Upstairs tenant overflowed tub, insurance won't pay

Upstairs tenant overflowed tub, insurance won't pay

Rental Property Investor · Columbia, MD · Member since 2019 · 52 posts · 64 votes

This has happened twice now in a span of less than 6 months.  The property is a duplex with a tenant living in the upstairs unit and the downstairs unit is presently vacant.  The upstairs tenant overflowed the tub (again) causing water damage to the downstairs unit.  It wasn't serious, but it still cost me nearly $700 to clean up with water and have the ceiling in the downstairs unit repaired / repainted.  Luckily there was nobody living in the downstairs unit at the time or else their contents could have been damaged.

After contacting my insurance company I was basically told that damages caused by the tenant's actions are not covered, and my only recourse would be against the tenant or the tenant's renter's insurance.  Problem is the tenant has no renter's insurance and is on a fixed income with little or no ability to pay for the damages (she's elderly and Section 8).  So what in the world do I do here?  

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Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
7y

Hi Phillip,

That chrome circle with the screwdriver next to it.

If you take that off, there should be a small slot in the bottom of it. 

That's the overflow. Make sure the slot is clear and the drain behind it is open.

If all is well with that, then try reducing the water flow rate to the unit by turning down the main water valve so less water comes out of the tub faucet (and all faucets) and the overflow can handle the problem.

Then test it to make sure the inflow to the tub equals the outflow by they overflow.

Good Luck!

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  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y

    You suck it up and pay since you didn't require your tenant to purchase Renters Insurance which is a very basic level of protection for you. I would also start the eviction process. Two times tells me there is something mentally wrong - probably age related - with the tenant. This time the tub overflowed, but next time the stove catches fire and the building burns to the ground. 

    And for everyone on this forum that says it is meaningless to require your tenants have Renters Insurance as you have your own insurance, print this out and tape it to your computer!

  • Rental Property Investor · Columbia, MD · Member since 2019 · 52 posts · 64 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Greg M.:

    You suck it up and pay since you didn't require your tenant to purchase Renters Insurance which is a very basic level of protection for you. I would also start the eviction process. Two times tells me there is something mentally wrong - probably age related - with the tenant. This time the tub overflowed, but next time the stove catches fire and the building burns to the ground. 

    And for everyone on this forum that says it is meaningless to require your tenants have Renters Insurance as you have your own insurance, print this out and tape it to your computer!

    Thanks for the comments.  I should mention that this tenant was already there when I purchased the property, and apparently the lease she signed with the previous owner didn't require her to get insurance.  Even so, something tells me the insurance agent I spoke with is flat out wrong.  Wouldn't overflow from a tub, sink, toilet, etc. be considered "sudden and accidental" which according to the language in my policy should be covered?  Should I start looking for another insurance company?

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    7y
    What you do is learn to operate as a business and leave your personal feelings and emotions at home. A overflowed tub is incomitance not "sudden and accidental". You must make your tenant pay for the damages. It is not for you to decide she can not afford to pay, that is her problem not yours. Give her the bill, set up a payment plan if necessary, and if she does not pay you evict. The threat of eviction and possibly being cut off of S8 will get you paid. You need to stop caring about your tenants problems. Additionally once you get your $700 do not renew this tenants lease. You need to get rid of her or she will do it again.
  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y

    A lot of polices exclude water damage in a variety of different ways. Gut feeling is that unless your policy has an exclusion like this, you could probably get the insurance company to pay. However, do you really want a claim against your insurance policy for $700 in damages minus any applicable deductible? 

  • Rental Property Investor · Columbia, MD · Member since 2019 · 52 posts · 64 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Greg M.:

    A lot of polices exclude water damage in a variety of different ways. Gut feeling is that unless your policy has an exclusion like this, you could probably get the insurance company to pay. However, do you really want a claim against your insurance policy for $700 in damages minus any applicable deductible? 

    Yes that's a good point.  Deductible is $500, so wouldn't make much sense to file a claim for $700 when only $200 would be covered.  However this could have been much worse had a tenant been living downstairs.

  • Rockaway, NJ · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    I agree 100% with @Thomas S. She did the damage, she has to pay. Otherwise, what is to stop her from doing it again? Also, since this is a housing related issue, section 8 may help her pay it. What did you do the first time? I hope you didn’t eat the cost.

  • Rental Property Investor · Columbia, MD · Member since 2019 · 52 posts · 64 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Andrew B.:

    What did you do the first time? I hope you didn’t eat the cost.

     Afraid so :-(

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y

    Hi Phillip,

    That chrome circle with the screwdriver next to it.

    If you take that off, there should be a small slot in the bottom of it. 

    That's the overflow. Make sure the slot is clear and the drain behind it is open.

    If all is well with that, then try reducing the water flow rate to the unit by turning down the main water valve so less water comes out of the tub faucet (and all faucets) and the overflow can handle the problem.

    Then test it to make sure the inflow to the tub equals the outflow by they overflow.

    Good Luck!

  • Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    7y

    @Phillip S. Why is the tub overflowing? Tubs have overflow protection. OK, Scott beat me to it.

  • Rental Property Investor · Columbia, MD · Member since 2019 · 52 posts · 64 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Scott Mac:

    Hi Phillip,

    That chrome circle with the screwdriver next to it.

    If you take that off, there should be a small slot in the bottom of it. 

    That's the overflow. Make sure the slot is clear and the drain behind it is open.

    If all is well with that, then try reducing the water flow rate to the unit by turning down the main water valve so less water comes out of the tub faucet (and all faucets) and the overflow can handle the problem.

    Then test it to make sure the inflow to the tub equals the outflow by they overflow.

    Good Luck!

    Sorry for the dumb question, but does the chrome cover have to be off in order for the overflow drain to work?  I'm starting to wonder if the tub upstairs even has an overflow.

  • Rental Property Investor · Columbia, MD · Member since 2019 · 52 posts · 64 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Jim K.:

    @Phillip S. Why is the tub overflowing? Tubs have overflow protection. OK, Scott beat me to it.

    Thanks, I need to investigate.  Either the upstairs tub doesn't have that, or it's not working properly. 

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y

    The cover stays on for daily use, but the slot in the bottom needs to be open and the main drain at the bottom as well as the overflow tube needs to be clear.

    If the tub drain is slow, that needs to be addressed too, because its one system top drain and bottom drain as you can see from the illustration.

    Another thing is some people take the cover off and flip the slot side up so the water is deeper. If you see that put the slot back to bottom and ask the resident not to do that again.

    Good Luck!

  • Hamilton, NJ · Member since 2019 · 78 posts · 15 votes
    7y

    Is there a way to have a clause in the contract that they pay for any clean up that's there fault?

  • Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 11 votes
    7y

    @Phillip S.

    Did you talk to your insurance agent or an adjuster? It sounds like you spoke with your agent rather than an adjuster. Many agents don’t know the first thing about policy and coverage. Nearly all sudden and accidental water damage is covered on primary dwellings, rental dwellings may have different coverages depending on your policy. Without seeing your docs we can’t diagnose what coverage you have. If you didn’t make a claim yet I recommend you DO NOT make a claim unless it is thousands over the deductible. Your premium will likely adjust and if you have too many claims in too short of time then you will be dropped from carrier and have to shop for insurance in second tier market (more money, less service).

  • Rental Property Investor · The Vampire State · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    @Phillip S. also, very important - make sure the overflow gasket is in place and in good condition.  It is asymmetrical with the thick side facing down to conform with the contour of the tub wall, and is held in place by pressure created by tightening those chrome screws.  Otherwise, when the water overflows into the overflow body, it will go right down the outside of the tub inside the wall and leak through the ceiling below. (ask me how I know this)

    Just another thing to check.  VERY important to diagnose why the tub is leaking, regardless of the blame.  If the gasket has failed, this would not be the tenant's fault.

  • Rental Property Investor · The Vampire State · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    @Kenny M. Lewis

    23. PLUMBING: You shall report all drips and leaks immediately to the Property Manager. You shall never pour cooking grease or other damaging/obstructing objects down toilets, sinks or drains. No products aside from bathroom tissue may be flushed down the toilet. This includes feminine hygiene products and “flushable” wipes. You are liable for all expenses or repairs resulting from the stopping of waste pipes or overflow and spillage from sinks, tubs, toilets, showers, washbasins or containers.

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    7y

    1. The upstairs tenant is 100% responsible and should pay for any damages to your property and damage to the tenant's belongings downstairs.

    2. Fix the drain issue or take out the tub and install a shower.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7243 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · Boise/Portland · Member since 2017 · 709 posts · 742 votes
    7y

    My curiosity is peaked now.

    Does the city code require a bathtub overflow drain?  If so, the responsibility is on you because it didn't work. If you threaten your tenant her attorney may come back at you.  Just a thought.

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y

    Elderly Section-8 lady, I doubt she could come up with enough money to pay for the repairs, and for a section 8 renter (predictable stable long term rent payer) he could do a lot worse (Section-8 Nightmares), meaning from a business standpoint he might choose to eat the cost and keep that particular easy section 8 tenant.

    Just my 2 cents.

  • Investor · Bayside, NY · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    7y

    You got some good opinions and pointers. In my case, I bought older properties on the cheap in high appreciating areas, knowing the properties need some work. That's in NYYC. I was not a big landlord, but owned a number of 3-plexes, and had up to 20 units total at one point, and the problem with leaks from upstairs occur one or twice and year, spent on the average $1,500 to fix, but I never requested the tenant's reimbursement. 

    Let me tell you why.

    I've been doing rentals for nearly 40 years, and my dad before that. My dad had a mixed use property among some large apartment buildings, some with over 100 units. We often hear of controversies between landlord and tenant for this.

    Where there's a leak in the ceiling, some are discovered right away, some are discovered months later. In the case of "strict" landlords, when discovered, people would deny knowing about it, even though they do. In these cases, plumbers have to check for leaks in pipes in the walls, under the bathtub, sometimes cutting holes in the ceiling. In the case of tub and toilet overflows, the plumbers find nothing, you can't prove the tenant is at fault, but you leave behind a pissed off tenant, if in fact they are really not at fault.

    Think of all the money you saved not cutting open walls and patching them up again where in fact it was an overflow, and the tenant old you that up front.

    I'm more easy going, so if something happens, people tell me right away, and that in itself prevents more damage. I have a SFR that makes people responsible for repairs under $100.00. Before that, when there's leak under the sink, they call me. With the $100 responsibility, they don't call, put a pail under the sink, and damage occurs when they forget to empty it.

    Unfortunately, my mother in law who owns rentals, are of the old school, gets after tenants for everything. What do the tenant's do? They get after her for everything. One got after her for lack of security for a break in, after a few run ins with her, and demanded over $5,000 in damages. The city got involved with code violations. I finally helped her with the tenant giving him a month and a half free rent, around $1,500. The insurance agent suggested not filing claims as the insurance company can cancel the policy and raise rates. The tenant was with her at that point for about two years, and she did charge him back for a number of minor things. I finally told her, you got the money on a bunch of small things, so where did that get you?

    Oh, you got some wonderful information on the overflow pipe in the bathtub. Of the average of one or two complaints a year on leaks from upstairs, the plumber found the problem with the overflow pipe in one case. Currently, we found damage caused by overflow with one tenant, and it was caused by overflowing toilets. As I said, I'm easy going. If it was my mother in law handling it, they would deny they know anything about it.

    Most of the leaks from upstairs in my rentals come from pipes in the walls, for buildings over 50 years old, pretty common, people who didn't know how to use shower curtains, defective shower doors etc. The funniest one was the wax seal under the toilet was leaking, and the plumber called to ask if my tenant is a heavy guy. I said "yes. he's about 275 lbs". So he said, "I seen it happen, an old toilet, a heavy guy who sits and squirms on the toilet would do it". What should I do, charge him for the repair since he squirms on the toilet? What if he says "I don't recall ever squirming on the toilet"?

    One word about renter's insurance, they don't allow it in NYC although I asked tenants to buy it. I had one wise guy who bought it, sent me proof, then cancelled it a week later. Some month's later, he left his windows open and caused over $6,000 in damage, floor boards all buckled. Tenant even wanted to get after me for damages to his property. I said, "you got $150 back on your renter insurance and now you're out $5,000. How did that work out." I filed a claim in this case, the one and only in nearly 40 years. They didn't cancel me or raise my rates.

  • Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    7y

    The knee jerk reaction to say that’s what you get for not requiring renters assurance is not valid in my view . Firstly I highly doubt renters insurance would cover this anyways and I know for a fact in my market if I required all my renters to get insurance I’d never attract nor keep a tenant . Lower income tenants simply won’t pay as they see this as wasting money . They will go down the street to the other 50 landlords who don’t require it .

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    7y

    If it over flowed because she forgot she turned it on, she is responsible.  After the first time, she should have been more careful.  What if you moved her to the lower unit?  That would mean a third incident would damage the crawl space or basement, assuming there is one.  You can also raise her rent, easy to justify if you move her to the other unit saying she has access to the yard.  

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y

    @Theresa Harris

    Theresa get the "Thinking Outside the Box" Award of the day.

    That is smart!

    Probably be easier for her aged legs than walking the stairs too.

  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Dennis M.:

    The knee jerk reaction to say that’s what you get for not requiring renters assurance is not valid in my view . Firstly I highly doubt renters insurance would cover this anyways...

    Just like every insurance policy, it may or may not cover the water damage depending on what is excluded. However, it's highly likely that the landlord would get paid under the liability portion of the renters insurance. The tenant might not get any coverage for their damaged property, but the landlord will likely get paid. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Greg M.:
    Originally posted by @Dennis M.:

    The knee jerk reaction to say that’s what you get for not requiring renters assurance is not valid in my view . Firstly I highly doubt renters insurance would cover this anyways...

    Just like every insurance policy, it may or may not cover the water damage depending on what is excluded. However, it's highly likely that the landlord would get paid under the liability portion of the renters insurance. The tenant might not get any coverage for their damaged property, but the landlord will likely get paid. 

    In my experience Most insurance  policies are packed full of disclaimers for such things  to get them off the hook to pay out claims . And again.. if the renters won’t pay it or continue to pay it then it’s all for naught  

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