More discussion on therapy animals...
Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
More discussion on therapy animals...
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Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
7y"We consider all applications that meet our rental criteria as units are available and as applications are submitted".
This tells them virtually nothing. I don't think you handled it wrong, I just don't like answering hypothetical questions. Unless you have something to rent, and they're filling out an application, there's nothing to talk about.
Skyline Properties
59 Replies
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes7y
Originally posted by @Ryan Murdock:
@Russell Brazil What’s the angle that allows ESA/Service/Therapy animals without paperwork? I thought they all had to have at least some sort of documentation even if you can buy it off a shady website.
Emotional support animals (not service animals) can be asked to show a prescription from a doctor, health care provider or social worker. Service animals require no such proof. The disability required for a service animal need not be evident either. A good example of a service animal where the disability not being evident is a dog who can sense when a diabetics blood sugar is going to go too low. Right, thats something that would not by appearence be something you could tell the person needs a service animal for, and you cant ask them.
District Invest Group546 Reviews - Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes7y
The Fair Housing Act (FHA) is a federal law that states any person with a mental or physical disability cannot be turned away from housing with their certified service animal or emotional support animal.
Under the Fair Housng Act, a landlord has the right to ask for proper documentation for your emotional support animal to prove you are in need of its service. This document is in the form of an ; which includes licensed therapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists.
What Landlords Cannot Ask You for Under the FHA
When it comes to having an ESA, there are very specific rules and regulations set in place by the FHA to protect your rights. Under this policy the landlord is not allowed to;
- Make you pay any extra rent or deposit for having an ESA
- Cannot ask you about your disability
- Cannot make you register your emotional support animal
- Require the animal to have any specific training
- Refuse to house you because their insurance does not cover ESA’s
Look, I don't have as much experience as some of you. But the info I'm reading would not have me sitting here worried about being fined on a "gotcha" phone call. Also, there was another huge section about possibilities of being fined or sued IF THE LANDLORD REFUSES TO COMPLY AND REFUSES TO RENT TO YOU.
I came up way short of the accusations some of you are making against me. I generally value your input Russell, but you've all but stated I violated the Fair Housing Standards Act today. I'm ok with disagreeing on how far my ignorance went today.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes7y
If youd like a very good example of how some of these simple questions can lead to awful consequences, read up on Linder V. Boston Fair Housing Commission.
Ryan and I are not accusing you of anything. We are warning you about how small innocuous questions can lead to horrible horrible unfair results.
I know at least a dozen people who have had fines and lawsuits over fair housing violations. It is a real issue. There are fair housing testers making these kinds of calls to landlords. I know people who have been caught up in these things.
The most telling thing in the Linder case was the federal court found that discrimination need not have been intended and need not to have actually happened in order for a fair housing violation to have occured.
District Invest Group546 Reviews - Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes7y
Also, since we are all reading and picking apart each others statements, I never asked what kind of breed the dogs were. I asked what type of animal they were. And she then offered up the breed and that they were dogs. I then stated I would consult with my attorney and insurance company. She did not ask me to do so, nor did she ask for a follow up or a showing of the unit.
- Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes7y
Fair enough Russell. I appreciate the warnings, but did feel I was attacked on a couple posts. Perhaps I took those posts a little too literal. I am not infallible when it comes to protecting myself and my reputation.
- Rental Property Investor · TN · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes7y
I think that you should go back and review the type of animals and the requirements for each.
There are 3 types of animals that can have renters requesting housing accommodations.
1. SERVICE animals. These are trained to do a task, you can ask what task they perform, but not about the handicap. You can not ask if its obvious such as a blind person with a dog. By law, these animals can only be miniature horses and dogs. These animals can go anywhere--restaurants, schools, stores, etc. They generally go with the person. They are generally well trained and well behaved. You need to accommodate them if possible...but can say no if you can not accommodate them. eg. miniature horse, apartment is on the second floor, open slat steps, no elevator, you are asked to put in an elevator or redo the steps to accommodate a horse (ramp), but structurally there is no room for a ramp or elevator. You can say no. If you say yes, they have to pay for it. And you can put in restrictions such as dog/horse will releave themselves in this area. Waste will be picked up immediately. Urine will immediately be diluted with 2 gallons of water to prevent the grass from yellowing. They may decide to not rent from you if they do not like the restrictions, but you have the right to decide how to accommodate them.
2. SUPPORT animals. They provide support of some type to the person living in the home. Can just be a critter to hold, hug, be with, not trained to do anything. Can be any critter from a fish to a monkey to a rabbit, or a snake, whatever. Does not need to be trained. They often are left home when the person goes to work, etc. You can ask for paperwork on these animals--not abut the persons handicap, but you can ask for a letter, written document from the prescribing medical professional, just saying that they prescribed the critter. You need to accommodate them if possible...but can say no if you can not accommodate them. And you can decide how to accommodate them.
3. THERAPY animals. Again, any critter will do. These critters are NOT for the renter, but for the renter to take to other locations to provide 'therapy' -love, acceptance, support-- to someone else. Often they visit hospitals, elderly housing, schools (read to a dog). Some of the locations they visit may require a 'good dog' training certificate to protect themselves from liability, but most are not trained to do anything but be petted. They require no paperwork for you and their owners are not a protected class. These critters do NOT, yes, NOT need to be accommodated. The renter does not need them for THEIR day to day lives. They do nothing for the renter's quality of life, but are rather a work or volunteer tool for the renter. You can treat their request like you would if someone wanted to park a semi truck in your rental or run a daycare center in your rental. No is an ok answer. The renter does not need this critter for their day to day existence. The renter is not a protected class.
Anthony, your potential renter is in class 3--no accommodation required!
- Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes7y
It depends on where you are so you need to check local laws. In Oregon we must accept them as long as they have paperwork. We dont get to charge pet rent nor addtil pet deposits.
So check your local laws.
- Attorney · Akron, OH · Member since 2016 · 535 posts · 389 votes7yDo the safe thing and consult a fair housing/disability attorney. There are so many varied answers here that consulting an attorney is the safe route a diligent investor would take.
- Rental Property Investor · Salem, OR · Member since 2017 · 696 posts · 660 votes7y
@Ryan Murdock is 150% right. There is some variance by state but in Oregon.....ANYONE can decide that ANY animal is a ESA...literally the animal itself to write a letter for another animal in its own urine on your carpet and it is fine. There is no getting out of it, at least not in my State. ALSO you CAN NOT ask what their disability is and you can ask for "proper documentation" which they can literally have anyone write (at least in Oregon.)
So, if that is the case then you need to assume ALL units are now pet-friendly and ratchet up the inspections as well as appropriate across the board rent increases (since you can not single out anyone with an animal. There are clearly people who have real needs and clearly also people who are manipulating what was meant to be a law to help those who need it. That is the way things are and being upset about it is going to get you sued and EVEN if you win you are still probably BK due to legal costs.
- 7yRyan MurdockPro MemberRental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
It's not always as cut and dry as getting fined or sued over one simple statement or "illegal" question. Anybody can sue anyone for any reason - justified or not. It's up to the defendant to prove they didn't do anything wrong.
Let's say you deny the ESA pitbull prospect for 100% legit reasons that have nothing to do with the dog. She files a complaint and tries to sue you for discrimination anyways. What will often happen is her attorney or any one of a number of "Fair Housing Advocate" groups will then try and build a case against you.
Part of that case will be demonstrating a pattern of discriminatory behavior from you. They will act as rental prospects and call your rental ads. They will schedule showings and have you meet them at vacant rental properties. What they are trying to do is duplicate the scenario that you are being sued for and hope to catch you demonstrating that same type of discriminatory behavior.
This info will then be used as evidence at your discrimination hearing. If you interacted with the "secret shoppers" legally and didn't further incriminate yourself it stands to help your cause. If, however, they can show that you repeated some or all of the acts that you are being sued for it doesn't bode well for your defense.
I know this sounds like tin foil hat paranoia stuff but it's very real and very common. I've been through it and know several others who have been too. Even if you prevail in court it still costs a fortune in time and money. I do my best to avoid court altogether and @Russell Brazil does too.
- Rental Property Investor · The Vampire State · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes7y
Originally posted by @Ryan Murdock:
I know this sounds like tin foil hat paranoia stuff but it's very real and very common. I've been through it and know several others who have been too. Even if you prevail in court it still costs a fortune in time and money. I do my best to avoid court altogether and @Russell Brazil does too.
This is the exact point I was going to make until I got to this point in the thread.
It still takes time and money to defend a lawsuit you will eventually win. Although some will interpret this as unscrupulous, many landlords just find another way to disqualify the tenant to avoid the whole issue. That is, have the tenant proceed through the application process at a snail's pace until you find someone more suitable or a way to disqualify them. Unfortunately, that's what some landlords are faced with to avoid this rampant abuse of the law that precludes them from managing their asset and running their business in a fair and equitable manner.
- 7yMindy JensenPro MemberBiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
Originally posted by @Anthony Wick:
Asking what type of animal was more out of curiosity, not about discriminating against said animal. She had opened with the fact she doesn't have any sort of certificate/paperwork. She said something about "my ex-husband won't give it to me". I ignored that part.
If the therapy dog is hers, she doesn't need her ex-husband to give her the paperwork for it.
- 7yDan H.Pro MemberInvestor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
Originally posted by @Ryan Murdock:
Originally posted by @Anthony Wick:
Asking what type of animal was more out of curiosity, not about discriminating against said animal. She had opened with the fact she doesn't have any sort of certificate/paperwork. She said something about "my ex-husband won't give it to me". I ignored that part.
Did you ask what race her husband was just out of curiosity? Probably not. It doesn't matter what type of dog it is. Even if your insurance company prohibits it you still have to allow it. I don't like it but that's what you have to do unless you want to get sued and lose.
I am not a lawyer, but I have read the HUD service animal regulations quite a few times.
Your statement is not true. Significant financial impact is a reason to exclude service animals per HUD regulation. So if my current insurance has all my properties at $x and they want a service animal but my insurance to cover the animals is greater than $x then that is a HUD excused means to exclude service animals (it is more specific than what HUD states but basically the regulation excludes significant cost impacts).
Here is the exclusion cut straight from the HUD regulation:
"the FHAct and Section 504 require the housing provider to modify or provide an exception to a "no pets" rule or policy to permit a person with a disability to live with and use an assistance animal(s) in all areas of the premises where persons are normally allowed to go, unless doing so would impose an undue financial and administrative burden or would fundamentally alter the nature of the housing provider's services."
To me having to change insurance carriers and pay more for insurance meets this condition as both a financial and administrative burden.
- 7yRyan MurdockPro MemberRental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
Originally posted by @Dan H.:
Originally posted by @Ryan Murdock:
Originally posted by @Anthony Wick:
Asking what type of animal was more out of curiosity, not about discriminating against said animal. She had opened with the fact she doesn't have any sort of certificate/paperwork. She said something about "my ex-husband won't give it to me". I ignored that part.
Did you ask what race her husband was just out of curiosity? Probably not. It doesn't matter what type of dog it is. Even if your insurance company prohibits it you still have to allow it. I don't like it but that's what you have to do unless you want to get sued and lose.
I am not a lawyer, but I have read the HUD service animal regulations quite a few times.
Your statement is not true. Significant financial impact is a reason to exclude service animals per HUD regulation. So if my current insurance has all my properties at $x and they want a service animal but my insurance to cover the animals is greater than $x then that is a HUD excused means to exclude service animals (it is more specific than what HUD states but basically the regulation excludes significant cost impacts).
Here is the exclusion cut straight from the HUD regulation:
"the FHAct and Section 504 require the housing provider to modify or provide an exception to a "no pets" rule or policy to permit a person with a disability to live with and use an assistance animal(s) in all areas of the premises where persons are normally allowed to go, unless doing so would impose an undue financial and administrative burden or would fundamentally alter the nature of the housing provider's services."
To me having to change insurance carriers and pay more for insurance meets this condition as both a financial and administrative burden.
Curious if anyone here has seen this tested in court and has a real world example of when a financial burden allowed them to skirt this Fair Housing requirement. The answers I got here from ME Human Rights Commission is that changing carriers and paying an unspecified amount more would not be considered a undue hardship for me.
- 7yDan H.Pro MemberInvestor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
Originally posted by @Anthony Wick:
The Fair Housing Act (FHA) is a federal law that states any person with a mental or physical disability cannot be turned away from housing with their certified service animal or emotional support animal.
Under the Fair Housng Act, a landlord has the right to ask for proper documentation for your emotional support animal to prove you are in need of its service. This document is in the form of an ; which includes licensed therapists, psychologists, and psychiatrists.
What Landlords Cannot Ask You for Under the FHA
When it comes to having an ESA, there are very specific rules and regulations set in place by the FHA to protect your rights. Under this policy the landlord is not allowed to;
- Make you pay any extra rent or deposit for having an ESA
- Cannot ask you about your disability
- Cannot make you register your emotional support animal
- Require the animal to have any specific training
- Refuse to house you because their insurance does not cover ESA’s
Look, I don't have as much experience as some of you. But the info I'm reading would not have me sitting here worried about being fined on a "gotcha" phone call. Also, there was another huge section about possibilities of being fined or sued IF THE LANDLORD REFUSES TO COMPLY AND REFUSES TO RENT TO YOU.
I came up way short of the accusations some of you are making against me. I generally value your input Russell, but you've all but stated I violated the Fair Housing Standards Act today. I'm ok with disagreeing on how far my ignorance went today.
What is the source of the 5th bullet? I do not see that covered in the HUD regulation and my RE attorney indicated that it was legit cause to refuse ESA if there was significant financial impact to changing carriers.
https://www.hud.gov/sites/documents/SERVANIMALS_NTCFHEO2013-01.PDF
- Rental Property Investor · Winslow, ME · Member since 2008 · 826 posts · 281 votes7y
@Russell Brazil, At least in Maine, it's ok to require paperwork if it's "not obvious what the animal's purpose is". -- For example, you cannot require paperwork for a typical seeing eye dog because it's obvious what the purpose is. You CAN refuse a therapy pet on the basis of lack of paperwork if its' purpose is "emotional support" or other not easily defined purpose.
There is also a distinction now between "service animals" and "therapy animals" (I can't remember exactly what, but the laws are a little more forgiving for us for emotional support animals vs. true service animals)
Yes, "no pets" is irrelevant although if you can make a case that an existing tenant has such allergies to that animal, that their life would be affected, it's possible to make a case. (It's happened)
It's actually a misdemeanor to pass off "false documentation" for a therapy animal now, so not only is it permissable to ask for it, the prospective tenant can get in legal trouble for giving false documentation.
- 7yDan H.Pro MemberInvestor · Poway, CA · Member since 2015 · 7k+ posts · 8k+ votes
Originally posted by @Ryan Murdock:
Originally posted by @Dan H.:
Originally posted by @Ryan Murdock:
Originally posted by @Anthony Wick:
Asking what type of animal was more out of curiosity, not about discriminating against said animal. She had opened with the fact she doesn't have any sort of certificate/paperwork. She said something about "my ex-husband won't give it to me". I ignored that part.
Did you ask what race her husband was just out of curiosity? Probably not. It doesn't matter what type of dog it is. Even if your insurance company prohibits it you still have to allow it. I don't like it but that's what you have to do unless you want to get sued and lose.
I am not a lawyer, but I have read the HUD service animal regulations quite a few times.
Your statement is not true. Significant financial impact is a reason to exclude service animals per HUD regulation. So if my current insurance has all my properties at $x and they want a service animal but my insurance to cover the animals is greater than $x then that is a HUD excused means to exclude service animals (it is more specific than what HUD states but basically the regulation excludes significant cost impacts).
Here is the exclusion cut straight from the HUD regulation:
"the FHAct and Section 504 require the housing provider to modify or provide an exception to a "no pets" rule or policy to permit a person with a disability to live with and use an assistance animal(s) in all areas of the premises where persons are normally allowed to go, unless doing so would impose an undue financial and administrative burden or would fundamentally alter the nature of the housing provider's services."
To me having to change insurance carriers and pay more for insurance meets this condition as both a financial and administrative burden.
Curious if anyone here has seen this tested in court and has a real world example of when a financial burden allowed them to skirt this Fair Housing requirement. The answers I got here from ME Human Rights Commission is that changing carriers and paying an unspecified amount more would not be considered a undue hardship for me.
I have been threatened with law suits a few times and have not yielded. None went to court. Each time I had a defendable position but this is a tenant friendly state so the outcome likely was not as sure as I was trying to depict.
In reality, I likely had a defendable enough position that I was unlikely to be hit with a large fine even in our tenant friendly state. If the want-to-be tenants consulted an attorney they were likely informed that there was unlikely to be a significant amount awarded and that it was not worth the effort to pursue.
If you do not have a legit reason to deny a service/emotional support animal then 1) accept the animal or 2) make sure that you can justify the denial for some other reason other than the animal (and be able to defend your decision).
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes7y
@Anthony Wick it would be too bad if that ladies phone number got blocked on your phone by accident, so you couldn't take future calls from her.
In all seriousness, are you really considering having two pit bulls in a multifamily property? How do you think that will go over with neighboring tenants?
First of all, don't accept documentation from the applicant for an ESA. All they need to provide you is the name, address, e-mail and phone number of their LOCAL medical care provider that prescribed the ESA. Don't accept letters directly from the applicant, they are generally fabricated or purchased online. Tell them you will mail a request form to their medical provider and they need to return authorization to you. Authorization is simply a letter from the doctor stating John Smith is under my care and requires two pit bull for medical treatment.
Here is why this method is good:
1. Most requests are total BS and there is no medical provider recommending the animal.
2. If they do give a name, it will take time for you to mail the letter to the provider and time for them to return it.
3. Medical provider must state "two pit bull" are required. When you solicit the provider for the letter make sure they understand they are certifying that the specific breed is required. If something goes wrong, Dr. John Smith is on record being the one who approved it. Most Doctors won't recommend two pit bull.
- Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes7y
Update: Nobody with animals, therapy or not, has requested a showing or an application. After I explained my other requirements for renting (600 credit score, no felonies, no evictions, $40 application fee per adult, 3 times rental income, full security deposit up front, etc.) some people seem to never get back to me for that showing time.
"I think my boyfriend might have an eviction from a looooong time ago (generally 3-5 years)". But, that's another topic for another day.
So, one person has applied, and may be accepted for Dec 1. She has no pets.
- Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes7y
@JD Martin has the correct response. Landlords need to smarten up and ignore the issue entirely. When a applicant applies they should be made aware you have a no animal policy. If they have a service or emotional animal you simply continue taking applications and reject their application for a more qualified one. Never discuss the animal.
When screening and accepting a applicant you make it very clear that you do not allow animals and that if they bring one in under the guise of a support or emotional after the fact you will have grounds for eviction for lying on the application regarding having animals.
It is much easier to keep them out then get rid of them after the fact. For this reason it is necessary to only offer M2M leases to new tenants. If a existing tenant does bring one in do not make a big deal about, ask for the paper work and if it's off the internet simply non renew their M2M lease and let them try to fight it. If it is not legitimate they will lose.
- Flipper/Rehabber · Bakersfield, CA · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes7y
My Support Animal....
- Rental Property Investor · Whittier, CA · Member since 2014 · 324 posts · 268 votes7y
Service Animals are defined by the Americans with Disabilities Act, and as Lynnette E says, are only dogs and miniature horses (although some provisions only apply to dogs after 2011). You cannot require documentation from them, but you can ask two and only two questions about them:
1 Is the dog a service animal required because of a disability?
2 What work or task has the dog been trained to perform?
You cannot ask about the disability. You cannot ask for documentation about its training, or ask for it to demonstrate its training. You cannot charge "pet rent" or an increased deposit. You cannot exclude a particular animal because you think they may present a danger to others based on your experience (ie: you know that pitbulls can be aggressive), but you CAN deny a particular animal if they act aggressively or present a threat. You CAN require that the resident provide documentation about local registration, licensing, and vaccination requirements.
If we receive a query from a tenant, our default response is "We comply with all state and federal laws pertaining to service animals". We have experienced applicants who ask about pets and then the pet turns into a "emotional support animal".
- Flipper/Rehabber · Winston Salem, NC · Member since 2018 · 33 posts · 24 votes7y@Sam Shueh Sam it’s not as easy as saying no pets. A service animal or emotional support animal is not considered a pet. I work for an airline and we can all day long say no to pets but a service animal or emotional support we have to walk on egg shells with. It can be a stupid fine like $27,000 if we mess that up in anyway. Anyone who really has one for real , call it a pet and watch what they say. They will correct you before you blink your eye.
- Lincoln, NE · Member since 2014 · 4 posts · 3 votes7y
I just had a prospective tenant apply. He filled out he application and checked no to the question that said do you intend to have at this residence. Then the next question is if so what kind of pet and how many. I ok him for the 1 bedroom apt. 8 hours later I receive a text Hi I just wanted you to know I have an emotional pet with( attach picture of 75 pound pitbull) Since he lied can I deny him? I would deny anyone else caught lying on their application...
- Property Manager · Orlando, FL · Member since 2018 · 15 posts · 4 votes7y@Anthony Wick as far as my understand you can not ask what is the disability. Now if it is a service animal and they have documents for the pet and resonable accommodations for the service animal you can not deny them due to their breed because they are providing a service.
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