At what point is tenant not responsible for paint and carpet condition
Investor · Lucas, TX · Member since 2010 · 620 posts · 352 votes
At what point is tenant not responsible for paint and carpet condition
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Note Investor · Pasadena, CA · Member since 2009 · 849 posts · 544 votes
14yI personally would chalk it up to the cost of doing business. After 5 years, I would have planned to replace the carpet anyways. This might be an opportunity for you to look at going with something that lasts longer.
As to the paint, I always plan on spending some time/money on touch-up. For the next tenant, I would take pictures during the (before move-in) walk-through, so that you can reference them when you're doing the (move-out) walk-through.
26 Replies
- Note Investor · Pasadena, CA · Member since 2009 · 849 posts · 544 votes14y
I personally would chalk it up to the cost of doing business. After 5 years, I would have planned to replace the carpet anyways. This might be an opportunity for you to look at going with something that lasts longer.
As to the paint, I always plan on spending some time/money on touch-up. For the next tenant, I would take pictures during the (before move-in) walk-through, so that you can reference them when you're doing the (move-out) walk-through.
- Investor · San Ramon, CA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 569 votes14y
IMO, you already know the answer... both the paint and carpet were used to, or beyond their useful lives. I know others have deducted 40% of the carpet cost for people that have stayed 2 years, Jon Holdman I believe???
Frankly, I'd just be thrilled you had a tenant stay for 5 years... when you realize how much money you've made with 100% occupancy, no turn over costs, no "freshening up" costs... you'll gladly put in the new carpet and paint.
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes14y
Charging for a deprecated asset will be seen in a poor light IMO as normal wear and tear and is the cost of doing business. The judge here kicks that out. The damage deposit is not for normal wear. With that line of reasoning you could hit the tenant with 1/27.5 of the cost of the improvements each year!
OTH, gouges, holes, cracked or chiped trim, burned, ripped or cut carpet, if serious, is a damage and that's what the damage deposit is for. I'd also charge for negligent acts, had a tenant turn the water off to the hot water heater, took a long shower she said and then left on vacation, burning the elements out. She didn't turn the water on to the tank when she returned so the handyguy found it and found out what she had done. Could'a burned the place down! She paid to fix it.
I tried to understand how my home could be in such good shape considering how quickly the rentals get messed up. I took care of my place, tenants don't take care but shouldn't abuse, but some do. Cleaning a carpet extends the life, I have had tenants that didn't have a vacume cleaner! Just say'n...
- Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes14y
Just because the IRS says you can depreciate carpet over 5 yrs doesn't mean the life of your carpet is only 5 years.
Try to get a logical estimate for the life of that carpet and prorate accordingly IMO. 7 years is what I remember for a useful life.
You could try holding back 2/7 of what you paid. Don't roll over too easy. Or, you could be a little more picky about other damage.
Assume you should paint with each tenant. If you don't have to it is a freebie.
Had a PM that would hold back the entire cost of the carpet if it was wrecked, and if they squawked she would back down and prorate it.
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes14y
I lived in Germany renting a penthouse. My lease said that I had to leave the property exactly as I took it. When I left the manager wanted me to paint the place and turn it over no later than a week after it was repainted because the unit had been painted a week before I rented it! (Long story short, my commander didn't agree either and I checked out allowing part of my deposits for rent.....I was young)
Then I leased my first house and drew up a lease with that in it. I tried to collect rents and had to evict my second tenant and the judge gave me a tounge lashing and threw out my claim except for rents. That was in Louisianna and I know it doesn't fly in Missouri either. Now I understand the issue clearly and got wiser, seeing it as more of a landlord scam. I suggest you find out what is common in your area concerning deposits and stick to that and not get creative with the matter.
- Rental Property Investor · Mercer Island, WA · Member since 2008 · 22k+ posts · 14k+ votes14y
I did charge a tenant for trashing carpets. In my case, I used the IRS' 5 year depreciation timeline for flooring. The carpets had be in service for (IIRC) a little less than three years when they left, so I figured I had another two plus years of life. I only charged them for the two rooms they trashed, even though I replace the entire carpeted area with laminate. I've since heard people say three years is about all you can defend in front of a judge. In either case, I think you're on shaky ground charging them anything after five years.
Some tenants don't treat your house the same as you treat your own house. Some are really pretty good. Its just the way it is.
You might be surprised, too, with what you house looks like if you were to move everything out. Damage and dings happen a little at a time and we don't really notice. Pull everything out and every little thing becomes noticeable.
- Investor · Lucas, TX · Member since 2010 · 620 posts · 352 votes14y
Thanks for the replies.
It seems that we are all pretty much on the same page. I will go ahead as planned and not deduct these items.
Funny thing the tenant told me she wasn't expecting to get any of her security deposit back and with the above reasoning in mind I assured her that she would get some of it back. :)
Oh well, I might have put my foot in my mouth but I guess it is better to be honest and fair than try to scam a few extra bucks. You know, with karma and all that ...
- Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes14y
This is one of those things that's good to check in with your local land lord assoc. or PM assoc. because they are the ones who have experience to with your local judges. Many property management leases in my area spell out the life of carpet as 5 years and paint as 3 years, and anything that has to be replaced will be pro-rated. That comes from experience with courts giving LLs remedy for only what they think is reasonable. In other words if your tenant had been there four years, you could only charge her 20% for replacement carpet. Consider adding something to your lease so everyone is clear on carpet and paint life expectancy and the definition of normal wear and tear.
Additionally consider replacing the carpet with a truly washable and durable product. Even with cleaning, carpet traps organic matter and odors. It's one thing to live in your own house with carpeting or to sell a house with for OO use with new carpeting. But, IMO, living with a previous tenant's carpeting is disgusting. There are a lot of options besides carpeting these days.
- Investor · Smithville, MO · Member since 2014 · 160 posts · 19 votes7y
Sorry to drag up such an old post, but I was just mailed a letter from a previous landlord (we purchased our home 3+ years ago). The letter states we owe the property owner $4848.12. The majority of the expenses are $265 for carpet/pad removal ($265), carpet replacement ($4842.79), and painting $712.61.
For the record, we lived there from 2008 to 2015.
There is a clause in the lease that states if we live there for 1 year, we are responsible for 100% of the cost to repaint; 2yrs = 75%; 3 or more years = 50%. I signed the lease, so even though I would never include that in my leases to my tenants, I will pay the stupid tax.
However, I have a real issue with the carpet. We were there 7yrs and neighbor told us the carpet was at least 2 years old when we moved in. They want us to pay for 100% of the cost to replace. And, they have threatened to turn over me over to collections if I don't pay it.
Am I really going to have to hire an attorney for this? I would feel comfortable if he was taking me to court, but collection agencies don't care and will trash my credit in the meantime.
Thanks!
- 7yTheresa HarrisPro MemberMember since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
You moved out in 2015, that's over three years ago. I'd see if there is a lawyer who helps tenants. (or people that were tenants at the time).
The carpet would have been 11 years old. Who moved in after you and has been living there for the last 3+ years?
- Member since 2021 · 9 posts · 0 votes4y
Hi,
Can landlord charge me as a tenant the cost of replacement of whole house carpet after 5 years 9 months of tenancy? The whole house carpet was professionally cleaned and have pictures to prove that no damage to carpet. The landlord is asking me to pay for the whole carpet replacement, replace microwave and electric stove, paint the whole house, etc. and not returning security deposit. Landlord is stating there are some pet urine in the carpet padding with no possible evidence.
If I don't pay a balance of $9,000 (in 30 days) apart from what got deducted from security deposit, he will take me to small claim court.
What is the Pennsylvania law for rental carpet/appliances lifespan? IRS 2020 527 publication says 5 years in general. I am in the process of contacting a lawyer and have a reply letter mailed to the landlord.
I have been an excellent tenant for the last 6 years and paid rent on time even during pandemic. I have kept the exterior cleaned (lawn maintenance etc.).
Please advise. Thanks in advance.
- 4yColleen F.Pro MemberInvestor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
@Sou Mitra Sounds like it is worth to have him take you to court. What is withe the stove replacement?
- Member since 2021 · 9 posts · 0 votes4y
Originally posted by @Colleen F.:
@Sou Mitra Sounds like it is worth to have him take you to court. What is withe the stove replacement?
One of the lawyers I contacted said the same. He said it's best to sit tight right now and wait and see if they actually sue me. I am contacting another lawyer for a second opinion.
On a good faith I even had the whole house carpet professionally cleaned and shampooed. The letter from landlord says "stove was new upon move in, cook top was not cleaned properly and is ruined". The stove was cleaned except the burners accumulated little gunks near the burners, otherwise the stove was cleaned. When I moved in the stove was not even new rather it was clean. All appliances in the house were old and the carpet was shampooed by the landlord before I moved in, which indicated the carpet was old.
- 4yColleen F.Pro MemberInvestor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
@Sou Mitra you just want to wait for him to take you to court. After that amount of time he could not charge you for carpet. He can charge for repair if a stove is broken or missing but that isn't the case and it wouldn't be a new stove or microwave.
- Member since 2021 · 9 posts · 0 votes4y
I just consulted another attorney and she said I write a letter to the landlord saying the lease had limited clause. I should mention what's reasonable and what's not reasonable to pay from my security deposit. Based on the lifespan of carpet replacing the whole carpet does not hold any value in court. In the letter cc my lawyer's name.
- Member since 2021 · 9 posts · 0 votes4y
Originally posted by @Colleen F.:
@Sou Mitra you just want to wait for him to take you to court. After that amount of time he could not charge you for carpet. He can charge for repair if a stove is broken or missing but that isn't the case and it wouldn't be a new stove or microwave.
I just consulted another attorney and she said I write a letter to the landlord saying the lease had limited clause. I should mention what's reasonable and what's not reasonable to pay from my security deposit. Based on the lifespan of carpet replacing the whole carpet does not hold any value in court. In the letter my lawyer advised me to cc her.
- 4yColleen F.Pro MemberInvestor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
@Sou Mitra Go for it, the lawyer probably gave you some content but be clear and concise, don't ramble. Bullet point. My Security deposit was $ dollars, my tenancy was from x date to y date. You want the key points in there if he takes you to court because it will easier for the judge to rule in your favor. The useful life of a carpet is 5 years etc. Good Luck!! You are on solid ground and many states have 3 x damages for withholding a security deposit when you should not have.
- Member since 2021 · 9 posts · 0 votes4y
Originally posted by @Colleen F.:
@Sou Mitra Go for it, the lawyer probably gave you some content but be clear and concise, don't ramble. Bullet point. My Security deposit was $ dollars, my tenancy was from x date to y date. You want the key points in there if he takes you to court because it will easier for the judge to rule in your favor. The useful life of a carpet is 5 years etc. Good Luck!! You are on solid ground and many states have 3 x damages for withholding a security deposit when you should not have.
Here is the draft I prepared -
XXXX,
I have consulted a real-estate attorney, and I am cc-ing her with this email. The lease agreement on “ADDRESS” has limited security deposit clause.
My security deposit was $1,600
My tenancy was from Jan 16, 2016 to Sep 30, 2021 (approximately 5 years 9 months)
Please see the points below for the charges that are reasonable to me and can be charged against my security deposit, and charges that are not reasonable.
Things that are NOT reasonable to me -
A) Replace the stove (stove was new upon move in, cook top was not cleaned properly and is ruined)
Cost onRange $725.81, Delivery and Install $202.26, Total $958.07 + 57.48 sales tax. $1015.55 Haul away old $30.00. Grand Total $1045.55
My remarks: Landlord should have provided me very specific cleaning instructions on the day of inspection. The landlord could charge me for repair if a stove is broken or missing.
B) Replace the microwave (both microwave and stove are grease covered and unsalvageable) Cost $312.55,
Delivery & Install $149.00 Total $461.55 + $29.49 sales tax Grand Total $491.04
My remarks: If it was dirty, charging for cleaning would be reasonable but not a replacement.
C) Patching the wall nail holes, primer sealing the crayon marks, and primer sealing burn wall and ceiling of
2nd floor bedroom. Remove damaged/torn wallpaper. $950.00
My remarks: Paint and wallpaper has already reached it’s useful life.
D) Remove & replace carpet (See enclosed estimate) while you paid to have the carpeting cleaned, there is still
a smell of dog urine throughout the home. Upon further inspection, the urine permeated the carpeting, padding
and wood flooring throughout the home. All carpeting and padding need to be removed and replaced. $6,956.00
My remarks: The carpet has already reached it’s useful life.
Things that are reasonable to me and can be deducted from security deposit -
A) Rat problem in the basement. (as per your lease agreement, pest control is the responsibility of the tenant)
$375.00
B) Replace 2 broken window well covers @ $68.00 each. $136.00
My remarks: Only one window well cover was broken at the time of move-in and I have pictures
C) Clean entire home including scrubbing floors, bathroom, windows, window sills and base boards. $330.00.
D) Replace window blinds that were new upon your move in X's 10 @ $40 each. $400.00
My remarks: When I moved in there were a total of 5-6 blinds installed and you are charging me for 10 blinds. You can charge me for 4 blinds. I have move-in and move-out pictures.
E) Replacing 2nd floor bath light fixture. $35.00
My remarks: I had mentioned the landlord that the light fixture was missing a screw which holds them on Sep 30th.
I would appreciate if you could kindly deduct the reasonable charges ($901) I mentioned above, and return the balance of security deposit of $699. Please note on a good faith I have already got the whole house carpet professionally cleaned and shampooed paying $225 before I handed the keys to the landlord.
Regards,
My Name
Cc: Mr XXX, Esq.
- 4yColleen F.Pro MemberInvestor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
@Sou Mitra I sent you a bunch of comments. Curious did they put in a new stove and microwave too?
- Member since 2021 · 9 posts · 0 votes4y
Originally posted by @Colleen F.:
@Sou Mitra I sent you a bunch of comments. Curious did they put in a new stove and microwave too?
They did put in a new microwave, dishwasher and a stove.
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes4y
Originally posted by @Robert Steele:
I had a tenant move out after 5 years and the carpets are absolutely trashed. They were brand new when they moved in. I know the IRS assumes carpets are only good for 5 years so I am thinking I should not deduct this from their security deposit as they are already beyond their useful life. On the other hand when I moved into my primary residence the carpets were not new and they still were not trashed 10 years later ...
Similarly they have put lots of marks on the walls and doors. The worse part is they tried to cover them up with mismatched paint. In fact it looks like they tried to partially paint some walls. Close color match but looks bad to the eye. All the walls and doors were freshly painted when they moved in. Again I have read that paint should only last 2 years and anything beyond that you cannot deduct from the security deposit. On the other hand I lived in my house for 10 years and the walls did not need repainting ...
I would appreciate hearing from fellow landlords that have had experience with these kinds of situations.
I think you're getting some pretty bad advice here.
You are allowed to charge for anything above "ordinary wear-and-tear" from the tenant. This has nothing to do with depreciation from an IRS table because you are not depreciating it for a tax write-off; you are determine whether the damage is beyond "ordinary wear-and-tear" whic is a different standard. The life-span of carpet is at least ten years, but it really depends on the quality of the material, quality of workmanship during installation, and other factors. I have homes with 30-year-old carpet that looks brand new after ten years of multiple renters. If you look at HUD or Inter-NACHI, they have life-expectation tables that are 7-10 years for carpet and at least five for paint. But do you know any owner-occupied homes that are painted and carpeted every five years? Ridiculous.
In your case, I would charge the tenant for at least 50% of replacement cost, including materials and installation. I would charge them for repairing and repainting the walls (this may include spackling, texture, and painting). If they were really good in all other aspects, I may be a little more gracious. If they were bad in other respects, broke their lease, or otherwise left on bad terms, then I'm more likely to err in my favor.
If you're standing in front of a judge, he will quite possibly have a different answer. But if you have evidence the paint and flooring was new when they moved in and trashed when they moved out, the odds of a tenant fighting you are incredibly low. I manage 400 rentals and have had thousands of renters. I have never, ever had a renter take me to court over deposit deductions. In fact, I only get 1-2 a year that even push back on charges because I take very detailed before/after pictures and can prove my case in court.
Take that as you wish.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews - 4yColleen F.Pro MemberInvestor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
@Nathan Gesner This was posted 9 years ago but recently revived by @Sou Mitra on the deductions her landlord made from her security deposit asking her to pay the cost for a re-carpet microwave and stove. She should have started her own thread but people sometimes don't realize this. Maybe @Robert Steele will tell us what he did in the end.
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes4y
Originally posted by @Colleen F.:
@Nathan Gesner This was posted 9 years ago but recently revived by @Sou Mitra on the deductions her landlord made from her security deposit asking her to pay the cost for a re-carpet microwave and stove. She should have started her own thread but people sometimes don't realize this. Maybe @Robert Steele will tell us what he did in the end.
That's weird. I didn't see anything after Robert's post from nine years ago! And I obviously didn't see they were nine years old. Thanks!
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews - Member since 2021 · 9 posts · 0 votes4y
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
Originally posted by @Colleen F.:
@Nathan Gesner This was posted 9 years ago but recently revived by @Sou Mitra on the deductions her landlord made from her security deposit asking her to pay the cost for a re-carpet microwave and stove. She should have started her own thread but people sometimes don't realize this. Maybe @Robert Steele will tell us what he did in the end.
That's weird. I didn't see anything after Robert's post from nine years ago! And I obviously didn't see they were nine years old. Thanks!
Hi Nathan,
Sorry to jump on an old thread.
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