Rental Property Investor · Columbia, SC · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
All:
My handyman just called me and said that a floor joist was split underneath one of my college student rentals. Five guys live there and had friends over for the Super Bowl on Sunday night. They claim it was only "20-30 people" and they weren't jumping. They did not report this until Tuesday afternoon. I imagine this is going to be a several thousand dollar fix (3k-5k?) so I would like to try and collect. They, of course, will deny that they've done anything wrong based on my experience.
Can anybody provide any insight on what you think happened based on the pictures below? The property was built in 1965 if that makes a difference.
Naturally I am biased but do not believe them. However, in a he said/she said situation with college kids and their grizzly bear parents things can get heated and nasty very quickly so I want to know what kind of case I have here.
I will have dealt and seen a lot over all the years I have rented to students but this is a first for me.
Rental Property Investor · Birmingham, MI · Member since 2016 · 60 posts · 71 votes
7y
No. I don't believe the tenants broke the "joist." That's not a joist BTW. It's a beam that was unsupported and there is a tear where it came apart. Likely because there were too many fasteners in close proximity. If it would have split because of weight, jumping the lumber would have long "fingers" on each side of the break instead of being torn like a sheet of loose leaf. - Said a Licensed Builder.
Now take this with a grain of salt because I, like most other builders, can put it together fantastic but rarely do we see how stuff gets broken. I'd personally be looking out for numero uno, amigo. Call your insurance company because the adjuster is going to have more experience then any peanut gallery. Then call the local building department to see if the home is occupy-able. Base your next steps from the adjusters recommendation. Builder's and handymen are not going to be very credible in court because their we are the equivalent of a tow truck driver at an accident scene.
Columbia, SC · Member since 2015 · 88 posts · 55 votes
7y
@Will Gaston I have limited construction knowledge but based on the last picture, it looks like there were a lot more than 20-30 people hanging out in that area of the house. I also don't think that number of people could damage a joist unless it was already weak/rotting which it doesn't look like it was; but you should get a professional opinion written up on the extent of the damage and present this to the tenants if you try to recover.
Rental Property Investor · Columbia, SC · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
7y
Thanks @Michael Lee. I like that idea. I'm going to have my home inspector and my crawl space company write up a report on it. I think having two qualified/separate opinions in writing will go a long way when the backlash comes.
"in a he said/she said situation with college kids and their grizzly bear parents things can get heated"
This is not relevant. Have it inspected and if you have a case you send notification to your tenants that they are liable for the repair costs. If you get paid you are good to go otherwise you turn it over to your lawyer to handle. It makes no difference who your tenants are.
Based on my personal construction experience there is very little doubt that this is tenant caused damage. If there is no existing rot in the timbers it is clear cut. Have a contractor do th erepairs and bill your tennats.
Rental Property Investor · Columbia, SC · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
7y
@Chris Masons the put a work order in yesterday and it states the following:
"The floor is bending downwards in the middle of our living room. It starts bending downwards at the start of the island bar, then continues to bend down for around 5ft, then back up to normal height around wall."
My handyman went over there yesterday and they verbally him that about 20-30 people were over there and weren't jumping. I don't believe they have specified when it took place on Sunday..
Rental Property Investor · Columbia, SC · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
7y
@Thomas S. thank you for the feedback. I hadn't thought about the existing wood rot standpoint. I'll get a professional opinion on that but doesn't appear to be an issue to me.
Developer · New Brunswick, NJ · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
7y
Lol what kind of animals are you renting to Will?
The joists look new but something like that doesn't just spontaneously break. I was at parties in college where 100 people were in the house and no floor broke. I'd avoid confronting them about it now. Fix it, document it and sue them if their deposit doesn't cover it so you can keep getting rent.
Keep in mind, tenants rarely confess to breaking anything. "It just happened" "It was like that when I moved in".
I just had a kid tell me a window broke when it was 5 degrees in NJ last week. He was trying to close the window and the bottom frame broke so we had to replace the whole window. He keeps telling me it's normal wear and tear as if I'm stupid. When I asked him what the hell he was doing opening a window in 5 degree weather it took him 4 days to respond. They lie all the time.
Lender · Pensacola, FL · Member since 2017 · 658 posts · 626 votes
7y
To have some fun with arithmetic, 30 people at 150 lbs average weight multiplies out to 4,500 lbs. Many cars weigh less than this number. Do architectural standards presume someone is going to drive a car (if possible) on to a living room floor? I don't know the answer to this question, but the fact the floor didn't give way completely might suggest the wood wasn't rotting. An insurance adjuster might have a better insight.
P.S., I'm not an attorney, but if the floor does give way completely and people get hurt, the landlord's problems are going to get much more expensive. If the place is still habitable, shoring up the floor with temporary posts might be something to consider depending on the local building codes.
Rental Property Investor · Columbia, SC · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
7y
Haha @Peter Tverdov The animals I'm renting to are the future of America!
I have had probably ~100 broken windows in the last 13 years and only 6 students have ever admitted to breaking it. I fix it free when they do because I'm so grateful for their rare transparency. Being the landlord of college students is like being a state trooper. 99.9999% of the job is hearing lies.
I like the idea on the deposit but based on my experience/calculations of existing damage and cleaning, I still think that'll be 2k-3k short.
Rental Property Investor · Columbia, SC · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
7y
Thank you for the insight @Account Closed. All good points. We are installing some temporary jacks today until we can get it repaired properly by our crawl space contractor in a few weeks. I really like your insurance adjuster idea. I'd love to hear what they'd have to say about it.
Real Estate Broker · Bay Area · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
7y
Hi Will,
I am not a construction expert. Based on the pictures it looks like the joists were in good condition. I didn't see rotted wood or anything to show weakness. College kids and the super bowl. I think its pretty clear. No jumping? LOL. There were several plays in the game that would cause people to jump out. Now imagine 30-40 people + alcohol and being 18-22yrs old. I think you need a professional write up as Michael said. Something that will explain the load and weight of being excessive to cause the damage. Good luck
Whitewater, WI · Member since 2019 · 13 posts · 5 votes
7y
We recently had the same thing happen to our college rentals. In one of our brand new buildings we had a unit have a "30-40" person party in the upper unit of our building. Long story short, the beam sagged an 1 3/4" and the metal ties started to pull apart. Our joists were engineered in Iowa, so we had our contractor send in pictures to the manufacturer to see how it would get fixed. They said to sister 11 7/8" LVL to each joist to strengthen the entire floor system. We already filed for a permit through the city in case if we had to dig deeper. This is all I know at the moment.
My real question is, who is liable? The manufacturer, or the tenants?
In regards to your liability question, I would imagine the tenants mostly are. I think it'd be hard to hold a manufacturer responsible as 30 to 40 person party isn't particularly reasonable use.
But I'm biased against large amounts of people jumping up and down in a building.
Flipper/Rehabber · Davie, FL · Member since 2016 · 101 posts · 136 votes
7y
@Will Gaston it would take a lot of people jumping in a single spot to break that joist unless it was faulty to begin with. It’s possible it was sub-par and had a crack already running through it.
If you really want to fight it, you’d have to hire an engineer to look at the beam and determine if it was flawed as well as how much force it would take to break it. In the end though, would it be worth it? It would likely cost more in legal fees then it will to repair. Leasing to college kids is always risky and you should have costs built in for things like this.
I would at a minimum modify your student lease agreements to restrict party sizes. It’s hard to enforce without neighbors reporting but most clauses are a deterrent more than anything else.
Contractor · Baltimore county, MD · Member since 2018 · 17 posts · 15 votes
7y
Just from looking at the pictures it seems the header or girder snapped in half. The joists are then attached to this built up beam, or girder. I don't think it was built structurally solid in the first place. Yes, your living room should be able to support the weight of a car. I know that old houses were not always built up to modern code. This should not happen with any amount of people jumping or partying in the house. Did a HVAC guy or plumber notch the heck out of it and weaken it substantially? That's very common. Prob not what you want to hear, but I'm saying it's not their fault. My opinion as a professional contractor and landlord. Oh, it looks unsafe to inhabit also
Whitewater, WI · Member since 2019 · 13 posts · 5 votes
7y
@Will Gaston, thanks for your input. This unit has been a nightmare so far, because it is such a beautiful unit with it being high generating and close to campus.
It is a five bedroom unit, eventually (long story short), two of them wanted to break the lease. We are still dealing with that process, with only collecting three tenant's rent. These same three tenants are the ones who had the party.
Definitely a nightmare for my father and myself since I am entering the field this year. My father is a very generous person, but I am beginning to feel that we will have to go the legal route with this.
What is all of the evidence that I would have to gather in order to build a bullet-proof case? Any ideas? I guess the answers could help us both at this point.
Rental Property Investor · Birmingham, MI · Member since 2016 · 60 posts · 71 votes
7y
No. I don't believe the tenants broke the "joist." That's not a joist BTW. It's a beam that was unsupported and there is a tear where it came apart. Likely because there were too many fasteners in close proximity. If it would have split because of weight, jumping the lumber would have long "fingers" on each side of the break instead of being torn like a sheet of loose leaf. - Said a Licensed Builder.
Now take this with a grain of salt because I, like most other builders, can put it together fantastic but rarely do we see how stuff gets broken. I'd personally be looking out for numero uno, amigo. Call your insurance company because the adjuster is going to have more experience then any peanut gallery. Then call the local building department to see if the home is occupy-able. Base your next steps from the adjusters recommendation. Builder's and handymen are not going to be very credible in court because their we are the equivalent of a tow truck driver at an accident scene.
Whitewater, WI · Member since 2019 · 13 posts · 5 votes
7y
@Account Closed Sounds good. We have already confirmed that the residence is occupy-able for our case. I am just gathering input to formulate a decision for this "oops".
Rental Property Investor · Birmingham, MI · Member since 2016 · 60 posts · 71 votes
7y
@Ben Freiermuth With my limited knowledge of your situation I'd file an insurance claim an move on. You'd never be able to prove they did it unless you could find a judge that would summon the tenants cell phones in discovery hoping that one of them was recording "for the Gram" when the incident tool place. Have a 13 year old you know stalk their social media, they for sure posted the aftermath and maybe someone isn't on top of their privacy settings. Also not a bad idea to have a max occupancy or no parties addendum to the lease.
Whitewater, WI · Member since 2019 · 13 posts · 5 votes
7y
@Account Closed, Thank you for your input. I will discuss it with my father and see what we will decide. You are right with trying to scavenge for evidence from every tenant and party-goer is impossible--all while managing all other activities. I just looked through our lease and agreements, we do not have an occupancy addendum.
Rental Property Investor · Columbia, SC · Member since 2010 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
7y
@Darren Lenick I do have a restriction on party sizes in my lease. (10 or more has to be approved by the LL). They've admitted to that but not to doing any damage. I have rented to over 1,000 college students in the last 13 years and have plenty budgeted in for broken windows, appliances, walls, everything but this seems excessive.
@Account Closed thanks for the construction input. I am certainly no expert in that field so that is helpful.
Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
7y
What is the standard floor load?
U.S. building codes specify a uniform live load of 40 pounds per square foot (psf) for most residential floor designs. This load is intended to account for the large number of loads that can occur in a residence. ... The 40 psf load is typically adequate to cover these loads. Something doesnt look right with that beam . Its hard to tell by the pictures . Now could 30 or 40 people jumping possibly cause that damage ? Possibly if they all were jumping at the same time in a small area and doing it for a long time . Was it intentional ? I would have to say No. Could if be considered their fault , I believe that is a big stretch . I dont believe you would win in court , a engineer would be the one to determine how it happened and why . But that same information could be used against the owner by a good lawyer . Me I would be happy it didnt totally fall in , injuring 30 to 40 people . (which isnt that many in a house) . I would get my insurance there ASAP . And wait and see if the tenant sue for a place to live .
Real Estate Investor · Washington, DC · Member since 2014 · 236 posts · 328 votes
7y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
No. I don't believe the tenants broke the "joist." That's not a joist BTW. It's a beam that was unsupported and there is a tear where it came apart. Likely because there were too many fasteners in close proximity. If it would have split because of weight, jumping the lumber would have long "fingers" on each side of the break instead of being torn like a sheet of loose leaf. - Said a Licensed Builder.
Now take this with a grain of salt because I, like most other builders, can put it together fantastic but rarely do we see how stuff gets broken. I'd personally be looking out for numero uno, amigo. Call your insurance company because the adjuster is going to have more experience then any peanut gallery. Then call the local building department to see if the home is occupy-able. Base your next steps from the adjusters recommendation. Builder's and handymen are not going to be very credible in court because their we are the equivalent of a tow truck driver at an accident scene.
Yeah, it looks like the beam was notched to fit, which isn't a great idea. Also, what is that bent metal pole in the picture? Was it holding up the beam before this happened? If so, why did the previous owner put it there if there wasn't a problem?
FWIW I don't think it's a several thousand dollar fix. You can buy a lally jack for under $100 and it will look ugly, but hold up a beam forever.