Basement seepage in Cleveland Rental_$36,000 estimate WTH?

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Basement seepage in Cleveland Rental_$36,000 estimate WTH?

Tim Greenfield
Rental Property Investor · Wiesbaden, Hesse · Member since 2016 · 85 posts · 32 votes

I purchased home in Euclid in Summer of 17 and it has been cash flowing nicely and it is in a nice neighborhood where I would even want to live. It was a complete rehab and the provider stated that there were repairs done to the basement. The property inspector noted the wall as having been recently repaired and some of the block had white efflorescence and there was some visible signs of water intrusion from stains on the wall. He was unable to ascertain the extent or how often it occurs but stated that the area should be monitored and repaired as needed. Fast forward to this week and I get an email from the PM that the tenant stated that due to the rainy season" they are having water coming into the basement. Further, that the basement needs waterproofing and the block is changing color possibly mold." 

She sends a vendor out there who gives a quote for $36,094. The GC stated that the wall is is wet from but not other entry is noted. I call this BS. I have never had a basement nor lived in Cleveland so I am looking for some advice. I did walk this house prior to purchase. The tenant has been in there since summer of 17 and never called this out before. I have reviewed the property inspection and just noticed that it does not have a sump pump so I will install this and also a battery backup as I have in my other houses in the Cleveland area.

Does anyone have any experience with this? I am assuming with the area and the age of the houses that this is common and only occurs when there is heavy rain. At what point do you consider a complete excavation as this contractor is suggesting? Are there more economical alternatives to sealing a wall without using a backhoe and a building foundation excavation? This is also a GC not a basement expert.

V/r

Tim

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
7y

ya you need a second opinion.. basements weep just a fact. for rentals.. I don't like basements personally..

but in these older areas of the NOrth east most houses have them.. 

@James Wise  Jim Is Mr. Cleveland he can probably recommend someone else to look at it.. Your Pm should also know this is not realisitc

36k to me means the basement is caving in.. 

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y

    ya you need a second opinion.. basements weep just a fact. for rentals.. I don't like basements personally..

    but in these older areas of the NOrth east most houses have them.. 

    @James Wise  Jim Is Mr. Cleveland he can probably recommend someone else to look at it.. Your Pm should also know this is not realisitc

    36k to me means the basement is caving in.. 

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  • Mike McCarthy
    Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    @Tim Greenfield is it a finished basement?

    There are a handful of ways to help water penetration. Easiest is to make sure all the downspouts are ejecting water 4-6 feet away from the foundation and there’s a slope away. Sometimes a few pieces of gutter and some dirt is all you need.

    If it’s more than that, The best waterproofing is to dig down from the outside, add waterproof membrane to the exterior of the foundation, then add some drain pipes on the exterior as it’s back filled. It can be expensive, but is a 100% fix. (Depends on plantings, patios, etc. if just grass, it shouldn’t be that expensive)

    As you said, a sump pump can help, but not always. Depends on where the water is actually coming from.

    Anyway - things to consider... and definitely need a few more opinions.

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  • David Krulac
    Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    @Tim Greenfield  Absolutely get multiple estimates.  We had a wet basement, so much so that it needed TWO sump pumps.  We got estimates as high as $30,000 for interior basement waterproofing.  We settled on the $6,000 vendor, who cut the concrete floor around the interior peremeter installed a perforated pipe and gravel leaking to the TWO sump pumps and re-concreted the floor where cut.

    There are three reasons for water in basement:

    1. Gutters as @Mike McCarthy says, make sure they drain water away from building

    2. Grading make sure the grading from the house outward is downhill sloped.  I seen houses where years after construction the ground has settled around the foundation where the original construction excavation was done, and no new ground was added.

    3. Ground water, that was the problem with the house above with the TWO sump.  sometimes there are under ground streams that penetrate the house.  In another situation we bought a old farm house.  There was a stream that flowed through the basement and they built a concrete channel from one end of the house to the other to contain the stream.  And they had the washer an dryer in the basement up on pallets.

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @David Krulac:

    @Tim Greenfield  Absolutely get multiple estimates.  We had a wet basement, so much so that it needed TWO sump pumps.  We got estimates as high as $30,000 for interior basement waterproofing.  We settled on the $6,000 vendor, who cut the concrete floor around the interior peremeter installed a perforated pipe and gravel leaking to the TWO sump pumps and re-concreted the floor where cut.

    There are three reasons for water in basement:

    1. Gutters as @Mike McCarthy says, make sure they drain water away from building

    2. Grading make sure the grading from the house outward is downhill sloped.  I seen houses where years after construction the ground has settled around the foundation where the original construction excavation was done, and no new ground was added.

    3. Ground water, that was the problem with the house above with the TWO sump.  sometimes there are under ground streams that penetrate the house.  In another situation we bought a old farm house.  There was a stream that flowed through the basement and they built a concrete channel from one end of the house to the other to contain the stream.  And they had the washer an dryer in the basement up on pallets.

     the underground stream running through the basement seems like it would add value :)  you could do all sorts of cool things with that as a water feature. !!!

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  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 31k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    7y

    @Tim Greenfield @Jay Hinrichs

    Bummer Tim. Here are my thoughts on the situation.

    1. As for referrals Holton-Wise is a General Contractor so we handle all of our construction in house, so i've got no outside referrals for ya & you'd have to be a Property Management client of ours for our team to handle the repairs. Don't want to get into that process any further as it'd violate Bigger Pockets forum advertising rules.
    2. If you've got to do exterior waterproofing your looking at around $100/ft-$125/ft. Cheaper alternatives could involve any combination of fixing the gutters & downspouts, exterior grading, drylock paint, sump pumps, french drains & dehumidifiers.
    3. Never let the tenant coordinate, recommend or hire their own contractor. That is your job. The tenant should have zero involvement as to the contractors who are hired to work on your property.

    If you've got an unfinished basement it doesn't need to be bone dry per-say. Moisture in the basements are common in the Cleveland area due to a high water table & a housing stock that was mostly built 50-90 years ago. I'd say spending $36k is probably unnecessary & cost prohibitive due to relatively low value of your property.

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  • David Krulac
    Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    @Jay Hinrichs I didn't consider it a plus and neither did most buyers.  It was always damp and humid, and even though the house was over 100 years old, I didn't think the constant dampness was good for the timbers of the house.

    It was an interesting property, the owner had moved there when she was 12 with her parents and was still living there under a life estate and was 98 years old when we bought the place.  Not many people can say that they have lived in the same house for 86 years!  The life estate scared off any competition when we bought, and when we sold the life estate tenant had moved out to a nursing home.

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @David Krulac:

    @Jay Hinrichs I didn't consider it a plus and neither did most buyers.  It was always damp and humid, and even though the house was over 100 years old, I didn't think the constant dampness was good for the timbers of the house.

    It was an interesting property, the owner had moved there when she was 12 with her parents and was still living there under a life estate and was 98 years old when we bought the place.  Not many people can say that they have lived in the same house for 86 years!  The life estate scared off any competition when we bought, and when we sold the life estate tenant had moved out to a nursing home.

     Check out. Jarvis winery in Napa. They have a really cool stream running through their cave and made it a focal point   Of Course when u sell your tech firm in the 80s for 1 b you can indulge. But it’s the coolest winery I have ever seen 

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  • Caleb Heimsoth
    Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    7y

    @Tim Greenfield I had a similar issue on a rental I had in Cleveland, although yours sounds potentially worse.

    In my case there was moisture on the wall in the basement and what we did to fix it was dry lock the basement which cost 600 bucks. Yours sounds worse since there is color discoloration and actual water. I’m not sure what the exact solution is but it probably shouldn’t cost 36k.

    I had another draining issue on another rental in memphis. Wasn’t a basement though. They added drainage to the back yard, cost 900 dollars.

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  • Caleb Heimsoth
    Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    7y

    I’ll tag @Jad Boudiab. He’s from Cleveland, maybe he can provide more insight as well

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  • Grant Rothenburger
    Investor · Taylor Mill, KY · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 964 votes
    7y

    @Tim Greenfield Definitely get more opinions/estimates.

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  • Eric Wagner
    Rental Property Investor · Sheridan, OR · Member since 2011 · 33 posts · 23 votes
    7y

    I've had great success in drylocking basements.  Also making sure the gutters are working and the pipes the gutters drain into are clear of debris and roots.  One house I had to haul in dirt to get the slope right but if the walls are not falling in then a complete excavation seems totally unnecessary. 

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  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @David Krulac:

    @Jay Hinrichs I didn't consider it a plus and neither did most buyers.  It was always damp and humid, and even though the house was over 100 years old, I didn't think the constant dampness was good for the timbers of the house.

    It was an interesting property, the owner had moved there when she was 12 with her parents and was still living there under a life estate and was 98 years old when we bought the place.  Not many people can say that they have lived in the same house for 86 years!  The life estate scared off any competition when we bought, and when we sold the life estate tenant had moved out to a nursing home.

     what a coincidence you would be talking about a life estate today.. I am in one hour going to a project were I am building 3 spec homes in portlandia I bought it 10 years ago and while I did not give a formal life estate.. I let the lady live there for free until she passed.. which was 10 years..  I paid 80k for it.. no income lots alone today are worth 150k each plus profit on house.. Not sure if that was best use of my 80k but it felt good at the time.. the lady got to live her life out in her home she had lived in for 50 years. Once she had passed I did my land use to 3 houses demo'd the old one.. and off we go.. 

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  • Tim Greenfield
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Wiesbaden, Hesse · Member since 2016 · 85 posts · 32 votes
    7y

    @Caleb Heimsoth- Thanks

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  • David Krulac
    Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    @Jay Hinrichs We didn't have to wait 10 years.  There was this farmer/businessman who accumulated a dozen farms through like estates.  He approached widows and agreed to let them live out their remaining years in their homes.  The one we bought, he had bought 25 years earlier and had been using the farm for spreading manure and planting crops.  Then HE passed away before the widows.  We bought the 50 acre farm and started a subdivision plan which takes about a year to get all the approvals.  during that time the widow continued to live in the house and even after we got approvals and started selling off the lots.  While others saw the life estate as a negative, we did not.  The widow got to live there as long as she wanted, we got the house occupied through the approval process, and we were never planning on demoing the house anyway.

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  • Jad Boudiab
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 255 posts · 248 votes
    7y

    @Tim Greenfield It's not uncommon for small seepage at times, but it is uncommon to see a $36k estimate to remedy it. Somewhere along the line, someone forgot you were a real estate investor.

    It went from an incoming work order of "they are having water coming into the basement. Further, that the basement needs waterproofing and the block is changing color possibly mold." to a $36,094 repair estimate. First thing, get multiple professionals' take on the situation, which it seems like you're doing. It's tough to tell without seeing it, but there are different causes that can lead to this.

    - First and most common issue is some seepage around corners of house coming from the downspouts, poor grading, or a clogged or damaged gutter that's overflowing near the foundation wall. This is the easiest to fix.

    - Second, you may have a cracked clay drain pipe that sits outside of the walls, sometimes mid-way up the basement wall, where you'll notice a leak or efflorescence developing on the lower half of the wall. This is common for homes in the Greater Cleveland area built over 50 years ago, the damage is usually caused by tree roots. This has to be dug up and replaced, nothing too expensive.

    - Third, if you actually have water seepage throughout the basement that requires you to excavate and add waterproofing membrane, then you're talking big expense, but $36,000 is too high. Get some more estimates. Check out Ohio State Waterproofing, reputable company, their info and work is easy to find online.

    If I had to guess, 85% of the times we get this call, the issue is minor and rather inexpensive. Ask your PM to investigate further, address quickly, and provide the tenant with a dehumidifier.

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  • Dan Tyson
    Member since 2018 · 4 posts · 2 votes
    7y

    @Tim Greenfield

    Joe Galubic Waterproofing

    tell him Dan Tyson from Remax Edge sent you. He's local and did great work for two of my clients WELL under what we thought the cost would be.

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  • Wesley Davis
    Contractor · Asheville, NC · Member since 2017 · 51 posts · 29 votes
    7y

    @Tim Greenfield  Hey Tim.  How are the gutters on the home?  It has been my experience that if the gutters are bad, or clogged, and not working properly, that can cause basement leaks.  If they are clogged or just bad in general, I'd try cleaning them or replacing them if it comes to that.  Also, see if the surface water is running away from the home.  If the surface water is running into the home, or if the gutters are bad, or both, those are two easy and MUCH cheaper fixes.  This, in my experience, has helped with 90% of the water problems that I have come across in basements 

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  • Tim Greenfield
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Wiesbaden, Hesse · Member since 2016 · 85 posts · 32 votes
    7y

    @Dan Tyson Thanks

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  • Tim Greenfield
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Wiesbaden, Hesse · Member since 2016 · 85 posts · 32 votes
    7y

    @Wesley Davis Thanks- I am overseas and trying to handle this with the PM. Yes it has gutters and as a matter of fact they were cleaned out when I bought them. I will see what I find out

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  • Mike S.
    Rental Property Investor · Huntsville, AL · Member since 2013 · 419 posts · 323 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Mike McCarthy:

    @Tim Greenfield is it a finished basement?

    If it’s more than that, The best waterproofing is to dig down from the outside, add waterproof membrane to the exterior of the foundation, then add some drain pipes on the exterior as it’s back filled. It can be expensive, but is a 100% fix. (Depends on plantings, patios, etc. if just grass, it shouldn’t be that expensive)

    Yes, yes, yes.  Exterior waterproofing is the only waterproofing.  If anyone tells you different, they're an idiot or a liar. So many contractors have moved to "systems" that involve inside work because the can overcharge for them, yet not solve the water ingress. Depending on your basement and soil content, it should cost $6,000-$10,000. 

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  • Alan Lay
    Florence KY · Member since 2019 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    7y

    Block foundations just suck. I used to waterproof basements. The dig up a perimeter and install drain tile with sump pump is the most reliable fix. That's most likely MILDEW, no mold. Have the basement fixed, clean the walls with a bleach spray, put in a dehumidifier and open heat/cooling vents to air out the basement. if that doesn't completely stop it, drylok the walls.

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  • Tim Greenfield
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Wiesbaden, Hesse · Member since 2016 · 85 posts · 32 votes
    7y

    @Wesley Davis Thank you for the advice!!

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