More discussion on therapy animals...

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More discussion on therapy animals...

Anthony Wick
Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes

I know there has been much discussion lately on allowing therapy animals. I have never been asked, until now. 

Phone Caller: Do you allow therapy animals? 

Me: Do you have the proper paperwork for said animals? 

Her: No, but I am working on getting it. 

Me: What kind of animals are they? 

Her: Two dogs. Pit Bull/Boxer mix. 

Me: I would consult with my attorney and insurance company. 

Her: Ok. Thank you. (hangs up phone)

So, did I handle this correctly? I did not state I would not allow her dogs. Nor did I say I would. She claimed to have no paperwork, but also didn't push the issue upon my answer. I obviously would not want to violate any landlord/tenant laws. 

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JD MartinBusiness Member
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Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
7y

"We consider all applications that meet our rental criteria as units are available and as applications are submitted". 

This tells them virtually nothing. I don't think you handled it wrong, I just don't like answering hypothetical questions. Unless you have something to rent, and they're filling out an application, there's nothing to talk about. 

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  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    7y

    "We consider all applications that meet our rental criteria as units are available and as applications are submitted". 

    This tells them virtually nothing. I don't think you handled it wrong, I just don't like answering hypothetical questions. Unless you have something to rent, and they're filling out an application, there's nothing to talk about. 

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  • Alex P.
    Investor · Longview, WA · Member since 2015 · 94 posts · 176 votes
    7y
    I was thinking about this a couple weeks back too when I listed a rental. Can you ask what type of animals they are? I was under the impression that you could not.
    0Reply
  • Sam Shueh
    Real Estate Agent · Cupertino, CA · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Make it simple just DO NOT ALLOW pets.


    3Reply
  • Anthony Wick
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    Asking what type of animal was more out of curiosity, not about discriminating against said animal. She had opened with the fact she doesn't have any sort of certificate/paperwork. She said something about "my ex-husband won't give it to me". I ignored that part. 

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  • Anthony Wick
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    She has not applied yet, but I will have 3 units open within the next 30 days (Ankeny, Iowa in case you know somebody!), so I'm just doing a little research. If she applies, and if she meets all other criteria, then I would discuss with my attorney and insurance company. As I understand it, a "no pets" policy does not matter under the current federal law. And,  even if you allow pets and charge a fee, you cannot do that with therapy/service animals. 

    1Reply
  • Rick Mapes
    Investor · Des Moines, IA · Member since 2014 · 44 posts · 33 votes
    7y

    I understand that to be correct ^^- the law treats it like a wheelchair or any other external accommodation that would be illegal to discriminate against. 

    1Reply
  • Matthew Paul
    Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    7y

    No paperwork , means they are pets 

    4Reply
  • Dennis M.
    Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    7y
    @Anthony Wick As soon as I heard that I’d notify them the insurance company prohibits pitbulls . I don’t lie as part of my own beliefs and would not condone it - however if I was a person lIke that who wanted to avoid such problems of therapy animals.. I would say I have a tenant who is seriously allergic and for his medical condition you simply can’t have animals in the building due to his condition
    0Reply
  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Matthew Paul:

    No paperwork , means they are pets 

     I operate under the opposite assumption. Most legitimate service animals have no paper work. Most that have paper work is from some fake internet site.

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  • Vern M.
    Property Manager · Bowie, MD · Member since 2017 · 120 posts · 67 votes
    7y
    @Sam Shueh be careful, therapy/ comfort animals are not considered pets
    2Reply
  • Amy Beth
    Rental Property Investor · Edison, NJ · Member since 2016 · 753 posts · 565 votes
    7y
    @Anthony Wick. I would just let the applicant know that you are able to accept service animals with the proper documentation. I would add in that she/he would need to submit the documentation with the application in order to be considered for the unit. Then I would keep looking for tenants and find someone else to rent to in the meantime.
    0Reply
  • Ryan MurdockPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Anthony Wick:

    Asking what type of animal was more out of curiosity, not about discriminating against said animal. She had opened with the fact she doesn't have any sort of certificate/paperwork. She said something about "my ex-husband won't give it to me". I ignored that part. 

    Did you ask what race her husband was just out of curiosity?  Probably not. It doesn't matter what type of dog it is. Even if your insurance company prohibits it you still have to allow it. I don't like it but that's what you have to do unless you want to get sued and lose.  

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  • Vincent MeoliPro Member
    Danvers, MA · Member since 2017 · 27 posts · 19 votes
    7y
    @Ryan Murdock My understanding was that if it posed an undue burden on the owner (eg becoming uninsurable) then you did not have to accept the ‘therapy animal.’ Any lawyers on here?
    3Reply
  • Ryan MurdockPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Vincent Meoli:
    @Ryan Murdock

    My understanding was that if it posed an undue burden on the owner (eg becoming uninsurable) then you did not have to accept the ‘therapy animal.’

    Any lawyers on here?

    Yes but good luck proving what is undue burden. If your insurance gets dropped their defense will be that you can just find another carrier. It's maddening. I've banged my head against the wall here in my state trying to get a straight answer on "undue burden" and there isn't one.  Check your local laws too....there was recently a law passed here removing liability from a landlord if a tenant's ESA/Service Animal  inflicted damage on another tenant. I've yet to see it tried in court but it's a step in the right direction.

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  • Greg M.
    Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ryan Murdock:

    Yes but good luck proving what is undue burden. If your insurance gets dropped their defense will be that you can just find another carrier. It's maddening. I've banged my head against the wall here in my state trying to get a straight answer on "undue burden" and there isn't one. 


    Actually there is. HUD Memorandum, June 12, 2006, regarding Insurance Policy Restrictions as a Defense for Refusals to Make a Reasonable Accommodation

    According to the Joint Statement on Reasonable Accommodations, an accommodation is unreasonable if it imposes an undue financial and administrative burden on a housing provider's operations. If a housing provider's insurance carrier would cancel, substantially increase the costs of the insurance policy, or adversely change the policy terms because of the presence of a certain breed of dog or a certain animal, HUD will find that this imposes an undue financial and administrative burden on the housing provider. However, the investigator must substantiate the housing provider's claim regarding the potential loss of or adverse change to the insurance coverage, by verifying such a claim with the insurance company directly and considering whether comparable insurance, without the restriction, is available in the market.

    Seems pretty clear cut. And before anyone latches on to the "considering whether comparable insurance without the restriction in the marketplace" caveat, anyone who has tried to find insurance covering a dangerous animal or breed of animal will know that there is no comparable coverage for similar prices. You will be paying significantly more for the same coverage to include certain breeds. Most likely you will have to purchase a separate canine coverage policy. This is an undue financial and administrative burden.

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  • Ryan MurdockPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Greg M.:
    Originally posted by @Ryan Murdock:

    Yes but good luck proving what is undue burden. If your insurance gets dropped their defense will be that you can just find another carrier. It's maddening. I've banged my head against the wall here in my state trying to get a straight answer on "undue burden" and there isn't one. 

    Actually there is. HUD Memorandum, June 12, 2006, regarding Insurance Policy Restrictions as a Defense for Refusals to Make a Reasonable Accommodation

    According to the Joint Statement on Reasonable Accommodations, an accommodation is unreasonable if it imposes an undue financial and administrative burden on a housing provider's operations. If a housing provider's insurance carrier would cancel, substantially increase the costs of the insurance policy, or adversely change the policy terms because of the presence of a certain breed of dog or a certain animal, HUD will find that this imposes an undue financial and administrative burden on the housing provider. However, the investigator must substantiate the housing provider's claim regarding the potential loss of or adverse change to the insurance coverage, by verifying such a claim with the insurance company directly and considering whether comparable insurance, without the restriction, is available in the market.

    Seems pretty clear cut. And before anyone latches on to the "considering whether comparable insurance without the restriction in the marketplace" caveat, anyone who has tried to find insurance covering a dangerous animal or breed of animal will know that there is no comparable coverage for similar prices. You will be paying significantly more for the same coverage to include certain breeds. Most likely you will have to purchase a separate canine coverage policy. This is an undue financial and administrative burden.

    I have comparable coverage on all my buildings with no animal exclusions. The cost was no more - actually quite a bit less - than most others with exclusions.  If you shop around you can find it. I'm not trying to disagree with you because I support this ESA movement. I am only disagreeing with you because I've been down this road with various agencies and so far they have had a defense for everything.

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  • Ryan MurdockPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Here's another way to look at it. If you own a 100 unit property that grosses $1MM/yr in rent but you actually operate at a net loss of $100/yr wouldn't any additional insurance expense  - even $1 - be an undue burden?

    On the other hand, if you have a duplex that nets a positive $5k/yr and obtaining insurance coverage for an attack breed would cost you an extra $4k/yr you're still better off than the guy with 100 units.

    Which one is an undue burden? 

    I grilled the Maine Human Rights Commission on this for months and they were unable to give me a real answer. 

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  • Anthony Wick
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    @Ryan Murdock

    I had a short conversation with the lady over the phone and asked what kind of dogs she has, and you're now asking me if I asked about her husbands race? I believe you owe me an apology. Perhaps you were trying to just be "quippy". If not, your response was out of bounds. And no, asking about somebodies dog isn't even close to what you said. People do not have to come with proper paperwork, and it is not comparable. 

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  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Anthony Wick:

    @Ryan Murdock

    I had a short conversation with the lady over the phone and asked what kind of dogs she has, and you're now asking me if I asked about her husbands race? I believe you owe me an apology. Perhaps you were trying to just be "quippy". If not, your response was out of bounds. And no, asking about somebodies dog isn't even close to what you said. People do not have to come with proper paperwork, and it is not comparable. 

    He was illustrating, correctly by the way, how a federal court would view your questioning of the prospective tenant. 

    If a fair housing tester had called you instead of an actual prospective tenant, you have 2 lines in your conversation that would have lead to fair housing fines.

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  • Ryan MurdockPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Anthony Wick

    Of course you didn’t ask about race nor did I expect that you actually would have. I used that as an example of how seemingly innocent questions can get people in serious hot water, which is how most landlords get in trouble with Fair Housing laws. They usually break the law without even realizing they are doing it and without any malicious intent.

    Asking about race is an obvious no-no...we all know that and which is why it was an appropriate example for this subject. Asking the type of a dog can get you in trouble in similar fashion. No, dogs are not a protected class but it’s probable someone could build and discrimination case against you based on your refusal to rent to them knowing they have a specific breed of support animal. 

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  • Anthony Wick
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    Then I guess somebody needs to post the fair housing standards act for me that shows I am not allowed to discuss what type of dogs somebody may have, without stating that is a criteria for my renting or not renting to them. I would also like to know what the specific fine there is for asking "hey, what kind of dog is that". While also simultaneously not rejecting an application, not rejecting a showing, not rejecting an applicant. Oh, and btw, did we all just dismiss the fact that she specifically said; "I do not have any paperwork for the animals showing they are a therapy animal"???

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  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    7y

    You are also illustrating a lack of an understanding of how the law works. Laws are not just the law as written. Laws eminate from all three branches of the goverment, not just the law as written. The law as written by the legislature is easily discoverable as it is simply there as written. Laws also eminate from the executive branch of the government through regulations, creation of fair housing housing commissions and other agencies, through guidance memos. They also eminate from the courts through their interpretation of said laws, guidance memos, known as case law.

    Fines for fair housing violations on the federal level I believe are $16k for the first offense up to $70k for a third offense I believe.

    The 2 lines in your conversation that would pose an issue with an enforcement agency would be asking do you have the proper paper work (no paperwork is required) and asking the breed of the dog.  Both questions would be viewed as a likely attempt to discriminate based on a federally protected class.

    Take a fair housing class. They are available almost every where in the country on probably a weekly basis. Youll hear the horror stories of simple questions bankrupting people.

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  • Ryan MurdockPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Anthony Wick

    I re-read your original post. Asking what type of “animal” is permissible....I think....as you could deny, say, a therapy gorilla. She volunteered the specific dog breed info. She could still possibly pursue you for discrimination based on an accusation that you didn’t rent to her because of the breed if there’s even a remote chance it’s true so be careful, but I think your original question was okay. 

    I still don’t think you understand that your rental policies on pets - specifically dogs - are squashed by Fair Housing laws and ESA’s. It doesn’t matter what the breed is. Same as it wouldn’t matter what brand of wheel chair somebody rolled in with as you are obligated to allow all of them. With that said,  if the prospective tenant doesn’t have paperwork for any dog that’s an easy out at least for now.

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  • Ryan MurdockPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Russell Brazil What’s the angle that allows ESA/Service/Therapy animals without paperwork? I thought they all had to have at least some sort of documentation even if you can buy it off a shady website.

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  • Greg M.
    Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y

    The ADA defines undue burden as "significant difficulty or expense". No reasonable person would consider $1 to cause significant expense even if you were now operating at a bigger loss, but they would the $4K.

    This is one of those things that different courts will interpret differently. I also assume it would be interpreted different between landlords. An extra $100 may be an undue burden to a property owner with one unit, but an extra $1000 might not be to a large rental corporation with 5000 units.

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