Ductless Heat Pumps for rentals and personal residence?

Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes

Just starting to research ductless heat pumps and wanting to get BP's take on what kind is best and some feedback. The properties are for: 1) 650 sf upstairs unit in a duplex; 2) 1650 sf ranch style (one level) and 3) 2400 sf ranch style. Portland OR temps range from 20 to 100 degree fahrenheit.

Most furnace people aren't that hot on them but replacing a new gas furnace AND a new air conditioner is huge (14K) when a ductless can run cheaper purchase wise (4k) and efficiency wise.

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Steve Abercrombie

Olympia, WA · Member since 2016 · 22 posts · 20 votes

@Jeff S. - I'm up in Washington State (Olympia and Tacoma) so similar climate. I have a lot of experience with ductless mini-splits. I have one installed in my personal residence, am considering installing them in a rental duplex, and I have commissioned dozens of them in apartment and commercial projects in Puget Sound.

Overall I'm a huge fan of the units - they are pretty easy to install, work really well, and are energy savers compared to about any other system out there. They do have problems in other climates when the temp gets below the teens during the winter. The upside is that you get A/C for our increasingly hot summers.

A few gotchas on these units:

While installation is pretty easy - the refrigerant lines are soft copper. If the installer has to go around a corner, force the lines through a tight (or blind) penetration, or just isn't careful; they can kink or break the lines which leads to a host of problems that won't be covered under the mfg warranty.
They don't heat enclosed bedrooms or bathrooms really well when the doors are closed. Plan to install cadets, heat panels / cove heaters, or baseboards in any room that is on an outside wall or has windows. Wiring and 220 circuit requirements can run the cost up quickly if you are converting from a central system. You can also run multi-head systems, which are great for comfort and convenience but expensive up-front. There are alternate options to transfer air to/from bedrooms, but those get somewhat complicated.
The cassette fan coils are ugly and take up wall space, You also need a thermostat for each one so you have to plan for labor for that wiring.
In my experience the Japanese products (mitsubishi, fujitsu, daikin, etc.) are better technology than the American manufacturers (trane, lenox, etc.). LG is somewhere in the middle. If you are trying to install smart thermostats like a nest make sure that the unit you're buying is compatible. Most of the manufacturers you can only use their thermostat and their "smart" thermostats aren't typically that great.
Pay attention to condensate (the water produced by the units inside and out). You've got to run a drain from the inside unit particularly. If they back up they can create a big headache
You need to clean the filter on the inside unit more frequently than 60 days. If there are pets or a lot of dust you may need to do it more frequently. If you don't the fan has to work a lot harder and that will eventually shorten its life.
If you are switching from a central system or get tripped up needing to comply with current code - you may have to provide a fresh air source (this is really good to do in any building, particularly your primary). Panasonic bathroom fans on constant low with an occupancy sensor or humidity sensor to boost into high speed are my go-to, but it is another potential cost add.

The utilities offer good incentives / rebates for ductless heat pumps, but you usually have to use a "registered installer" so you may end up paying more than the rebate is worth.

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Benjamin Bleasdale
Contractor · Spencer, TN · Member since 2018 · 56 posts · 30 votes
7y
Ductless mini splits like a Mitsubishi hyper heat? They’re the way of the future. I have them in my house. A friend put them in his very upscale house. The unit on the wall is slightly obtrusive, but they’re coming out with sleeker designs every year.
4K per unit seems a little steep.
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Robert S.Pro Member
Vancouver, WA · Member since 2016 · 15 posts · 3 votes
7y
Minisplit system is the way to go. They are affordable, easy maintenance, and very efficient. I have a 18000 BTU minisplit system and works like a charm. I bought mine on amazon for less then $900. You can install it yourself or pay a professional (few hundred dollars). You'll need to add a dedicated power circuit and power to the inverter (outdoor unit). Yes, 4K sounds very steep, unless you have 4+ indoor units per home. If you are looking for cooling, you only need one unit in the main living area. As for heating just add baseboard heaters in the rest of the rooms as a backup.
Minisplit system: PIONEER Air Conditioner WYS018GMFI17RL Minisplit Heatpump 18000 BTU-208/230V
The 9K-12K BTU systems only need 120V.
PM me if you any more questions on the setup.

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Derrick Aragon
Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2016 · 213 posts · 60 votes
7y
@Jeff S. Cheap go ptac...
0 Reply
Dennis M.
Rental Property Investor · Erie, PA · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 9k+ votes
7y
My residence has a Trane Mini split . Awesome and cheap energy use . Forget everything you know about old heat pumps with these new style units they offer
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Jeff S.
OP
Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y
@Benjamin Bleasdale so is the Mitsubishi the one to get? Do you have a unit in every room or does the higher end guy? Personally I think for my house just one would work with open concept. Not sure yet.
Asked a friend (real estate agent) how buyers like the looks and she said half are ok and half don't like. I know you can bury them in the floor with extra heat vents but lose efficiency.
Really sleek and buried into the wall is what I am thinking.
$4k is what I keep hearing. Would certainly be happy to pay less. Looks like installation is the main expense. Wonder if my handyman could figure it out.
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Benjamin Bleasdale
Contractor · Spencer, TN · Member since 2018 · 56 posts · 30 votes
7y
Jeff the Mitsubishi hyper heat is the top of the line, works down to -13 which is why I got it. I use just one and have a 950 sq ft house. The higher end he heats zones, like two to feed the bedrooms, two to feed the living areas. His house is 3200 sq ft.
Oh yeah I brain farted and forgot I put them in my in laws new build. 3 12ks in a 2,000 sq ft house. One in master suite and two in living room area. The guest bedrooms stay a nice temp even though they don’t have a dedicated unit.
Yes I suppose most of that would be labor. A good 12k hyper heat runs about 2k with materials. Although being construction the word handyman makes me cringe, depending on how “handy” he is they’re not hard. I then paid $200 to have the hvac dude evacuate the lines.
Originally posted by @Jeff S.:
@Benjamin Bleasdale so is the Mitsubishi the one to get? Do you have a unit in every room or does the higher end guy? Personally I think for my house just one would work with open concept. Not sure yet.
Asked a friend (real estate agent) how buyers like the looks and she said half are ok and half don't like. I know you can bury them in the floor with extra heat vents but lose efficiency.
Really sleek and buried into the wall is what I am thinking.
$4k is what I keep hearing. Would certainly be happy to pay less. Looks like installation is the main expense. Wonder if my handyman could figure it out.
1 Reply
Jeff S.
OP
Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y
Thank you @Benjamin Bleasdale this is very encouraging. Will look into that model for sure.
0 Reply
Jeff S.
OP
Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y
Hi @Robert S., another Portlander shows up on here. When I first started on BP there were no Portlanders for several years then slowly but surely we are coming around. Yes, I will PM you. Would be good to chat on the phone. Thank you for the reply.
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Jeff S.
OP
Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y
@Derrick Aragon another Portland dude. Yes, have seen those in hotels and wondered. Looks like a big hole in the wall. Maybe a good choice for that really low budget rental. Don't think Portland has those anymore. Maybe good out a ways though. Thanks for the idea. Time for a BP meet-up.
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Jeff S.
OP
Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y
@Dennis M. thank you. Trane is a good name for sure. Thinking everything will be this in my future. So far we have Mitsubishi, Trane and Pioneer and everybody is happy. Thinking you are in a good cash flow market.
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Benjamin Bleasdale
Contractor · Spencer, TN · Member since 2018 · 56 posts · 30 votes
7y
Jeff some of the mini splits have ceiling models which are less obtrusive
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Jeff S.
OP
Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y
On the ceiling makes sense because it could hide in a hallway @Benjamin Bleasdale. I like that idea.
0 Reply
Theresa HarrisPro Member
Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
7y
One of my rentals has a ductless heat pump and as long as it is placed in the right spot, it works well. I had to move it as the previous owner wanted it in a hallway despite the installer telling her it wouldn't work properly, so guess what?? It didn't work properly and we had it moved to where he originally suggested and it works like a charm.
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Jeff S.
OP
Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y
Is it a ceiling or wall model @Theresa Harris? Isn’t it a little hard to move dollar wise?
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Theresa HarrisPro Member
Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
7y
@Jeff S. It is mounted on the wall-close to the ceiling. It was about $1000 to move it, but it wasn't working in the place it was originally installed so we really didn't have a lot of options. If the previous owner had listened to the installer, it wouldn't have been a problem. They moved the base unit which is outside and had to run everything else.
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Jeff S.
OP
Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y
@Theresa Harris would or do you have one in your own home? Would you recommend putting one in?
0 Reply
Theresa HarrisPro Member
Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
7y
@Jeff S. My mom has one. She just had it put in last summer in a new house which is near where my rental is with the heat pump. At the moment, she's not happy with it because her electric bills have been really high. She called the company that installed it to come and check on it and they said they found a leak in the system. This all happened in the last two weeks. Based on the two, I'm not sure I'd do it; but I live in a colder climate and admittedly am resistant to change. I have a gas furnace with forced air in my house.
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Jeff S.
OP
Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
7y
Thank you very much @Theresa Harris that is valuable information.
0 Reply
Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
7y
Jeff we are putting these in 3 new builds we are doing Off of IVY we were required to squeeze 3 homes on a 4k sq ft lot based on the R2A zone.. so there is not enough room for the space the old system take.. so will see how they do.
Friend of mine over in Honolulu has them in his multi million dollar home there ..
And I have seen them in some new builds out at hood river when I was doing my project out there..
for rentals I have to think its OK.. as long as you have heat your good.. just think about all the homes in inner PDX that have no air-conditioning..
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Derrick Aragon
Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2016 · 213 posts · 60 votes
7y
@Jeff S. They are used in almost ever nee construction apt built today in Portland. Same and in some cases higher efficiency, they also provide make up air which mini splits don't at 1/4 th price. You can get architecture exterior covers that look little better.
0 Reply
William Alexander
Investor · Asheville, NC · Member since 2015 · 10 posts · 7 votes
7y
@Jeff S.look up Mr Cool mini splits....They make a DIY version that is pre-charged with Freon. You hire an electrician to get power to it then punch a 3 inch hole in your wall and install the entire system yourself with no HVAC contractor. Depending on your local codes and enforcement of course. 12k BTU units have purchased were around $1300-$1500. I’m in store for them with great success. Had one warranty issue with fan bearing which was covered.
0 Reply
Steve Abercrombie
Olympia, WA · Member since 2016 · 22 posts · 20 votes
7y
@Jeff S. - I'm up in Washington State (Olympia and Tacoma) so similar climate. I have a lot of experience with ductless mini-splits. I have one installed in my personal residence, am considering installing them in a rental duplex, and I have commissioned dozens of them in apartment and commercial projects in Puget Sound.
Overall I'm a huge fan of the units - they are pretty easy to install, work really well, and are energy savers compared to about any other system out there. They do have problems in other climates when the temp gets below the teens during the winter. The upside is that you get A/C for our increasingly hot summers.
A few gotchas on these units:
- While installation is pretty easy - the refrigerant lines are soft copper. If the installer has to go around a corner, force the lines through a tight (or blind) penetration, or just isn't careful; they can kink or break the lines which leads to a host of problems that won't be covered under the mfg warranty.
- They don't heat enclosed bedrooms or bathrooms really well when the doors are closed. Plan to install cadets, heat panels / cove heaters, or baseboards in any room that is on an outside wall or has windows. Wiring and 220 circuit requirements can run the cost up quickly if you are converting from a central system. You can also run multi-head systems, which are great for comfort and convenience but expensive up-front. There are alternate options to transfer air to/from bedrooms, but those get somewhat complicated.
- The cassette fan coils are ugly and take up wall space, You also need a thermostat for each one so you have to plan for labor for that wiring.
- In my experience the Japanese products (mitsubishi, fujitsu, daikin, etc.) are better technology than the American manufacturers (trane, lenox, etc.). LG is somewhere in the middle. If you are trying to install smart thermostats like a nest make sure that the unit you're buying is compatible. Most of the manufacturers you can only use their thermostat and their "smart" thermostats aren't typically that great.
- Pay attention to condensate (the water produced by the units inside and out). You've got to run a drain from the inside unit particularly. If they back up they can create a big headache
- You need to clean the filter on the inside unit more frequently than 60 days. If there are pets or a lot of dust you may need to do it more frequently. If you don't the fan has to work a lot harder and that will eventually shorten its life.
- If you are switching from a central system or get tripped up needing to comply with current code - you may have to provide a fresh air source (this is really good to do in any building, particularly your primary). Panasonic bathroom fans on constant low with an occupancy sensor or humidity sensor to boost into high speed are my go-to, but it is another potential cost add.
The utilities offer good incentives / rebates for ductless heat pumps, but you usually have to use a "registered installer" so you may end up paying more than the rebate is worth.
2 Reply
Nik Moushon
Architect · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2018 · 843 posts · 907 votes
7y
@Steve Abercrombie, I'm considering installing this in my rental on the East side of the mnts. I don't need them for heat, just cooling. Do you install them in every room of your rentals or just the main living area?
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Steve Abercrombie
Olympia, WA · Member since 2016 · 22 posts · 20 votes
7y
@Nik Moushon - I think ductless mini splits in smaller rentals (say up to 1K S.F) make the most sense to install only in the main living area in the NW because of the cost of additional heads (and installation). Especially for A/C you can use a box fan to move the air into bedrooms. If you have a bigger SF, consider multiple heads, if the payback is there. I am going to add a master suite into the 3rd Story of my duplex - and for that expansion I'm going to add a 2-head unit. One head for the main living space and one for the ~500 s.f. master. Because it is on the top floor the A/C is a huge amenity. In other climates (like Hawaii) I see a lot of STRs put them only in the bedrooms and leave the main living spaces naturally conditioned.
0 Reply
Nik Moushon
Architect · Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2018 · 843 posts · 907 votes
7y
@Steve Abercrombie - Thanks. Its a smaller rental, 1200 sf, but the bedrooms are all down a hall away from the main living. I dont want to put a unit in all 3 bedrooms, might as well get HVAC at that point.
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