New here and first bout with awful tenants

New here and first bout with awful tenants

Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes

Hi everyone! I am new here and still relatively new to renting my house out, even though I've been doing it for about 7 years now. I'm only on my second set of tenants.

My question/situation is:

I rent my old house. The one I ill advisedly bought when I got married for the first time at the tender age of 20, which was remortgaged once and has not increased in value at all since (and the taxes have gone up). It's old (1920's), needs some work and is in a relatively crappy (but not dangerous) neighborhood.

Anyway, I (STUPIDLY) rented to two guys with less than great credit thinking that they would be working all the time and be able to take care of maintenance issues on their own (in the lease). I have since had them get water on the floor and bring down the living room ceiling (something they deny, despite the plumber telling this to me) - I haven't made them pay for it, instead I had another plumber there and am now moving on to a roofer because there's nothing wrong with the plumbing. This water thing has happened twice now in a month or so, despite heavy rains and melting snow. The second time was almost immediately after I told them the plumber said they caused the issue. Since I can't prove it was them, I'm not making them pair or repair and am working tirelessly to track down and resolve the "issue". Also, the first time the plumber showed, despite me communicating with them since morning that he'd be there and being assured they'd be home, the one was upstairs with his girlfriend and couldn't be bothered to answer the door. 

A bunch of issues occurred - storm window "fell off", front door was broken in "attempted burglary" (according to on of them, other one said that the pane and the lattice work between "just fell off"), gutter fell off the back. despite the lease stating that they must notify me immediately, they did not. Had to send my son there (an hour away) to change a lightbulb, even though I asked if they had changed it and to fix the ceiling fan that "just stopped working" because they broke the pull chain. They refused to pay for this too.

I then discovered they had been smoking and scattering cigarette butts all over the yard, despite the lease stating that it's a non-smoking property and there is no smoking on or in the leased premises. They were keeping their trash in bags on the back deck and my husband and I observed and took pictures of rib bones spilling from a torn bag (lease says they have to have containers). House is not cluttered and everything was put away, but there are food crumbs all over the floor and the steps are full of debris like they haven't been cleaned since they moved in. They also opened a box of linoleum tiles I had in the basement and used them to create a walkway in the basement.

So to shorten this a bit, i talked to a lawyer and sent them a 30 notice of breach of lease. I gave them the option to fix all the issues, included an estimate of replacing the front door with the cheapest available door and asked that they pay the half up front so we can get the door scheduled. They took responsibility for the door, even though one of them claimed a burglary. I spoke with a lawyer so I know I'm within my rights, but man am I anxious because they have come back at me with so much BS that I keep second guessing myself. 

I gave them the option to get another estimate, by putting their preferred contractor in touch with me within the 30 days. I won't let them just have the work done, because who's to say WHO they would hire and what I would end up with?? The estimate is very high, but the door is a custom size. Now he's claiming I should only make them replace the glass and the latticework (basically repair the door) and I am not opposed to this, IF it can be done and I told them that.

They're just making me feel unreasonable and I know that's what people do, they try to justify their horrible behavior, but it's really starting to make me sick (literally) with anxiety. I don't want to have all this confrontation and I don't want to have to watch everything I do (they are not demanding that they be home when I go there, even though the lease only requires 24 hours notice for me to enter, regardless of who is or is not there).

I guess I'm just looking for some commiseration and support :-) It'd be useful to hear what others have gone through, how they've handled and the outcome. Or if you have any tips or suggestions. I'm in Pennsylvania (not Philly) BTW.

Thanks everyone!!

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Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
8y

Your awful tenants are nothing compared to what bad tenants are actually like. Most of your problems unfortunately are created by two factors. First you are emotional, there is absolutely no place for emotions in this business. Not sure how you can fix that but it is your primary problem. Second you must learn to operate your business as a business. You do not ask, you tell your tenants what they are responsible for and you never negotiate.  Lay down the law and never compromise on your decisions and actions. Stop giving them choices and tell them how it is going to be. Stop letting them off th ehook for damages they caused. S**t does not just happen unless something is worn out.

I can not commiserate only give advice. Your best option is to either non renew their lease or allow to let them out of th elease if you feel you can get better tennats. Frankly I do not believe they are that bad you simply must learn how to manage tennats. That is your real problem.

P.S. never expect tennats to repair or take care of problem, th evast majority of tennats are 100% irresponsible.

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  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    @Andrew Herrig - you're totally correct, but I don't have $10k up front, right now, to get the house sold. Believe me, if I did, I'd do it.

  • Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2012 · 502 posts · 263 votes
    8y

    @Amanda B. Tough spot to be in. Sorry you are dealing with this. As others have mentioned, I would at least consult with a few property managers and see if you can get the income up and have someone else dealing with day to day tenant issues.

  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    @Michaela G. that's a great suggestion! I'm obviously one of those people that needs to talk to an expert to allay my fears and anxieties. something like that would be great for me to make sure I'm doing things correctly without the hefty price tag.

    Each time I have put the house for rent, I have offered rent to own. I have also made it clear to tenants/applicants that I am willing to sell to them at any time. The realtor I was using to try to sell did say that the whole rent-to-own process can be messy and require down payments that some people may not be able to come up with. She recommended just getting a tenant in with the option to buy, but not under contract to do so.

  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    @Joe Splitrock - I have owned the property for 12 years, yes, and the mortgage payment has increased because the taxes have at least doubled (which is insane, given that the area isn't getting any better). I also have to pay for a landlord policy on the house. Both of those things are easily adding $200-300 to the actual mortgage. It's about $800. I can't really charge more than $850 for a 2 bedroom in the area. I have spoken with a realtor about it and she agrees. The house was refinanced once, with money taken (back when I was still married to the person I bought the house with). This added quite a bit to the principal. You also have to consider closing costs and realtor commissions, so I have to sell for at least $10K more than I owe and I owe about what the house is worth (maybe a little less). The problem is that it's a tiny 2 br in a not so great area. And also, like I said, the basement was partially finished when I bought it, now it's a mess. There was also a half bath down there that got destroyed. It could certainly be reinstated, but now it's a 2 br 1 bath, and what I bought was a 2 br, 1.5 bath.

    I did NOT say the source of the water damage was the tenants. I said that I originally had a plumber there and the PLUMBER stated that the tenants got water on the floor (the curtain was outside the shower) and that's what caused the issue. I originally told them they needed to pay for it and fix the ceiling. Then, mysteriously, it happened again not long after they were told to pay for it and given the bill. Now, we have had rain and melting snow, huge storms, etc. This "leak" has happened a total of twice in approximately a month. The ceiling is bone dry right now, and was after our heaviest rain a couple weeks ago. Still, I had another plumber come, who said there is nothing wrong with the plumbing. I am meeting a roofer there tomorrow. My gut instinct here is that they caused the problem to occur again because they didn't want to pay $100 for the plumber (after having to pay $50 for trip fee for the time they didn't answer the door when he came). HOWEVER, I am doing everything I can to ensure the problem is not with the house (as much for my sake as theirs, because it's not going to do me a damned bit of good to have them pay for it if it's going to keep happening).

    They have turned this incident into a reason NEVER to pay for anything. They are accusing me of trying to make them fix and remodel my house, basically, which certainly is not the case. That's why I am wishy washy on making them pay for stuff, because I AM trying to be fair and not accuse them of things they didn't do.

    To be clear, the ceiling/water damage is NOT the reason for evicting them. Primarily, the damage to the front door, their filthiness and the lying and story telling all make me want them out of there. Also, it's a no smoking property and the front yard is littered with cigarettes. Now, there's all this push back from them, and probably for the reason given by everyone here: I have waffled on things and not stood my ground. But what you're saying now is that I am accusing them of something they didn't do, and that's what they're saying and that's where I am stuck :-)

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    Ok, filthiness and lying are unfortunately not legal reasons for evictions and smoking in the front yard is different from smoking inside, so I don't think you can do anything about that either. 

    BUT in your lease there are probably mentions of keeping the property clean and damage free etc. So, the water damage (clearly because they don't have the shower curtain inside the tub and thus much of the shower water goes onto the bathroom floor and then down onto the sheetrock ceiling in the room below) and door damage and other damage needs to be your reasoning. 

    You can give them a 3-day notice to have these things professionally fixed and if they don't, you can file. It might shock them to wake up. 

    I'm not an attorney and I don't even play one on tv, so, this is not legal advice. 

  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    Hi @Michaela G. - I actually sent them a notice for several things (I do know that lying and being filthy are not reasons, except where such things break the lease - like not keeping the garbage in bins outside, spelled out in the lease.) As far as smoking, there is no smoking on the premises period. Does that stop them from smoking on the sidewalk out front? Nope, I know. BUT they can't leave butts in the yard.

    I realize that I cannot evict them for some of these complaints alone, but it's a aggregation of all of the lease breaches and damages (again, I didn't cite the ceiling since I don't have proof that it's not an issue with the house). Here what was cited, and I did read this over to an attorney who gave it his approval:

    1. Not maintaining appropriate container(s) for outside trash (in the lease)

    2. Not maintaining a cleanly state inside the home (in the lease)

    3. Using property inside the home that does not belong to tenant (box of tiles)

    4. Using a space heater inside the home (in the lease)

    5. Not reporting damages to Landlord (in the lease that they will report IMMEDIATELY)

    6. Smoking on premises (in the lease)

    Under each of these I gave the observes issue in detail and why it is a breach of the lease.

    I also have another section that tells them how they can rectify each issue, with a time frame. This includes paying half up front for the damaged door to be replaced, and I attached the estimate. Then paying half upon completion of the work.

    At the very end I have this:

    1.If you do not wish to comply with these remedies, you may leave the property within 30 days of the posting of this notice

    a.You will forfeit your security deposit

    b.You will not be exempted from complying with the terms of the Lease agreement

    c.You will not be exempted for paying rent for the months that you have occupied the premises (rent will not be prorated)

    d.You will not be relieved of responsibility for damages to the property

    e.You will not be evicted and thus will not have an eviction on your credit history if you remove all of your property from the premises within 30 days, return all keys to Landlord, leave the property as you found it (including but not limited to clean and free of debris) and do not cause any further damages

    Eviction is costly for myself as well as for you. Eviction will make it difficult, if not impossible, to find another place to rent. I would like to avoid this measure for my own sake as well as yours.

    I would also highly recommend that you review the terms and conditions set forth in the Lease agreement so that you understand it and please let me know if you have any questions.

    The lawyer suggested that a judge would find 30 days reasonable, given the amount of the estimate ($3600 total for the least expensive door, which is not even comparable aesthetically to the current door). I'm not asking them to fix the ceiling until I verify that nothing is wrong with the roof or window, which will be tomorrow. I will then write them up a separate notice for that.

    It's also my understanding that this doesn't serve as a notice to vacate and that, after 30 days, I will need to give them one of those, which needs then 15 days for breach (it's 10 days for non payment of rent)before I can file for the eviction.

    On another note, with all these issues outstanding, one of them had the nerve to tell me (not ask) that he was adopting a cat. I do allow pets, but they need written permission and there are things they need to sign and pay extra rent. I told him I will not give permission for a pet until they rectify everything in the Notice.

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    8y

    @Amanda B. I have no idea what they did or didn't do. I was just trying to ask questions to better understand and hopefully help you. Tenants usually say they didn't cause damage. I have had really good tenants, who are otherwise honest, come up with stories to avoid responsibility for damage. That is one of the most difficult parts of being a landlord.

    At my personal residence, I had a situation where my exhaust vent for bathroom fan leaked during some rain storms. Roof and vent were 5 years old. It only happened during some rain storms. We filled a 5 gallon bucket one time from water dripping. It turned out that they put one bead of caulk on the roof vent and it hasn't leaked since. It was shocking how much water could come in from such a small leak. It was also strange it only happened during some storms, probably due to wind direction.

    I am not saying the tenant didn't do it. They could have staged the second event as you suspect, which if they did that is big trouble. If they didn't do it, you will want to find the problem before it does more damage - that is all I am getting at.

    I agree that you should get them out of there. Not because of one single issue, but rather a whole series of issues. The cash out refinance and basement damage explain the crux of your problem. 

    You mentioned the taxes have gone up. Has the assessed value increased or has it stayed the same and just taxes have gone up? You can fight assessment if value is the issue.

    As far as your comment about a cat. DO NOT allow this tenant to get a cat. They are not responsible owners and the cat will pee all over the house. It will destroy carpet, sub floor, sheet rock, wood moldings. Everything needs to be ripped out. Cats are way worse than dogs to get the smell out. You will let this get way worse if the cat enters.

    My overall advice is to find a way to sell this place. It sounds like the property quality is continuing to degrade the longer you own it. As the quality degrades, you will keep getting worse tenants. Worse tenants will make it degrade more. You see the problem.

  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    @Joe Splitrock I'm on the same page with you. I have two cats. I love cats. I'm glad people want to adopt cats. He can do it in someone else's house. You're absolutely spot on that, given their inability to keep things clean (and I can't even tell you how many times the one guy has gone on about how clean they are, presumably because the house isn't CLUTTERED), I would never approve them to have an animal, even though that's something I do typically allow. Thankfully, there is verbiage in the lease that they need written permission for any new animal. They don't have any right now.

    It just goes to demonstrate the audacity of these guys... He didn't ask if he could get a cat, he didn't ask what he needed to do to be able to get a cat, he just told me he was getting one. It's clear that they never actually read the lease (my husband said he never read his leases when he was a young, renting man, so I guess it's not uncommon, but my husband isn't a dirty moron either). It's kind of like opening up a box of floor tiles that don't belong to you and using them without permission, then pitching a fit because I told you that you had to pay for them (a whopping $25)! These guys are just overgrown children (they're in their late 30's btw) and I just don't want to deal with them any more if there is a way out. Especially if they are going to cause significant damage and then lie about it (the front door).

    The taxes have just gone up, unfortunately. Like I said, it doesn't make any sense because the area isn't getting any better. Maybe they're doing it in an effort to make the area unaffordable to certain people? Who knows! Believe me, I would love love love to sell that place. We came close once, but they were HUD buyers and came in way under then changed their mind very quickly. Other than that, it sat empty for a year on the market and was broken into and a bunch of copper was taken. As much as I hate dealing with renters, dealing with an empty house is also a nightmare when I live so far away from it!

  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    I just wanted to thank everyone here again for taking the time to read and respond to my issue/question/rambling. I feel a lot more confident in my actions now, and as much as I hate the conflict still, I now finally feel like I'm the one with the upper hand (as I should be since I OWN the property!!). I'd love to hear any more suggestions, particularly on resources for maybe learning to deal with conflict and for being assertive (which I usually have no issue being, nor do I have leadership problems, I've been in management for years!!) with tenants. I've read a few posts on here where people mention mantras, I really like that. I'm also willing to read any books you all suggest. Thanks again for lending your ears and expertise!!

    Also any more resources or suggestions for screening the next one would be most welcome!!

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    Is it near anything that would make sense to convert it into an airbnb and hire a local person to clean? If there's a college near by or convention center or something.

  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    Thats an interesting idea, but I don't know if I would be comfortable with managing something like that. W&J College is near, but that area of town is nicer and has a bunch of new dorma and old victorian's turned into dorms.

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    Those college kids might have parents visiting and need a place to stay

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    Go to airbnb and see if there are any listings in that area. Look at their calendar and see how much they're booked out. Check out their pricing. If that looks promising, buy a report from airdna.com for that zipcode and get more details about listings there. 

    If you have someone to clean, you could set it up with remote locks etc, have security system 

  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    8y
    If they have a pet and its a no pet property violate them seperately for that if you havent already. Also I would try to fix the door, that's a lot to replace. Having dealt with smokers who dont think butts are trash and twenty something slobs I empathise, your best bet is get them out. It will be a big relief. I almost think you are better off if you say of you are out by x day and leave it clean you get the deposit. just let them stay in the dark next time they dont change light bulbs.
  • Evergreen Park, IL · Member since 2016 · 138 posts · 59 votes
    8y

    It sounds like you fell into the landlording business on accident, it may just not be the industry for you. Sometimes you have to go to court, some times you aren't going to be happy with your tenants, there will be things that you have to fix, etc... Its just part of the business. For many people, that hassle isn't worth it, and there is nothing wrong with that.

    I know you say, "I cant sell it" but honesty, a mismanaged property can and will get so badly destroyed that you will never get out from under it. So I would just figure out if this avenue is for you, if not, cut your losses and move on.

  • Jacob CaddickPro Member
    Investor · Casa Grande, AZ · Member since 2017 · 20 posts · 12 votes
    8y
    What if you converted the basement into a second unit? That could help you potentially make a profit. Could you take a loan to sell the property? It's very easy to get a loan from crowd fund lenders like lending club. You could structure it over 5 years and only lose a couple hundred a month instead of what sounds like thousands. Plus, zero headache to deal with! Hell, maybe you can market the property as a duplex with the basement situation fixed, and bring in more at sale. As everyone else has stated, it sounds like your capital expenses are going to hit the fan very soon here. Since you are not in the business, it might be better to budget a small loss over a short period if time, rather than several unexpected large lump sum losses. At least that way, there is an out, and a light at the end of the tunnel. If it were me personally, I'd redo the entire house. I wouldn't want my name on a house that is falling apart. Plus, I like the idea of rebuilding neighborhoods. Good luck with what you do!
  • Investor · Morrisville, NC · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 673 votes
    8y

    @Amanda B.  I know you have already answered my initial suggestion, but I think I should still put it out there for you to consider: Figure out a way to sell it, even at a loss. Sometimes, it is best to take a loss and have piece of mind. 

  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    @Henri Meli - selling is definitely the answer, I know. The only problem is, unless I can get someone to agree to rent while it's on the market, I'm out $850/month on the mortgage until it sells. We are considering getting financing to have all the windows redone (they really, really need it) and maybe that will be what it takes to get the house to sell for what we owe (and we take a loss on the windows).

    We went today and the roofers think they found a spot under the bathroom window where water was getting in - so hopefully that fixes the water issue. It still seems odd to me that it just started happening out of nowhere, since the window's been like that for a LONG time. Also, the first time it happened, it wasn't even raining. I have a feeling that, either way, the issue isn't going to occur again.

    Even after the notice, they are still leaving the trash in bags on the back deck. Still butts all over the front yard. They do seem to have at least swept the floors. I did discover that there is further damage to the door since the last time we were there. The knob/handle is now loose and all the screws are missing from the inside knob. The door doesn't close well or all the way and it looks like there's new damage to the door frame, maybe like someone was slamming it? They are belly aching because they broke their one good key and now copies are not working (probably partially because it's an old door and partially because they damaged the lock when they broke the key). They are trying to claim the door was always an issue, but the first time I heard about it was a few weeks ago when they guy told me he broke his key and asked for a new one - this was also when we discovered the damage to the door. He's refused to pay the $25 key replacement fee because he says the new keys don't work (we tested them, and because of whatever was done to the door, you really have to play with them to make them work).

    Anyway, it seems like they're not going to take the notice seriously and they are certainly not going to pay for the door (I was going to let them just replace the window section, but not now that there is additional damage). I did get pictures.

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2010 · 76 posts · 55 votes
    8y

    Sell the home.   Ask your bank about a short sale.   Take out a personal loan if you need to get it off your hands.  

    This is a massive loss maker based on; 

    • low income area 
    • you live an hour away
    • rent only covers mortgage, taxes, insurance

    Low income tenants is a specialized area.  They require a lot of management, which you can not provide from an hour away.   Many in this class of tenant need a landlord to make up for the lack of parents in their life.  

    Low income areas yield much more money to make up for the additional management.   

    About 40% of your rent is going to expenses (maintenance, utilities, taxes, insurance).   So unless your mortgage is less than half your rent, you are paying money every month just holding this property.   

    We are nearing the top of the economic cycle.  This home will not go up in value over inflation.   Low income areas are pretty much tapped out today, due to all the dumb money flowing into real estate.   The only exception is gentrifying areas.   

    You should sell.   Try to find local turnkey companies, and see if any are interested in marking your home to out of state investors.   These investors often pay far higher than market rates to buy investment properties.   They market to people in California and NYC, who don't understand housing is cheaper elsewhere.  

  • Attorney · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Amanda B.

    As @Steve Babiak said, many magistrate judges do not have any formal legal training. So it's hard to say what proof you need to show that the tenant caused the damage. Even at the Common Pleas level, different judges can rule differently on the same set of facts since reasonable people can reach a different conclusion based on the same evidence.

    Incidentally, that's why the best reason for eviction is ultimately nonpayment of rent. It doesn't require you to prove that the tenants are smoking inside the building. It also doesn't require the magistrate to figure out what constitutes a "clean state." 

    Here are some other miscellaneous thoughts: 

    • If you get to a point where you have to deal with the security deposit, make sure you comply with what the law says. 
    • Getting a judgment is different from collecting on a judgment. This is important to remember if you have to file an eviction action. 
    • I generally agree with others that sometimes selling at a loss is better than keeping a property. If you truly have no equity in this house, you may want to ask your lender to see if you can dump it off to them using a deed-in-lieu. If you have a Fannie or Freddie mortgage, there are specific guidelines on what happens in these situations. 

    Disclaimer: While I’m an attorney licensed to practice in PA, I’m not your attorney. What I wrote above does not create an attorney/client relationship between us. I wrote the above for informational purposes. Do not rely on it for legal advice. Always consult with your attorney before you rely on the above information.

  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    @Chris K. thanks for the insight. I understand that, ultimately, non-payment of rent is the kicker, but how much damage am I supposed to allow these guys to do? They have damaged the door to the point where it needs to be replaced, a $3600 job according to the estimate I got. Even if I can find someone to just replace the door and not be required to put in the door frame also, the door is a custom size and is going to cost a good $1400+.

    I also found in the lease that I have a Waiver of Notice:

    WAIVER OF NOTICE: The Tenant waives the right to receive a Notice of Default from the Landlord unless such notice is required by state or local regulations.

    I. You are waiving your right to have a notice sent to you before the Landlord starts court action to recover possession for nonpayment of rent or any other reason.

    That being said, I only have to give them the 30 days from the notice I sent (which is more than reasonable) to put half down for the door damage. Then I can just file for the eviction. I just can't see how a judge will find it unreasonable for me to kick them out for causing considerable damage and refusing to pay for it.

  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    I hope now it's a bit more clear as to why I have been hesitant to just demand things and force my tenants to do this and that just because I am telling them to. There are tons of people who know how to game the system, that cry poor-mouth and play victim... And these judges side with them! Can you imagine going through with filing an eviction, having done all the paperwork correctly, done everything you're supposed to and having a judge come back and rule against you??? 

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    8y

    Doors don't cost that much. Since it's a rental, you can replace with a standard, pre-hung door. Door and install shouldn't be more than $ 500.00 . Most doors are 36" - unless your door is much, much larger, it can easily framed down to 36" size and have a standard door installed. Check out Home Depot's website for prehung doors. It doesn't need to be fancy.

  • Attorney · Nashville, TN · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Amanda B.

    A few other thoughts: 

    • I would save all the communication between you and the tenants regarding the responsibility for the damaged door. Hopefully, you have the admission in some form of writing --- even texts or emails from the tenants could help. Proving fault in these cases can get tricky without an admission from tenants if it involves exterior damage.
    • I often like to tell folks that "If it's not in writing signed by the other party, it never happened." Of course, this is not always possible. Yet it's a good principle to live by.  
    • I don't know if you have your lease in editable form, but you may want to talk to your lawyer about slightly modifying the Waiver of Notice language. Note that Pennsylvania law uses the term Notice to Quit instead of Notice of Default. And while I doubt the magistrate judge would analyze it to this level of detail, conceptually a Notice to Quit serves a different purpose aside from notifying a tenant of a default. If you are willing to give the proper Notice to Quit, it's a somewhat moot point. But something to keep in mind. 

    Disclaimer: While I’m an attorney licensed to practice in PA, I’m not your attorney. What I wrote above does not create an attorney/client relationship between us. I wrote the above for informational purposes. Do not rely on it for legal advice. Always consult with your attorney before you rely on the above information.

  • Allison Park, PA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 3 votes
    8y

    No it doesn't need to be fancy, at the same time, shouldn't they be required to pay for something comparable?

    Also, we have gone through this with an entry door in our basement in our home. It's a non standard door size, that automatically adds about $600 to the cost of the door and the standard price with installation is about $400- $600. So over $1000. This was from Home Depot. 

    I'm sure I could get a cheaper estimate, but no one is doing that door for under $1000, guaranteed, and probably a lot more if you want a door that's actually going to be secure. And that's the cheapest door I can get my hands on. Forget being comparable to what is there now, aesthetically. Also, the lawyer said I was only required to get one estimate and that if the renters dispute it, they can get their own estimates and present them to me (which is why I gave them that option).

    For the record, the door is 36" x 84" - the 84" is what is non-standard. I'm not a contractor, I don't do this for a living and I shouldn't have to run all over the place and keep driving down there to get estimates - I didn't break the door!! I agree that $3600 is high. I wouldn't pay that for a door in my own house. The thing is, a lot of places, especially for entry doors, will not install them without reinstalling the jamb and the frame - because they guarantee them and can't do that if only half of it is their work. I've also had stuff installed before by Home Depot and I don't really think it's good workmanship. So what happens when I put the house on the market and someone decides to break in to get more copper? There goes that cheap Home Depot door and a whole bunch of copper.

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