pick on...
May I suggest another website that may better suit you? HGTV.com, maybe?
- Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes8y
@Jonathan Safa, if you were a regular here then you'd know that I've been going back and forth between California and Atlanta and have invested on both coasts. But I guess you newbies stick together.
Having a couple of airbnb properties, that are handled by a cleaner and a friend does not make you an experienced investor.
As experienced investor you'd know about this form I take it ?
https://www.socalgas.com/regulatory/tariffs/tm2/pd...
Or similar for local utilities....
- Earth · Member since 2017 · 297 posts · 187 votes8y
Usually, I'm an easy going landlord. I waive the tenant's service call most of the time.
However, if I have a tenant argue the 16 days with me, I would not renew the lease; I would follow the lease agreement very strict on everything, and like @Michaela G., try to get rid of this tenant ASAP. Nightmare tenant to me.
- Real Estate Agent · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2016 · 408 posts · 242 votes8y
Bruh, such benefit for health
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Usually, I'm an easy going landlord. I waive the tenant's service call most of the time.
However, if I have a tenant argue the 16 days with me, I would not renew the lease; I would follow the lease agreement very strict on everything, and like @Michaela G., try to get rid of this tenant ASAP. Nightmare tenant to me.
Curious though, wouldn't you normally get a lease signed prior to move in date rather than on it? Any landlord I've dealt with I've always had my stuff to them well before move in and it's been pretty seamless. Same w/ the properties I own, again pretty seamless and reasonable expectations set up front.
Now, if I was to disconnect the utilities, it'd of been mentioned up front during the walkthrough and I'd of probably said hey if you have problems getting them turned on (due to insert major local event like fires) let me know and we'll take care of it. However, this doesn't seem like very good planning on the landlord side to not have utilities turned on the day of move in when the lease is signed. I get that things happen... but that's something that should be agreed upon in writing before it comes up no?
I mean, if I was to say hey Mary, I've sent the check out but it's on my last day of the grace period you'd probably be more willing to work with me if I told you vs you calling me the next day and saying where's your check? I think we both could agree that it'd be entirely reasonable to not wait to the last min to send it or if that happened to communicate that. Why can't that same expectation be set w/ the utilities? If you going to wait to the very last second to lease to me, then you (the landlord) should take some reasonable action to ensure when I get the keys I can have the utilities in my name.Can try small claim court showing your medical bills because of frost bite, cold having no heat, weight loss having no kitchen to cook and fungus body. If you did not contact your LL and try to resolve it the problem is not him.
- Attorney · Orange County, CA · Member since 2017 · 242 posts · 99 votes8y
I really didn't think that I would have to chime in again. Meaning no offense to them, but to all of the out of state investors, your ideas of what is reasonable or customary or usual frankly have no application to California landlord-tenant law or the California Civil Code. The relevant Civil Code sections aren't even held to subjective reasonableness, but are generally applied on objective standards of tenantability and habitability. This is the law of California, like it or not.
- Real Estate Investor · Peabody, MA · Member since 2013 · 304 posts · 91 votes8yI have to think if you actually withhold rent for something that technically is supposed to be done by you before move in you are creating a lot of Ill will. Personally I would not want you to live there anymore if I owned it.
- Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes8y
Wow. This thread is a perfect example of the benefits for a landlord of using a month-to-month lease. "Here's your money, here's your 30 day notice, see you later."
To the people that say he should of done this before he moved in...do you realize the lease/move in were same day?
I think it should be obvious that no utilities can realisticly have a same day turn for reactivation, but can for switching acct names. Hence the entire reason a continuous service agreement exists with the utility companies. If a landlord doesn't want utilities on during a vancancy then they shouldn't be doing same day leases.
- Duarte, CA · Member since 2015 · 65 posts · 54 votes8y
I really loved reading through this thread. There were some great arguments advocating for both the tenant and landlord.
This is definitely one of those grey area situations, that was leaning towards Jonathan. He signed a leased thinking he could have the utilities set up instantly and the landlord believed he gave him a place in which utilities could be turned on whenever the tenant set them up. To both the LL and Jonathan I’m sure this has been a great learning experience.
For the rest of us, Dont sign a lease especially if you weren’t able to make sure everything is working properly. And don’t rent a place to a tenant unless you can prove everything is working properly.
- Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2016 · 140 posts · 119 votes8yThis is slightly off topic, as far as I don’t know who has what rights, BUT you mentioned you were considering withholding rent for the amount of days you don’t have gas. DO NOT DO THIS. EVER. Although you are not responsible for paying rent for an uninhabitable unit, the decision is not up to you. In almost all jurisdictions there is an actual, legal process to follow to withhold rent. You’d have to research the specifics for your jurisdiction, but simply saying, “I don’t have heat so I don’t think I should have to pay rent” sets you up for an expensive legal nightmare if the landlord decides to come after you for missing a rent payment, or worse pursue eviction (depending on how long the problem lasts and how much rent you didn’t pay..)
- Earth · Member since 2017 · 297 posts · 187 votes8y
From @Bryan Zuetel said, this is California Tenant Law, whether we like it or not, sounds like landlord may lose on this lawsuit.
If my tenant insist I give him live in the place free for those 16 days, since this is California Tenant Law, ok, I will suck it up and give my tenant free rent for those 16 days. However!
However, Like @Ned J. said, even my tenant "WIN" on the 16 days free rent, my tenant have "LOST" the relationship with me (the LANDLORD). I feel that my tenant has taken advantage on me by living at my place 16 days for free. I don't want this "Tenant" live in my place anymore. I will watch out for this "Tenant". I will be a very TOUGH landlord instead of an easy-going landlord anymore because I do not want the Tenant take anymore advantage from me in the future. I will get rid of this Tenant ASAP. This Tenant has given me a very bad impression already. I don't like this tenant anymore.
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