How long of a time frame does a landlord have to remove ice/snow?

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How long of a time frame does a landlord have to remove ice/snow?

Samuel J Claeson
Rental Property Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2017 · 35 posts · 8 votes

Hello BP members,

I was not able to immediately salt the driveway this morning, and I received a quite threatening text from my tenant about the "icy" driveway ("...my brother in law is a lawyer!....").   I personally did not feel it was unsafe to walk on the driveway or sidewalk, but I immediately called my handyman to see if he could help salt the driveway because I was already at work (shout out to Proper Upkeep).  While texting my tenants back, I imagined a court judge was looking over my shoulder, and told them that "someone would be there to salt the driveway in 45 minutes and to wait to walk on the driveway until it is confirmed that the sidewalk and driveway are salted. If you must walk on the driveway or sidewalk be cautious."  

My question is this: how much time does a landlord have to remove snow/ice from a rental property?  Is it 24 hours? Is it immediately?

I know it would be best to ask a lawyer, but I'm curious about other landlords/property managers that provide snow/ice removal. 

Thanks in advance!

Sam

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Daniel Schiller
Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 91 posts · 76 votes
7y
@Patrick M. Sell your properties and move south. This entire thread is making me cold.
10Reply
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  • Jessica Zolotorofe
    Attorney · NJ · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 794 votes
    7y

    In most places it is "as soon as is reasonable" which means almost nothing. Check your local ordinance. That should provide some guidance. 

    1Reply
  • Katie Stewart
    Specialist · Fort Collins, CO · Member since 2018 · 557 posts · 191 votes
    7y

    @Samuel J Claeson what does your lease say? Does your lease specifically state you are responsible for salting the driveway?

    0Reply
  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    7y

    @Samuel J Claeson , My town has an ordinance that the sidewalks must be cleared 24 hours AFTER it stops snowing.

    This seems fair and reasonable to me. 

    Can you give them some salt so they can take care of it if they need to leave before you get there? Note: Salt is super corrosive. Our landlord leases prohibit the use of salt and/or ice melt.

    [email protected]Podcast Guest on Show #261
    BiggerPockets
    1Reply
  • Patrick Soukup
    Rental Property Investor · Fort Collins, CO · Member since 2015 · 273 posts · 127 votes
    7y

    Doesn't matter what the lease says. Doesn't matter what the city says. Property liability cases do and will happen. If someone slips and falls on your property, you could have JUST shoveled, ice melted, used a hair dryer and laid a non slip mat right in front of the step your tenant took before the slip. It's your fault, it's on your property and you'll get sued. 

    Maybe that's a little dark, but it is the truth. We live in a litigious society and those are the unfortunate facts. 

    That all being said, best practices are to follow what the city requires on public sidewalks (ours is 24 hours from stopping snowing). Document when you do it and if you used ice melt. OR pay a company and provide them the guidelines and help alleviate some of the liability. Even though most contracts you sign with a snow removal company will "hold the company harmless" of any slip and falls, that's somewhat exculpatory language and is easily overcome.  

    Document, document, document. 

    2Reply
  • Samuel J Claeson
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2017 · 35 posts · 8 votes
    7y

    @Jessica Zolotorofe thank you for the advice.

    @Katie Stewart Yes, it is my responsibility as the landlord to remove ice/snow.

    @Mindy Jensen I actually called the city offices and and am awaiting an answer on what the code/ordinance is for ice/snow removal.  I guess I wouldn't be surprised if it was 24 hours.  

    Providing the tenants with salt is great advice and I'll be sure to do that.  Do you provide sand as a substitute to salt?  And is it as effective as salt?  Also, I love the podcast!!!

    @Patrick Soukup I think you speak a lot of truth in your post, and it's unfortunate that it can be such a "dark" component about owning rental properties. I appreciate your insight and will definitely keep this in the back of mind with snow removal, as well as many other aspects to property management. Do you recommend LLC's to limit liability?

    0Reply
  • Jeff Bleck
    Member since 2018 · 3 posts · 2 votes
    7y

    Check you county or city regulation, each have different laws. In NYC they are very specific:

    "How long do I have to clean the sidewalk? If the snow stops falling between: • 7:00 a.m. and 4:49 p.m. - you must clear within four hours • 5:00 p.m. and 8:59 p.m. - you must clear within fourteen hours Example: If the snow stops falling at 7:00 p.m., the owner, lessee, tenant, occupant or other person in charge of any lot or building has until 9:00 a.m. the following morning to clear. • 9:00 p.m. and 6:59 a.m. - you must clear by 11:00 a.m. the next day"

    Source: https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/dsny/docs/about_snow-r...

    1Reply
  • Patrick M.
    Rental Property Investor · Red Bank, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    24 hours here.

    I did that stuff for a while, now it is far easier to pay a service, it is peanuts compared to the hassle.

    I am insured, so if someone slips- they slip, an LLC is not going to provide me any greater protection.

    Personally I would print out the threatening text and draft a notice to cease immediately. Next time I saw them I would verbally let them know that you are unlikely to renew their lease.

    I realize I am in the minority here.

    0Reply
  • Daniel Schiller
    Rental Property Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 91 posts · 76 votes
    7y
    @Patrick M. Sell your properties and move south. This entire thread is making me cold.
    10Reply
  • John Lambert
    Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2018 · 15 posts · 15 votes
    7y
    @Samuel J Claeson in your lease do you handle all snow shoveling, grass cutting, etc..? If so you should include something that says how long after a storm, event, etc.. the driveway will be cleared. You need good insurance anyhow but I'd be especially sure I had good insurance if I could be held liable from someone slipping on the ice. If they were responsible for snow/ice removal they could likely still sue you but at least you might be a little more at ease. So winter has arrived in Minnesota! Wonderful.
    0Reply
  • Bjorik Mutize
    Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 530 posts · 398 votes
    7y
    @Samuel J Claeson I’ve had same day snow/ice removal service since I’ve started, so this is actually a good question you and I should both look up since we invest in St.Paul! Could be 24 hours or within reasonable time frame?
    0Reply
  • Tim SwierczekPro Member
    Lender · White Bear Township, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Samuel J Claeson Minnesota has no statute that addresses a time frame for snow and ice removal.  Minneapolis has an ordinance for all residents not just landlords (see below).  I would inform them of the ordinance and remind them that all walkable areas in Minnesota during Winter months can be slippery.  Provide them with the ability to spread salt.  I agree with @Mindy Jensen that its corrosive, but it's still probably a must in MN.  Lastly, DO NOT do as suggested and threaten not to renew them. MN law does have a statue on that matter and the penalties are steep.  Statue below MPLS snow ordinance. 

    Minneapolis Ordinance requires that property owners clear sidewalks after the end of a snowfall within

    • 24 hours for single family homes and duplexes
    • Four daytime hours for apartments, commercial buildings and all other properties (daytime hours begin at 8 am)

    When you shovel snow and clear ice

    • Shovel the sidewalks on all sides of your property, the full width of the sidewalk down to the bare pavement.
    • Remove all ice from sidewalks.
    • Pile snow into your yard and boulevard. It’s against the law to shovel snow into streets and alleys.
    • If you have a corner property, clear pedestrian ramps at the street corners and crosswalks to the street gutter. You are not required to clear snow ridges or piles left by the plows beyond the gutter. City crews will make an effort to return to do this work as quickly as possible, but with some 16,000 corners to clear across the City, it may take a while. However, your neighbors would appreciate it if you could clear the pile, or at least an opening sooner to help shorten the wait and provide a clear passage.

    https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/504B.441

    504B.441 RESIDENTIAL TENANT MAY NOT BE PENALIZED FOR COMPLAINT.

    A residential tenant may not be evicted, nor may the residential tenant's obligations under a lease be increased or the services decreased, if the eviction or increase of obligations or decrease of services is intended as a penalty for the residential tenant's or housing-related neighborhood organization's complaint of a violation. The burden of proving otherwise is on the landlord if the eviction or increase of obligations or decrease of services occurs within 90 days after filing the complaint, unless the court finds that the complaint was not made in good faith. After 90 days the burden of proof is on the residential tenant.

    ~Tim

    5Reply
  • Ryan Schroeder
    Rental Property Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2016 · 46 posts · 37 votes
    7y

    Samuel, most cities/suburbs in the Twin Cities require removal of snow accumulation (generally greater than an inch or two) within 24 hours.  That has nothing to do with slip and fall liability however.  Even if the city ordinance does not address icy conditions you have a responsibility to maintain a safe condition.  We apply ice melt liberally and we leave containers around our properties for the use of the tenants as well and we inform them that ANY time they feel ice is a hazard they should apply as much ice melt as they feel is necessary

    0Reply
  • Patrick M.
    Rental Property Investor · Red Bank, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Tim Swierczek is there a right to automatic renewal? I don’t threaten my tenants, nor did I suggest that, but I do verbally inform them when I am considering not renewing a lease. The law requires that I give formal notice if I intend to follow through on non-renew.

    Is a non- renewal considered an eviction in Minneapolis? 

    I don’t suffer threats from tenants... as I said, I am in the minority.

    0Reply
  • Tim SwierczekPro Member
    Lender · White Bear Township, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Patrick M. you are not in a minority.  Most experienced landlords do not suffer threats from tenants.  I include myself in that group.  That being said, MN law does not allow a landlord to evict or create an increase of obligations or decrease of services intended as a penalty for the residential tenant's complaint of a violation. The burden of proving otherwise is on the landlord if the eviction or increase of obligations or decrease of services occurs within 90 days after filing the complaint.

    No, a non-renewal is not considered an eviction in Minneapolis, but it can be considered a retaliation against a valid complaint and our courts are very tenant friendly.  


    I don't know would be considered a violation but the best way to test it is to threaten non-renewal at that moment.  It's really not smart in our state.  There are other ways to handle the situation that would not put the landlord at risk of violation of state statute 504B.441.

    1Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    7y

    @Patrick M.

    "I realize I am in the minority here."

    I don't think you are in the minority at all. If we step back and take a closer look it is obvious that Samuel is dealing with an A HOLE  tenant. This tennat sounds extremely entitled in his approach to dealing with daily life and has clearly zero respect for others. He most likely views landlords as lower life forms.

    As long as the effort is made on a consistent bases to remove snow and maintain the property there is little to worry about. Anything else is the purpose of having insurance.

    The only difference between you and me is I would not be giving him a heads up about non renewing his lease. I would however very much enjoy seeing the look on his face when I hand him a bag of sand. If he proves to be overly entitled and arrogant going forward he would be gone. Life is too short to put up with A HOLE tenants.

    0Reply
  • Sam Shueh
    Real Estate Agent · Cupertino, CA · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    Should be as soon as needed. I used to call property management company that the custodian was not on the ball, they explained the regular guy was ill but will get someone right away. If someone slips landlord will have a huge medical bill.


    0Reply
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    7y

    @Samuel J Claeson if it is single family, I require them to put down ice melt. If it is multifamily, I get over as fast as possible. I also leave ice melt in a shaker by main entry door and tell tenants to apply if they find it unsafe. So in that case where your tenant complained, I would have told them to throw it down themselves.

    One other thing I do is apply ice melt very heavily. It actually soaks into the concrete and works in the future. Yes, it reduces the life of concrete, but marginally and it is worth it for safety.

    Tenants can technically sue you for ice that appeared 10 minutes earlier, but a court is going to apply reasonable standards. That is where providing ice melt at the property will help you because it shows an extra effort to help tenants address issues. 

    0Reply
  • John Woodrich
    Flipper/Rehabber · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    City ordinances typically only cover maintenance of sidewalks.

    Your personal liability is to remove snow/ice before someone gets hurt.  That being said, someone could slip on wet ground and get hurt.

    As a landlord it is your responsibility to remove any appearence of negligence on your part. You do this by consistently maintaining safe walkways.

    0Reply
  • Patrick M.
    Rental Property Investor · Red Bank, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Tim Swierczek Informing a tenant that you may not be renewing the lease is not a threat. No more than any formal notice would be.

    But I have found it to be an extremely effective way to condition some (inherited) tenants. As crass as it may sound, for some, you must demonstrate who the alpha dog is. And it sure as hell ain’t a tenant that contacts me in a threatening way.

    This does not run afoul of any law. There is no threat.

    I am in by far the most tenant friendly state there is. My tenants have a right to renewal. That has not stopped me from using this as an extremely effective way to get them in line. My new tenants appreciate having a building run by the landlord and not by some dirtbag tenant who strikes fear into his heart with a text message.

    I also make sure that any prospective tenant understands that a background check will show evidence of any matter brought in landlord tenant court no matter who initiates it. That is also not a threat- but I hope it is very educational.

    0Reply
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    7y

    @Patrick M. I agree to not taking threats from tenants, but in the case of a safety situation it is a bad idea to respond with a notice of non-renewal. The response to any safety issue should always be, thank you for reporting the issue, we will remedy as quickly as possible. You also want to tell them to avoid the safety hazard and you want to confirm in writing after the safety hazard has been corrected.

    I would then address the legal threat as a separate issue at a later time and I would do it verbally. I would explain, "As a landlord, I will always remedy safety issues as quickly as reasonably possible. However, threatening legal action before giving me time to remedy is not acceptable. Next time you mention an attorney, all communications with me will cease and you will be contacted by my attorney. I just want to be straight forward about my rules and if that doesn't work for you, no hard feelings, we will just plan for non-renewal when your lease comes due."

    1Reply
  • Patrick M.
    Rental Property Investor · Red Bank, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Joe Splitrock Please reread my initial response. Nowhere did I say remedy this situation with a notice of non renewal. I said to print out the threatening text and issue a notice to cease. An extraordinarily effective method to get the tenant to stop unruly behavior. It is to cease that behavior and put them on notice that you will not put up with it. (And to start a record of their behavior)

    Then I said to verbally indicate to them next time you see them that you are unlikely to renew- not a formal notice- a warning shot over the bow.

    I never threaten my tenants. And I would never have any issue with a tenant informing me of any condition on the property. In fact in post after post where people say to charge a tenant for maintenance calls I say heck no, I welcome them.

    What we are talking about here is a tenant that threatened a landlord- my response was to that.

    0Reply
  • Chris LumLee
    Investor · Honolulu, HI · Member since 2017 · 187 posts · 108 votes
    7y

    I'd say @Jessica Zolotorofe has it right. But I'd ask them to do it right away as soon as they can because that stuff can become a real liability issue. I don't know about you but I'm not up for getting sued anytime soon. You know?

    0Reply
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Patrick M.:

    @Joe Splitrock Please reread my initial response. Nowhere did I say remedy this situation with a notice of non renewal. I said to print out the threatening text and issue a notice to cease. An extraordinarily effective method to get the tenant to stop unruly behavior. It is to cease that behavior and put them on notice that you will not put up with it. (And to start a record of their behavior)

    Then I said to verbally indicate to them next time you see them that you are unlikely to renew- not a formal notice- a warning shot over the bow.

    I never threaten my tenants. And I would never have any issue with a tenant informing me of any condition on the property. In fact in post after post where people say to charge a tenant for maintenance calls I say heck no, I welcome them.

    What we are talking about here is a tenant that threatened a landlord- my response was to that.

     Maybe this is a regional thing. I have never heard of people using a notice to cease in my state and when I Google search the term, it comes up mostly with NJ results. It sounds like the notice needs to reference the rule or regulation in the lease that was violated. How would you word this? My point is the notice could be viewed as retaliatory for reporting a safety hazard. 

    0Reply
  • Thomas S.
    Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    7y

    @Joe Splitrock

    http://www.simplifyem.com/forms/south-dakota-notic...

    0Reply
  • Patrick M.
    Rental Property Investor · Red Bank, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    The notice is to cease in this case is to cease the harassing and "threatening" behavior on the part of the tenant.

    "I received a quite threatening text from my tenant about the "icy" driveway ("...my brother in law is a lawyer!....")."

    I do not play that game and a notice to cease would have been immediate. A tenant cannot challenge a notice to cease- but it does say that a notice to quit will be next.

    You are wrapped up in the issue of the driveway- he has already taken care of that. Now it is time to correct this tenant's behavior.

    A notice to cease can't be considered retaliatory because all you are say is that I am not going to allow you to harass and threaten me.

    0Reply
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