I allowed a tenant to have pets (3 small dogs), with a pet deposit of $300. He was the first tenant in a newly renovated unit with refinished wood floors. After several visits in which I found feces on the floor, a growing odor of urine, and finally, an unauthorized cat living in the property, I told the tenant his lease would not be renewed and he needed to relocate (there was only two months left on his lease, so it did not seem worth evicting).
Now that he is out, the smell is horrendous (you can smell it from outside the front door). I've been told the floors need to be replaced and the house treated with ozone.
My question is, how much is the tenant responsible beyond his regular and pet deposit? I plan to file in small claims court, for what good it will do. But the total repairs will be about $6500. Technically, the lease does not say pets can't urinate and defecate in the house. Would I face any problems in court, without that in the lease? or do I only get a maximum of his pet deposit in return for damages?
Thanks for your help,
First time landlord
OK.
So your contractor is telling you that the way to handle this is to tear out all the wood flooring in the apartment and then treat with ozone, and then put in a new wood floor.
This is insane, the home improvement equivalent of going into a Quickie Lube for a $30 oil change and coming out with a bill for $300. You should get multiple opinions about this problem AFTER you clean up and treat with ozone. You can buy a large-room ozone generator off Amazon for $100. Follow the directions.
Get that done, then see what the floor looks and smells like, Wood flooring typically darkens when it is soaked in pet urine repeatedly, you can see the trouble spots to sands them out and refinish only those sections. You won't need a contractor to handle this. If the floor was refinished already, as you indicate, we're talking polyurethane, oil-based or water-based. A handyman can handle sanding the problem spots with a belt sander and refinishing them. The only exception to this would be if you put in a high-gloss water-based poly finish on those floors because you liked how it looked the most. In that case, have your guy rent a drum sander and edger and resand everything and refinish in semigloss oil-based poly (it's tougher and what we use for pet-friendly rentals).
To give you an idea of the real costs involved, a gallon of poly costs about $35. Belts for a 4x24 belt sander can be had 10 for $30. The most expensive belt sander for a spot-sanding job will cost $300 new. If you have to refinish the whole floor, that's going to cost more, but not the ridiculous price you were quoted.
The issue is NOT so serious.
He's responsible for all of it; urine and feces everywhere is not "normal wear and tear." That said, he is unlikely to offer it up willingly, you'll have to go to court. If you will, you'll have to collect, which is a full time job all in itself. I have a few judgements for these types of issues, but I've never seen a cent.
It comes back to proper screening, trusting your gut and getting them out asap if you have a problem. You even mention you let him stay two more months after you knew there was a major problem. You just can't operate that way. Time is of the essence.
Good luck!
You don't have to spell out every instance HOW a tenant can damage your unit, it is expected to be cared for within reason with the exception for normal wear and tear. Any court would find pet urine and feces to be considered damage. Maybe consider cash for keys next time (to get them out immediately without an eviction) and charge a higher deposit to move in. People who know they damage units will be completely opposed to a large deposit. As stated above, screening tenants is by far the most important thing you can do. Price your unit appropriately so you get lots of calls and weed out anyone who doesn't fit your strict screening criteria/minimum standards. Brandon Turner's book on rental property management would be a great resource for screening and managing your rental business. Good luck and keep moving forward!
Thanks all, yes this has been a learning experience in terms of tenant screening. In this case, he was highly educated with good credit and a background check, but I think his girlfriend (who owned the dogs) has some serious personal/hoarding issues.
Had I realized the issue was so serious, I would have evicted immediately. Another lesson learned.
@Corby Goade Regarding judgement, can you explain why you never saw any payment, despite getting a judgement in your favor? I have the patience to wait it out years if need be for creditors to hound him down, if I have to take a cut of the pay and hand it over for collections. Is it possible to obtain a property lien on a car, etc. that would have some kind of effect?
Hi @David Stone What is cash for keys - Referring to the deposit? thx Kelly
normally tenants have nothing never earn enough to garnish really.. and just move around a bunch..
its not like getting a judgement against folks that actually own something.. and or have tangible assets.
those judgements sell for pennies on the dollar to collection agencies.. PENNIES>
@Kelly McMillan, sure, with a judgement you can do any of that, but it's lots of work. Collection agencies usually charge somewhere around 50%, and that's IF they can get a penny out of your tenant. If they don't want to pay, it's really quite easy for them to not pay, just move from job to job, typically no assets worth seizing, etc. I doubt a lien on an 82 Corolla or an five year old Playstation will get you very far. This is why an ounce or prevention is so valuable. It's much easier to just start with a great tenant and not have to deal with this kind of garbage.
Trust me, I am not talking down to you, I've learned this the hard way.
@Kelly McMillan where are you getting that 6500 dollar figure from? Was that quoted to you by a contractor? That seems really high.
@Jim K. Got anything to add to this? I imagine there’s a cheaper way to fix this.
Kelly what part of Durham is this in?
Write these words on the wall over your desk:
Screening is important BEFORE they move in;
Inspections are critical AFTER they are living there.
It should never come as a surprise that you could smell the urine from a soaked floor from outside the door. Ya really can't mask that doggie/kitty smell without arousing suspicion as to why the air smells like a perfume factory. All you had to do was go and visit the property sooner. But I'm sure that will never happen again, right?
Try the Ozone treatment first. After that, leave dishes of white vinegar exposed throughout the house. You may be able to seal in any lingering smell with the proper floor finish; poly or spar varnish. Good luck.
OK.
So your contractor is telling you that the way to handle this is to tear out all the wood flooring in the apartment and then treat with ozone, and then put in a new wood floor.
This is insane, the home improvement equivalent of going into a Quickie Lube for a $30 oil change and coming out with a bill for $300. You should get multiple opinions about this problem AFTER you clean up and treat with ozone. You can buy a large-room ozone generator off Amazon for $100. Follow the directions.
Get that done, then see what the floor looks and smells like, Wood flooring typically darkens when it is soaked in pet urine repeatedly, you can see the trouble spots to sands them out and refinish only those sections. You won't need a contractor to handle this. If the floor was refinished already, as you indicate, we're talking polyurethane, oil-based or water-based. A handyman can handle sanding the problem spots with a belt sander and refinishing them. The only exception to this would be if you put in a high-gloss water-based poly finish on those floors because you liked how it looked the most. In that case, have your guy rent a drum sander and edger and resand everything and refinish in semigloss oil-based poly (it's tougher and what we use for pet-friendly rentals).
To give you an idea of the real costs involved, a gallon of poly costs about $35. Belts for a 4x24 belt sander can be had 10 for $30. The most expensive belt sander for a spot-sanding job will cost $300 new. If you have to refinish the whole floor, that's going to cost more, but not the ridiculous price you were quoted.
The issue is NOT so serious.
OK.
So your contractor is telling you that the way to handle this is to tear out all the wood flooring in the apartment and then treat with ozone, and then put in a new wood floor.
This is insane, the home improvement equivalent of going into a Quickie Lube for a $30 oil change and coming out with a bill for $300. You should get multiple opinions about this problem AFTER you clean up and treat with ozone. You can buy a large-room ozone generator off Amazon for $100. Follow the directions.
Get that done, then see what the floor looks and smells like, Wood flooring typically darkens when it is soaked in pet urine repeatedly, you can see the trouble spots to sands them out and refinish only those sections. You won't need a contractor to handle this. If the floor was refinished already, as you indicate, we're talking polyurethane, oil-based or water-based. A handyman can handle sanding the problem spots with a belt sander and refinishing them. The only exception to this would be if you put in a high-gloss water-based poly finish on those floors because you liked how it looked the most. In that case, have your guy rent a drum sander and edger and resand everything and refinish in semigloss oil-based poly (it's tougher and what we use for pet-friendly rentals).
To give you an idea of the real costs involved, a gallon of poly costs about $35. Belts for a 4x24 belt sander can be had 10 for $30. The most expensive belt sander for a spot-sanding job will cost $300 new. If you have to refinish the whole floor, that's going to cost more, but not the ridiculous price you were quoted.
The issue is NOT so serious.
This is why I tagged Jim. I think he just saved you 4000
Gallons of Natures Miracle pet odor cleaner (you can get it at pet stores) do a couple round of that. It is an enzyme that actually eats the urine. Pour it on, and let it soak and mop it off. Put it in a fertilizer sprayer and get the walls where a cat might spay and in the trim. You might still have damage to the finish. This also might lift a bit of the finish, especially in the spots where there are urine. You might also get away with this smell treatment and a good waxing of the floor. Best of Luck.
I love dogs, I like having them around, but I'm extra careful and always ask for multiple pet references from previous neighbors that shared a wall or a yard. I collect an extra deposit. Also, I always make it clear I'll be around a lot. Things like "I'm planning on moving into the other side of this duplex in July" or "I keep a lot of supplies in the shed, so I'll probably be back there about once/twice a month" Those comments seem to get a lot of people to self select out.
Cash for keys, simply put, is an agreement for the problem tenants to break their lease and move out and promising to give them their full deposit back (or any agreed upon amount) back once they are out. The reasoning is because a non-paying tenant or one who is racking up damages can cost you more than the act of paying them to vacate (pay them after they are out and locks are changed). It can be useful in some situations, not all.
If you do have to tear out the floors , get witnesses as to the smell , get independent pictures and a report and save lots of the wood removed in a plastic bag for the court to smell .
Proving a smell is hard
Thanks for the replies! Hello fellow Durham local, it's a unit near downtown Geer street area. A nice place, but transitional between good and bad tenants.
No, it wasn't the contractor. I had one odor company come out and tell me it wasn't worth ozone and the floors had to be ripped out. They didn't do that scope of work and said I would need to call a contractor. So if they wanted to pull one over on me they could have tried to sell me ozone... I asked them to write up their assessment in case I needed to filed a claim, and the manager got skittish and said no (weird).
So i've called two additional companies (restoration and an odor removal), to get independent assessments. I'm also considering allowing the tenant to call his own guy if he doesn't believe me. He's been asking about his deposit and I don't know when to notify him of the situation. (I have 30 days per deposit, but figured I should get a clear picture of whats going on before I set off a firestorm) It seems by giving him the opportunity to do his own assessment, I would have a solid standing in court. I know he will be at his current address for awhile. After I kicked them out, his mother bought him a house to live ... in her name. Good luck to her.
So I agree, I am shellshocked it's this bad and am trying to figure out if it would be a waste of money to ozone or sand the floors, only to find the smell isn't gone. I want to try your approach. But do you still think that's the case, if it is bad enough that a company passed on it? I don't see many urine spots perse, but the odor is everywhere.
Note: The $6500 came from the GC who does most of my work. I haven't looked into that quote yet, because I am still trying to get my ducks in a row to document *EVERYTHING* I'd need in court before I touch anything. I plan to get three flooring quotes. I have another for $7300 which is ridiculous. But is just to document prices for a judge. My guy is usually fair. Most of his quote was for materials. When I get a chance to look up prices myself it should be cheaper.
Anyway, your thoughts/input very much appreciated!
Kelly,
I think you have a lot of great suggestions in regards to the overall situation as well as how best to take care of the issues. My question is what you have communicated to the tenant so far after he has left.
I am unfamiliar with North Carolina tenant/landlord laws, but in California, after a tenant vacates the landlord has 21 days to return the security deposit along with a statement of itemized deductions. If the security deposit does not cover the damages, it should be clearly stated in the itemized statement. In addition, a demand letter for the remaining amount should be included with instructions on how and when to pay as well as what happens if you do not receive payment (court filing).
If you were in CA, your course of action would be to expeditiously get an estimate (I would suggest more if possible) that details the scope of work that is needed to restore the flooring of your rental unit. Include that estimate with the rest of the security deposit deductions in the itemized statement. Write a demand letter for the remaining amount. At your discretion, communicate with the tenant to try to get an amicable resolution. If the tenant is concerned about his credit and about being sued, then he may be cooperative.
But going back to my original question, do you know what requirements for landlord return of security deposit apply to you?
So I agree, I am shellshocked it's this bad and am trying to figure out if it would be a waste of money to ozone or sand the floors, only to find the smell isn't gone. I want to try your approach. But do you still think that's the case, if it is bad enough that a company passed on it? I don't see many urine spots perse, but the odor is everywhere.
The ozone company is aware that cleaning and an ozone treatment will not solve the whole thing, and they don't want multiple callbacks as you find problem areas where there is significant soaked-in urine stench that they are not capable of dealing with.
And keep in mind, with three dogs, your problems might not be fully confined to the floors. Some of it may be in the drywall, as our beloved canine friends have been known to lift a leg to do their thing. You may end up cutting out and replacing parts of the drywall/trim as well. No ozone treatment company is going to want to be involved in sanding your floors in places and cutting out pieces of your drywall and replacing your floor trim.
It costs nothing for the ozone treatment dude to pass on the job and recommend his draconian solution but he knows he's not qualified to make this assessment and that's why he refused to make it in writing, as you indicated.
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I cannot tell you what's going to happen with a North Carolina magistrate. But I can tell you that if I walked into a western PA magistrate's hearing room with a yearlong lease that stipulated a pet deposit for three dogs and a hearsay claim from an ozone treatment company that the stench is so bad from the three dogs and the additional single cat that the entire wood flooring of the property is going to need to be fully replaced, for $6-7K, I would not leave with an order directing my former tenant to pay the full amount.
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You have, however, solved a little mystery for me through this explanation. Let me make a guess as to the size of this apartment. This is a good-sized 1 bedroom or a cozy 2 bedroom, about 550 square feet. Your GC, when asked what it would cost to repair the floor, quoted you about $12 per square foot for demo, removal, new-floor installation, new stain-grade trim installation, finish-in-place. That is not a ripoff price. Your second guy quoted you $13 per square foot, also not a ripoff price. And BTW, neither of these quotes include any drywall removal and replacement, drywall finishing, or repainting.
Kelly, you're stuck in a tight spot, I get it. This is why I manage my own apartments and do all of my own flooring work, because I'd go broke in a hurry paying contractors for this kind of thing.
Given all this...
I would clean the apartment down to the nap, first and foremost. You're going to have to do that anyway.
You're going to pay $300 for three ozone generators, and once you have the ozone generators, you'll never pay an ozone company to do an ozone treatment in one of your properties and work around their schedule again. You've already been introduced to the level of sleaze common to many residential ozone treatment companies. I would buy the ozone generators and try it. If you decide that having three ozone generators is too much of a hassle for you, you can always sell them on craigslist and recoup a good bit of your investment.
After you're done, you're going to be in a much better place to make a true assessment of what it's going to cost to remediate the situation in full. You'll be better able to identify the problem areas and decide how you want to tackle them. Take photographs of darkened areas -- any magistrate who's done this for a while will know what pet spots on a hardwood floor look like. I think that's the fairest thing you can do for yourself, also for your former tenant, and when you go into the magistrate pointing out that you already took these steps rather than waste the court's time and patience with wholly unsubstantiated claims of extraordinary urine carnage, you'll be far better able to emphasize that you're not asking for something unreasonable, just the money to cover your expenses and to replace the drywall/refinish the floor HERE, HERE, and HERE.
Take your time to make a decision. You'll also have the resources of this community behind you to help determine whether this really sounds like a good way to go.
@Kelly McMillan. I would not replace the floors with new hardwoods. If you truly can’t sand it and fix it that way, I would replace it with cheaper flooring. Hardwoods can easily be damaged by another tenant.
And you mentioned the tenant and also having a girlfriend instead of saying two tenants. Make sure that in future that all residents (18 yrs and older) are screened and on the lease. And check with former landlords always. You want to make sure that everyone in the property passes your screening requirements and is held legally responsible for it. People still slip between the cracks but checking everyone in the home increases your odds of getting new tenants. I also have a policy that all pets must have proof that they are spayed or neutered. It cuts back on the marking with pee inside and shoes that the pet owners are at least responsible enough to have had their pets spayed or neutered.
Sorry that you are going through this.
In the area I rent it’s very difficult to not allow pets in the units, nearly 50% of my Potential tenants own a Dog or Cat, so I feel your pain.
With that being said pets can be a nightmare that we have to manage but it is manageable. Here’s what we do:
1.) Screen your tenants and get someone who is a clean FREAK. Our current tenant has a dog but as soon as you meet her you can tell not a single thing is out of place in her life. This woman couldn’t live in filth if you forced her too.
2.) Create a monthly pet fee. If you do this it shows that one you’re willing to work with your tenants instead of saying no I don’t take animals (which they appreciate dogs are some people’s children) and two if something happens you’re already ahead of the game for cost in damages.
3.) Force a higher security deposit. I usually do about 30% higher in a security deposit for pets that seems fair. If the unit is entirely carpets than I do 50%.
4.) Pet proof your home. I replace most of my carpet with laminate flooring. It’s cost effective, it’s much easier to clean then carpet, and the stench doesn’t soak into the fibers. There are some things you can’t do but taking that extra step will go a long way in not only improving the look of your home but also protecting wallet.
Bonus Tip: Dont discriminate against the animals. Some people charge more for large dogs. Guess what a small cats urine can make an entire house wreak for weeks. Unless you’re concerned about the large dog biting but that’s a whole other can of worms we can talk about on a different forum. A pet is a pet is a pet. Unless they have a small fish you charge them a flat fee. You do the things I mentioned above and in most scenarios you’ll be fine.
@Kelly McMillan
What I have done in the past is:
-Strip what soft materials need to go (carpets, underpad, drapes etc)
- urine neutralizer treatment. Lay poly over so it must soak in.
- ozone treatment, as mentioned these machines are dirt cheap and effective
-killz prime walls for painting, possibly subfloor too if needed.
- paint
- refloor it
- RE rent it.
I’ve had a couple situations like this. One by choice (as a purchase) and have never been let down by the above. This includes the purchase where the smell was so strong that when I removed the car seat that was soaked in years of cat piss from the basement it could literally be smelled from 40’ away once it was outside and in the back alley waiting for pickup... worst thing I’ve ever done as a hands on renovator... and one of the best roi to date.
i hate hearing stories like this, a-holes like this guy ruin it for all of us responsible pet owners out there
I've had between 1-9 rabbits at a time in my apartments and never left any damage or paid any cleaning fees, always got 100% of my deposit back.
Why is it so hard for for people to clean up after their pets?
Cash for keys, simply put, is an agreement for the problem tenants to break their lease and move out and promising to give them their full deposit back (or any agreed upon amount) back once they are out. The reasoning is because a non-paying tenant or one who is racking up damages can cost you more than the act of paying them to vacate (pay them after they are out and locks are changed). It can be useful in some situations, not all.
This is completely not applicable in a situation where you have a tenant with good credit. So if you screen tenants properly, you can avoid cash for keys. If you give someone cash for keys, you are paying them to leave and giving up rights to go after them for damages. If someone has good credit, take them to eviction court and go after them for damages. They may not pay the judgement immediately, but in the future if they want to repair their credit or buy a home, they will be forced to settle up with you. Worse yet, evictions and unpaid landlord judgments make it harder to rent. The tenant has more to lose than the landlord in eviction, so cash for keys is just a landlord taking a bad situation and making it worse.
The bigger problem with cash for keys is that it does not give you legal rights to your property. Only eviction gives you legal rights to force-ably remove people. So the risk is after you pay them cash, they come right back in the property (even break in) or you find a squatter moves in. Then you are going to eviction court and you are out the money. Do it right the first time.
There are extreme situations in certain states where cash for keys may be the best business decision, but I would pursue eviction first. Have an attorney involved before making any decision to "pay off" a tenant. Most landlords are handing cash back for no reason because they are scared of evictions. Go through a couple evictions and you will see they are fairly painless, assuming you followed the rules and document everything.
@Jim K. That is excellent advice, and dang, I am impressed with how spot on your numbers are. Both $12 and $12 dead on. I am going to try @Caleb Heimsoth 's idea on buying an ozone machine. Do either of you recommend a particular brand/model? Seems worth the investment, and I may end up needing it even if floors are replaced.
@Hubert Kim In NC it is 30 days, and I am working quickly to get all of those details put together, even if the work couldn't reasonably be complete in that time (unless I forged ahead and did the floors without doing due diligence on other options, which would be a bad idea). I've also read a clause that "if a landlord does not have time to accurately calculate the charges, there is 60 days", but I don't know how that is enforced, and if its possible to do before then, definitely will get it done. He otherwise cleaned the house top to bottom and is motivated to do a walk through. He may (likely) try to run off when he realizes the consequences, but my hope is he will try to find a solution, especially if full floor replacement can be avoided.
@Andrew Brewer completely agree. It makes me fully understand why landlords don't allow pets. I wanted to be a pro-pet landlord, within reason and careful screening. Now I am reflecting on if its worth it, because even people that appear to professionals with their life together can surprise you, to terrible consequences.
@Amy Beth girlfriend is also on the lease. I screened her as well, and include her on conversations but my interactions are primarily with him. I started to get the suspicion that she is having mental health problems, but they are young and I don't know how recent they started. I am sympathetic with their hard situation - people in my own family struggle as well. but they both still need to be responsible for the consequences.
Thanks for the replies! Hello fellow Durham local, it's a unit near downtown Geer street area. A nice place, but transitional between good and bad tenants.
No, it wasn't the contractor. I had one odor company come out and tell me it wasn't worth ozone and the floors had to be ripped out. They didn't do that scope of work and said I would need to call a contractor. So if they wanted to pull one over on me they could have tried to sell me ozone... I asked them to write up their assessment in case I needed to filed a claim, and the manager got skittish and said no (weird).
So i've called two additional companies (restoration and an odor removal), to get independent assessments. I'm also considering allowing the tenant to call his own guy if he doesn't believe me. He's been asking about his deposit and I don't know when to notify him of the situation. (I have 30 days per deposit, but figured I should get a clear picture of whats going on before I set off a firestorm) It seems by giving him the opportunity to do his own assessment, I would have a solid standing in court. I know he will be at his current address for awhile. After I kicked them out, his mother bought him a house to live ... in her name. Good luck to her.
So I agree, I am shellshocked it's this bad and am trying to figure out if it would be a waste of money to ozone or sand the floors, only to find the smell isn't gone. I want to try your approach. But do you still think that's the case, if it is bad enough that a company passed on it? I don't see many urine spots perse, but the odor is everywhere.
Note: The $6500 came from the GC who does most of my work. I haven't looked into that quote yet, because I am still trying to get my ducks in a row to document *EVERYTHING* I'd need in court before I touch anything. I plan to get three flooring quotes. I have another for $7300 which is ridiculous. But is just to document prices for a judge. My guy is usually fair. Most of his quote was for materials. When I get a chance to look up prices myself it should be cheaper.
Anyway, your thoughts/input very much appreciated!
I would recommend telling the tenant that there is a serious pet damage issue and you are working on getting estimates to remedy. If you do meet them at the property, be prepared for them to say, "I don't smell anything". From that perspective it is a waste of time to even meet them. Have someone independent remedy the problem. This is critical that you have a third party evaluate and charge you for the remedy, so you can bring receipts and witnesses to the odor to court. Otherwise you go to court and say it smelled bad, they say it didn't and it becomes a he said she said.
As far as remedy, a good first step is to mop the floor with natures miracle and let is sit. You can also use a mixture of vinegar and water. Mop, let the liquid sit 10 minutes, then mop it up. Use clean solution between mopping. You may need to do this several times. Make sure the windows are open to let the place air out. It is amazing how much that alone helps with smells. It is also important when using chemicals to have windows open. It is hard to say if the floors really need replacing. That is really all a contractor will do, so that is what they will quote. Assuming the floor had a good poly coat on it, it seems like replacing should not be necessary.
As others mentioned, run an ozone machine with the property closed up. I run it at night, then open all the windows to let it air out during the day. Be very careful with ozone machines because breathing the ozone can damage your lungs.
Honestly, it is probably best if you can hire this all done. Contact fire restoration and cleaning companies. Fire restoration companies use ozone machines regularly. Cleaning companies should be able to treat the floor. Maybe one can do both ideally. I have done this stuff myself in the past, but only because I had no chance of recovering damages. If you plan to go to court, you want receipts which means no DIY.