New here and first bout with awful tenants

New here and first bout with awful tenants

Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes

Hi everyone! I am new here and still relatively new to renting my house out, even though I've been doing it for about 7 years now. I'm only on my second set of tenants.

My question/situation is:

I rent my old house. The one I ill advisedly bought when I got married for the first time at the tender age of 20, which was remortgaged once and has not increased in value at all since (and the taxes have gone up). It's old (1920's), needs some work and is in a relatively crappy (but not dangerous) neighborhood.

Anyway, I (STUPIDLY) rented to two guys with less than great credit thinking that they would be working all the time and be able to take care of maintenance issues on their own (in the lease). I have since had them get water on the floor and bring down the living room ceiling (something they deny, despite the plumber telling this to me) - I haven't made them pay for it, instead I had another plumber there and am now moving on to a roofer because there's nothing wrong with the plumbing. This water thing has happened twice now in a month or so, despite heavy rains and melting snow. The second time was almost immediately after I told them the plumber said they caused the issue. Since I can't prove it was them, I'm not making them pair or repair and am working tirelessly to track down and resolve the "issue". Also, the first time the plumber showed, despite me communicating with them since morning that he'd be there and being assured they'd be home, the one was upstairs with his girlfriend and couldn't be bothered to answer the door. 

A bunch of issues occurred - storm window "fell off", front door was broken in "attempted burglary" (according to on of them, other one said that the pane and the lattice work between "just fell off"), gutter fell off the back. despite the lease stating that they must notify me immediately, they did not. Had to send my son there (an hour away) to change a lightbulb, even though I asked if they had changed it and to fix the ceiling fan that "just stopped working" because they broke the pull chain. They refused to pay for this too.

I then discovered they had been smoking and scattering cigarette butts all over the yard, despite the lease stating that it's a non-smoking property and there is no smoking on or in the leased premises. They were keeping their trash in bags on the back deck and my husband and I observed and took pictures of rib bones spilling from a torn bag (lease says they have to have containers). House is not cluttered and everything was put away, but there are food crumbs all over the floor and the steps are full of debris like they haven't been cleaned since they moved in. They also opened a box of linoleum tiles I had in the basement and used them to create a walkway in the basement.

So to shorten this a bit, i talked to a lawyer and sent them a 30 notice of breach of lease. I gave them the option to fix all the issues, included an estimate of replacing the front door with the cheapest available door and asked that they pay the half up front so we can get the door scheduled. They took responsibility for the door, even though one of them claimed a burglary. I spoke with a lawyer so I know I'm within my rights, but man am I anxious because they have come back at me with so much BS that I keep second guessing myself. 

I gave them the option to get another estimate, by putting their preferred contractor in touch with me within the 30 days. I won't let them just have the work done, because who's to say WHO they would hire and what I would end up with?? The estimate is very high, but the door is a custom size. Now he's claiming I should only make them replace the glass and the latticework (basically repair the door) and I am not opposed to this, IF it can be done and I told them that.

They're just making me feel unreasonable and I know that's what people do, they try to justify their horrible behavior, but it's really starting to make me sick (literally) with anxiety. I don't want to have all this confrontation and I don't want to have to watch everything I do (they are not demanding that they be home when I go there, even though the lease only requires 24 hours notice for me to enter, regardless of who is or is not there).

I guess I'm just looking for some commiseration and support :-) It'd be useful to hear what others have gone through, how they've handled and the outcome. Or if you have any tips or suggestions. I'm in Pennsylvania (not Philly) BTW.

Thanks everyone!!

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Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
8y

Your awful tenants are nothing compared to what bad tenants are actually like. Most of your problems unfortunately are created by two factors. First you are emotional, there is absolutely no place for emotions in this business. Not sure how you can fix that but it is your primary problem. Second you must learn to operate your business as a business. You do not ask, you tell your tenants what they are responsible for and you never negotiate.  Lay down the law and never compromise on your decisions and actions. Stop giving them choices and tell them how it is going to be. Stop letting them off th ehook for damages they caused. S**t does not just happen unless something is worn out.

I can not commiserate only give advice. Your best option is to either non renew their lease or allow to let them out of th elease if you feel you can get better tennats. Frankly I do not believe they are that bad you simply must learn how to manage tennats. That is your real problem.

P.S. never expect tennats to repair or take care of problem, th evast majority of tennats are 100% irresponsible.

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  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    Hi @Chris K. - good info thanks! I got the lease from EZ Landlord forms ("Guaranteed to comply with Pennsylvania law!!"). Hopefully that language is not an issue :-( 

    With the door, I definitely have texts where they say they will "take care of it". I spoke with them on the phone about it when we saw that it was damaged. One guy said "It just fell out [the windows and the woodwork between]". I had my son check and the wood was splintered (it wasn't like, dry rotted or anything). The other guy said "I'm not paying for that, Jason broke it" when I asked how, he got all flustered and said "someone tried to break in and he tried to fix it". Obviously a lie, because he wouldn't have said "he broke it" first. Also, I have asked them over text at least twice if they have a police report, no answer (you can see why I want to get them out of there, I shouldn't have to put up with this from adults).

    I wanted to make sure I did get something in writing, s I questioned them over text:

    Me: When was the attempted break in and did you file a police report? Need it for the ins company.

    Tenant 2 (the one who supposedly broke the door): Didn't take nothing.

    Me: Yes, but they apparently broke the door. When did it happen and did you file a police report? And why would someone break in and take nothing? Was there a break in or not? What happened to the door?

    Tenant 2: Yeah they broke in but they didn't take anything they must of heard the alarm and took off.

    Me: Ok, when? And did you file a police report? And if that's what happened, why did you tell me that the door "just fell out"?

    Tenant 2: <Thumbs up emoji>

    Me: What? Can you please just let me know what happened so I can get it taken care of??

    No further responses.

    There was another conversation about something else and this is what tenant 1 said: "Again, we will pay the rent plus the plumber fee. The door will be replaced" (I had told him I was getting an estimate within 30 days)

    Also, they've been sent the notice to pay. The only refutation was the cost of the estimate, not that they shouldn't have to pay to fix/replace the door. That's when I told them that they were welcome to get other estimates from professionals.

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    @Amanda B.,

    Fact is - they should, but they're not going to pay for it, so, it's up to you to replace it. Sure, you might be able to get a judgment, but that's only going to be worth as much as your ability to collect from them. Chances are, they don't have it. 

    You can get a prehung 36"x80" exterior door for under $ 200.00. No big deal to frame down 4" and then add thicker trim at the top. 

    But, hey, what do I know? I'm not in your area and if you're sure that labor is that high in your area, then I have nothing else to say on that. 

  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    @Michaela G. - maybe because the house is so old? I have no idea. I just know we went through this at our house. Our entry door downstairs is like 31 or 32", way non-standard and it was going to cost us around $1200 for something cheap at home depot (because it's custom size, is what we were told). The Window World guy said, if it's custom size, add $700 to whatever standard would cost. I don't know anything about it either! Maybe because of the extreme temperatures here? (we can go from -5 to 55 in the matter of a week)

    Obviously these guys aren't going to pay and when they get out (or who knows maybe they will take the time to find a better estimate), we can use their $1700 security deposit and then go shopping around for estimates.

    I honestly have no plans to sue them. It's not worth it. We sued a contractor who took $12,000 to order cabinets for our kitchen and laid the floor and we never saw him again... We're still trying to collect a year later. Not a dime even though we have a judgement. So I'm not going to bother with these guys, I really just want them out, want to get the house in better order and like everyone here says, get it sold. I have ZERO interest in being a landlord, even if I WAS making money. It's just too stressful and time consuming for my taste.

  • Property Manager · Lakewood, OH · Member since 2015 · 250 posts · 258 votes
    8y

    I can't stress this enough @Amanda B. you sound like a nice person but you're still not in Captain mode. 

    This isn't a democracy at this point. They're clearly jerking you around. You're clearly not taking charge. Tell them what decision you've come to. Tell them what they owe. Tell them when it's due. If it's not paid then tell them they're getting evicted and then tell yourself to start the eviction process. 

    Be the alpha not the democratic bff. 

  • Raleigh, NC · Member since 2018 · 14 posts · 2 votes
    8y

    I had a similar problem when I first began renting. I ended up spending tons of energy over the course of a year fixing tenant-caused problems that were absolutely out of line with our lease contract. But, being a bit new and eager to create a good landlord brand for myself, I let myself believe this was just the sort of work required to be a property manager and carried on. 

    Normally I'd be the first to say that, even with problems that border the line of being within the bounds of your lease agreement, you should look at having to make repairs or improvements as opportunities to create a good name for yourself. You shouldn't want anyone to think of you as a the stingy landlord who takes every chance to save a dollar, creating a bare minimum experience for their tenants.

    BUT, the scenario you're describing seems way past that. Even though at least some part of you probably knows this, it sometimes helps to hear someone else say it—your tenants ARE taking advantage of you, and you have a personal and business obligation to yourself to change the situation. The risky move would be to have a serious meeting with your tenants and outline the changes that need to happen. Considering the fact that they have already caused serious damage to the property and will most likely continue to do so, the SAFE move would be to look for grounds for eviction based on your lease agreement.

    These situations are super taxing to deal with—it's so much nicer to just think of renting properties as a passive income source where everything just goes according to plan. But accept that these things DO happen, it isn't necessarily you're fault, and deal with it as any business deals with an unforseen problem—quickly, responsibly, and without dwelling on the misfortune.

  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    @Anthony R. @Benjamin Hart -  I really appreciate your input. I'm not sure if you've seen the two comments from people in my state, such as @Chris K., who is an attorney. I'm not in the greatest position to just demand whatever I want and have the confidence that a magistrate will see eye-to-eye with me. 

    I think, though, at this point, I've done pretty much what you've both said. I gave them the estimate for the door and a 30 day notice to pay or get out (and I'm only asking for half in that 30 days, not because I want to be "BFF" with a couple of man-children, but because I don't want a magistrate to see me as being "unreasonable" and side with them). I also cited all of their other breaches of lease that they also need to remedy in that time. Not sure there's anything else I can really do here.

    Also, don't misunderstand the situation, please. I'm not trying to be "nice", I'm trying to be what the court will see as "reasonable". I'm trying to protect myself legally. It's not going to do me any good to make a bunch of demands, file an eviction and have a judge give them more time or dismiss the case. You guys might be able to operate that way in your respective states, train your tenants and make them follow to the letter, but where I am, it seems, only non-payment of rent is a surefire cause for eviction.

    Believe me, I have never once thought of renting properties as easy or as a nice passive income. I didn't think that before I started renting that house. It was on the market, empty, for a year and everyone kept telling me to rent it and I wanted NO PART OF THAT. Not until I realized it wasn't going to sell and I couldn't keep paying the mortgage there on my own did I decide to rent it. And, lucky me, my first tenant was an awesome guy and his wife. I give you all props for dealing with this crap!!

  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y
    In the end you are not going to get more then the security deposit for the door so find someone who will fix it for less or replace it for less. Plane it so its not so sticky. Let them pay a locksmith to fix the door knob. I believe though your best bet is sell. Hope you are not putting windows in while these guys are there. Any of your neighbors know someone?
  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    @Colleen F. - if by some miracle they pay the estimate amount, you're right that's probably the only way I would get the entire door and everything replaced. We will probably look at a way to fix the window panel, my son is an apprentice carpenter.

    I'm not sure about planing anything or the need for that, nothing sticks. In fact, the door is larger than a standard size door, so If anything we'd either need to bring the frame down or have a custom door made.

    The only thing that was ever "wrong" with it was that the lock is old and you can't jam the key in and turn like a new lock/door, you have to work it a little, pull up on the handle. But I lived there 6 years and had a tenant there 6 years (and it never got any worse in all that time, it was the same as the day I bought it) and neither of us had any issues. Probably because we didn't come home drunk and belligerent. 

  • Investor · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y

    @Amanda B. , If you are only getting ridiculous prices from contractors where you are, try calling handymen (not licensed GCs) in Youngstown, OH or New Castle, PA. It's less than an hour away. I know you can find reasonable labor up that way.  Home depot sells a 36x80 steel entry door for $99. Adding a 2x4 and some trim to lower a door frame is a VERY small job; combine that with hanging an exterior door and you shouldn't pay more than $500 or $600 total installed for that door. As much as I hate to say it-- but especially if you are not able to communication very directly EXACTLY what you want, ask a male friend or family member to get your quotes. Or  practice "Are you kiddin' me ???!!! ALL I want is this door frame lowered 4." Also, If you like shopping you might also look around at places that specialize in architectural antiques, maybe you'll get lucky.

  • Attorney · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Amanda B.

    Those texts are not "perfect" but certainly usable! 

    As for the door replacement, I would look into either: (1) framing it down; or (2) have a carpenter build a small transom on the top. I wouldn't pay for a custom sized door. 

    Disclaimer: While I’m an attorney licensed to practice in PA, I’m not your attorney. What I wrote above does not create an attorney/client relationship between us. I wrote the above for informational purposes. Do not rely on it for legal advice. Always consult with your attorney before you rely on the above information.

  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    We just got a call from Tenant 1. He said that Tenant 2 has now broken the back door (he sent a picture), because he, tenant 1, refused to allow Tenant 2 to move his girlfriend in. I conferenced my husband into the phone call and we advised him to call the police and get everything in a report, including the front door if possible. Tenant 1 has now said that Tenant 2 did indeed break the front door. Now, All of this was in a phone call, not in writing, but the two of them are obviously going to start pointing fingers at one another.

    We also advised him that the best thing they can do is just leave. All of them. That we can't just evict his roommate, because they are both on the lease. I wouldn't want to rent to this guy anyway, he's the one who gave me all the attitude and refused to take responsibility for me having to send someone to change a lightbulb.

    I have a consult with a local attorney tomorrow (the last one I spoke to practices in Pittsburgh and it sounds like someone local might be better). Until then, I also got the name of the girlfriend and asked Tenant 1 to send any pictures that might indicate she is living there. I plan to send another notice for an unauthorized tenant. Unfortunately, my guest policy only states "more than 5 consecutive nights" - another thing I need to change if I rent again.

    I'm also thinking I should draft another notice for the back door, or maybe just file the eviction now, before more damage is done. I will wait, however, until I talk to the attorney tomorrow. Do you all think that's too long to wait? Do you think I should just call the original attorney I spoke with and move on this today?

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Amanda B.:

    We just got a call from Tenant 1. He said that Tenant 2 has now broken the back door (he sent a picture), because he, tenant 1, refused to allow Tenant 2 to move his girlfriend in. I conferenced my husband into the phone call and we advised him to call the police and get everything in a report, including the front door if possible. Tenant 1 has now said that Tenant 2 did indeed break the front door. Now, All of this was in a phone call, not in writing, but the two of them are obviously going to start pointing fingers at one another.

    We also advised him that the best thing they can do is just leave. All of them. That we can't just evict his roommate, because they are both on the lease. I wouldn't want to rent to this guy anyway, he's the one who gave me all the attitude and refused to take responsibility for me having to send someone to change a lightbulb.

    I have a consult with a local attorney tomorrow (the last one I spoke to practices in Pittsburgh and it sounds like someone local might be better). Until then, I also got the name of the girlfriend and asked Tenant 1 to send any pictures that might indicate she is living there. I plan to send another notice for an unauthorized tenant. Unfortunately, my guest policy only states "more than 5 consecutive nights" - another thing I need to change if I rent again.

    I'm also thinking I should draft another notice for the back door, or maybe just file the eviction now, before more damage is done. I will wait, however, until I talk to the attorney tomorrow. Do you all think that's too long to wait? Do you think I should just call the original attorney I spoke with and move on this today?

    Move forward with eviction. Whether the girlfriend is a guest or living there is not important. The roommates have gotten into an altercation which damaged your property. This is on top of a long list of other things. Serve notice to vacate based on their damage of the property. You are not a detective and your job isn't to prove who is right. They are both on the lease and the damage occurred, so they both must go. Do it official with your attorney and proper notice served. Use a process server who will knock on their door and hand notice to them.

  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    @Joe Splitrock - that's my plan. I have a waiver of notice in the lease, so when I meet with the attorney tomorrow I'm just going to pay the retainer and have them evict. Cost of damages aside, this is probably the best thing that could have happened, besides them getting their act together and paying for the door. With the two of them divided (tenant 1 has all but moved out) and additional damage, there is no way I won't be granted an eviction and from what I have read, evictions move pretty fast in PA.

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Amanda B.:

    @Joe Splitrock - that's my plan. I have a waiver of notice in the lease, so when I meet with the attorney tomorrow I'm just going to pay the retainer and have them evict. Cost of damages aside, this is probably the best thing that could have happened, besides them getting their act together and paying for the door. With the two of them divided (tenant 1 has all but moved out) and additional damage, there is no way I won't be granted an eviction and from what I have read, evictions move pretty fast in PA.

    Good luck Amanda! You are better off having that unit vacant so you can find a good tenant. It is not worth the stress. 

  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    @Joe Splitrock thank you!! Hopefully he leaves peacefully.

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