Extremely arrogant and offensive tenant - how to deal?

Extremely arrogant and offensive tenant - how to deal?

Boston, MA · Member since 2011 · 23 posts · 0 votes

What is the correct way to deal with a tenant that gets extremely offensive in both emails and in person? Basically 2 out of the 3 people in the apartment act this way, 1 is much much worse.

He has not physically threatened (as he understands the consequences) but speaks with a demeaning, condescending and hateful manner every time, on email and in person.

Apparently if there is an issue, like a broken toilet chain or broken blind, instead of fixing it the same day the tenants report it, I get to it within 2 days, maybe 3. There are 2 full bathrooms in the apartment. None of these issues have been an emergency. They think I should fix it right away as if I sit on the porch waiting for something to occur.

In fact there was an emergency issue, where an ice maker line busted at 10pm, and they decided to email me instead of calling me. They called me at 8am the following day, by then there was a lot of damage to the drywall in the unit below. But I never said anything to them about their carelessness and negligence.

They have a lease until 8/31 and I have their last month's rent and security deposit. But he threatens to leave the place before then and wants his last month's rent and full security deposit back.

Also, what are the guidelines for entering the apartment for an inspection as a landlord/property manager living next door? I live in Massachusetts.

His manner when addressing me disturbs me the most. But they all pay the rent on time.

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Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2009 · 89 posts · 44 votes
14y

Okay, so you've got an obnoxious %$#@!. They pay the rent on time. If they're not causing trouble to the other tenants, I leave them be. They're still a tenant and I'm still the owner who is getting rich off of them. All of the rudeness in the world doesn't change any of those facts.

Now, should you respond faster? Yes, at least a follow-up within 12 hours that you're aware of the issue and will fix it on x date at y time. Not an excuse for being a %$#@!, but I will say that your response could use a slight change. (If you're already doing this but didn't write about it, I apologize and withdraw the suggestion.)

Was it THEIR negligence that caused the break in the line? If so, I'd evict and take their entire security. If it wasn't their fault- they notified you. It may not have been how you liked, but they did notify you. That's not their problem.

You hold the cards with their deposit and rent. If you don't like them that much, don't renew their lease. If they leave early and there's a 1-year lease, you get free rent and potentially security (subject to state/local rules).

I don't know MA rules. Frankly, if you don't either, that's a MUCH bigger problem than anything you've mentioned here. I strongly recommend that you consult with a COMPETENT landlord/tenant attorney to learn the legal ropes. You'll be QUICKLY hung with those ropes if you don't know your local, county, state, and federal housing laws.

Sincerely,

Mike

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  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    14y

    I have had tiffs before with a few, but sometimes you gotta get stuff done on your own tuffness......not physical, but mental. A bully doesn't take well to being bullied back or put in their place quickly. I suggest you get some fire in the belly and the eye of the tiger, you also need thick skin in RE. Set the rules, the expectations and enforce them.

    Your lease should address damages from neglect, like failing to turn the water off as well as provisions for them paying for such damages as a result.

    My leases had an adminstrative fee in addition to rents, the agreement basically said that for and in consideration of not having to provide additional adminstrative oversight I agreed to rent at that rental rate. If they caused additional adminsitrative functions, phone calls from neighbors, not taking the trash carts in, leaving stuff in the yards, having to address minor issues usually taken care of by the tenant being a reasonable person.....I'd ding them with a fee and it became part of the rents then due and if that rent was not fully paid, they were in default and I could terminate the lease! I could basically fine them for causing me more work or headaches based on the time they took.

    Good luck...

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2009 · 89 posts · 44 votes
    14y

    Okay, so you've got an obnoxious %$#@!. They pay the rent on time. If they're not causing trouble to the other tenants, I leave them be. They're still a tenant and I'm still the owner who is getting rich off of them. All of the rudeness in the world doesn't change any of those facts.

    Now, should you respond faster? Yes, at least a follow-up within 12 hours that you're aware of the issue and will fix it on x date at y time. Not an excuse for being a %$#@!, but I will say that your response could use a slight change. (If you're already doing this but didn't write about it, I apologize and withdraw the suggestion.)

    Was it THEIR negligence that caused the break in the line? If so, I'd evict and take their entire security. If it wasn't their fault- they notified you. It may not have been how you liked, but they did notify you. That's not their problem.

    You hold the cards with their deposit and rent. If you don't like them that much, don't renew their lease. If they leave early and there's a 1-year lease, you get free rent and potentially security (subject to state/local rules).

    I don't know MA rules. Frankly, if you don't either, that's a MUCH bigger problem than anything you've mentioned here. I strongly recommend that you consult with a COMPETENT landlord/tenant attorney to learn the legal ropes. You'll be QUICKLY hung with those ropes if you don't know your local, county, state, and federal housing laws.

    Sincerely,

    Mike

  • Boston, MA · Member since 2011 · 23 posts · 0 votes
    14y

    I always reply the email within a few hours (2-3 hrs), and state that I am working on the issue. I work a regular FT job.

    I can easily retaliate with similar fashion and yell, scream vulgar playground talk, but that wont get either party no where. I choose not to.

    Their negligence did not cause the break in the line, but the negligence was that they chose to email me instead of calling or even texting me. Not everyone has a smartphone to check emails 24/7.

    Im a noobie as a landlord, only <1 yr experience.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Chootar Laal:
    I always reply the email within a few hours (2-3 hrs), and state that I am working on the issue. I work a regular FT job.

    I can easily retaliate with similar fashion and yell, scream vulgar playground talk, but that wont get either party no where. I choose not to.

    Their negligence did not cause the break in the line, but the negligence was that they chose to email me instead of calling or even texting me. Not everyone has a smartphone to check emails 24/7.

    Im a noobie as a landlord, only <1 yr experience.

    I didn't mean to imply you act that way, on your own tuffness is standing your ground, making the rules and insisting they comply, it's the psychology behind it with a bully, not getting into a fight or a yelling match......

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2009 · 89 posts · 44 votes
    14y

    Okay, VERY cool on the response time! I can take up to 12 hours, and I'm with you on the full time job.

    And VERY cool about not getting into a pissing contest with a skunk! Excellent work by NOT lowering yourself to their level! That said, never forget that you're not a subordinate. Real leaders never stoop lower, but they still carry themselves as leaders.

    There's zero negligence in their notification unless your lease specifically states acceptable methods of contact. You can call it whatever you want, but a judge or court commissioner is going to call it fine. Sucks, but it's reality. Chalk it up to an expensive lesson learned (we've all been there) and learn for your new future leases.

    We've all been new- it's how we become old hands. :) Welcome to the fold, fix your leases to specify what communication works for you, and learn your local laws. Not knowing the laws is an open invitation to be used and abused by tenants. I advise paying good real estate attorney for 2 hours of time. Come prepared with a LONG list of questions about landlording rules and laws that includes "What should I know that I don't know enough to ask?"

    Sincerely,

    Mike

    Originally posted by Chootar Laal:
    I always reply the email within a few hours (2-3 hrs), and state that I am working on the issue. I work a regular FT job.

    I can easily retaliate with similar fashion and yell, scream vulgar playground talk, but that wont get either party no where. I choose not to.

    Their negligence did not cause the break in the line, but the negligence was that they chose to email me instead of calling or even texting me. Not everyone has a smartphone to check emails 24/7.

    Im a noobie as a landlord, only <1 yr experience.

  • Investor · El Dorado Hills, CA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    14y

    I hate to say it but you need thicker skin and that only comes with time and experience. After a few years, huffing and puffing by a tenant won't even be a blip on your radar. You are the property owner and you make the rules (within the law), you cannot them misunderstand the situation and think they are calling the shots. You don't want to be confrontational but you also cannot give in just because somebody is trying to bully you. If this type of stuff really bothers you, you should probably look into hiring a property managers. That is not a bad thing, not everybody is cut out to deal with tenants.

  • West, MI · Member since 2012 · 674 posts · 182 votes
    14y

    I have been called about everything under the sun it seems to go in one and come out the other ear. Its part of the game, wait till someone destroys a unit, the key is stay calm and be sure to get the police involved to reference a incident number later. It sounds like this is nothing though, just another, get over it or get out the business.

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2011 · 355 posts · 90 votes
    14y

    That shouldn't have anything to do with it. If it does, you should strongly consider a professional manager - I use them for this very reason.
    No, not everyone does - but you should. Just make sure that it's working for you, not you for it.
    Are you sure you want that job? 'Cause that's what it is - and you've already got one. I don't, which is why I hire professionals. It's expensive, but if it makes or breaks the deal then it's a BAD DEAL anyway. You should always have room to pay a manager, whether yourself or someone else. I pay my managers a lot, but much less than I would have to pay myself to justify the work.
  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    14y

    It's all in what type of investor you are.What kind of headache will you live with for what kind of return??

    So you live in one of the units or a building next door?? I am assuming you used an FHA loan to buy a duplex to a fourplex with minimal down ??

    Sounds like you have a tame tenant.I have had much worse than that to deal with.

    If they are yelling and screaming at you inform them you will have no further contact with them until they can talk to you with decency and respect.

    You do not have to stand there and listen to abuse.It usually brings them in line or when they get the eviction notice they change their tune.

    If they aren't going to change anyway then there is no sense in listening to it.

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2009 · 89 posts · 44 votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Joel Owens:

    If they are yelling and screaming at you inform them you will have no further contact with them until they can talk to you with decency and respect.

    I'll caution you that some courts will look at that as abandoning responsibility or refusing to communicate with the tenant. I've found that a totally blank look, repeating "uh huh" a lot, and asking them to boil it down usually does the trick.

    Mike

  • Joshua D.Pro Member
    BiggerPockets Founder · HI · Member since 2008 · 16k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    14y

    Chootar Laal -
    Here are a few articles that should come in handy for this situation, and will likely help with future tenants as well:

    - 6 Suggestions on How to Avoid Being Dominated by Your Tenants
    - Tenants: Customers or Scum?
    - How to Deal with Problem Tenants: Keeping to YOUR Agenda

    - 8 Tips For Screening Out Professional Tenants: Your Worst Nightmare!
    - The Ultimate Guide to Screening Tenants

    The key is to make sure your tenants know that you're in charge, and for you to stick to your lease. As others have said, abusive tenants are par for the course; how you handle yourself is going to be key.

    You'll get it sorted out; don't let the nastiness weigh on you too much.

  • Boston, MA · Member since 2011 · 23 posts · 0 votes
    14y

    Thanks for the input all.

    My lease is weak I suppose, does anyone have a lease I can purchase?

  • Real Estate Investor · Virginia, DC &, MD · Member since 2008 · 261 posts · 71 votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Chootar Laal:
    Thanks for the input all.

    My lease is weak I suppose, does anyone have a lease I can purchase?

    We got ours off the internet from the local Realtors Association. It will include any important local considerations from your area. Best of all it's free. We add a cover sheet which we have the tenants initial that has important dates and rules outlined. Plus it has emergency contact numbers for us.

  • Real Estate Investor · Virginia, DC &, MD · Member since 2008 · 261 posts · 71 votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Chootar Laal:
    Thanks for the input all.

    My lease is weak I suppose, does anyone have a lease I can purchase?

    Mr Google found it
    http://www.athomere.com/pdf/ApartmentLease.pdf

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2009 · 89 posts · 44 votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Chootar Laal:
    Thanks for the input all.

    My lease is weak I suppose, does anyone have a lease I can purchase?

    That's a good link, but here's a thought.

    How much did that water episode cost? How about the building itself?

    I found an excellent real estate attorney who specializes in landlord/tenant law and paid him 400.00 cash for two hours of time. I came prepared with a LONG list of questions about landlording rules and laws. My last question was "What should I know that I don't know enough to ask?" The answers my attorney provided have saved me easily 10x the amount I paid.

    I also had him review the state boilerplate lease and asked "What should I change, add, or remove?" I ended up handing him another $200.00 and he created a few addendums to the lease that have saved me a LOT of trouble.

    600.00 to secure your investment is peanuts. I strongly advise you to consider time with an competent real estate attorney. Start with two hours of time and get more if you need.

    You're on your way with the boilerplate. But get those two hours- they're beyond valuable to you and to your future success.

    Mike

  • Boston, MA · Member since 2011 · 23 posts · 0 votes
    14y

    so this troublesome tenant has moved out, but left the place non-vacuumed and not cleaned at all. i am charging him for cleaning to come out of the security deposit. but now he does not agree and says he will come to my house in person to collect it. i told him not to bother. but he continues to harass me over email. and he also wants to meet the new tenants and tell them stories about how "bad" of a person i am charging him clean up fees.
    if he shows up, what can i do? call police? is it even worth the hassle? i have a wife and children, cant take the risk. although i dont think he will cause any physical harm, he yells vulgarities.

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    14y

    I would call the police if someone came harrassing me at my house. He is no longer your tenant. Be clear about the deduction - itemize it along with the remaining refund. Send his emails to spam. It will not last forever.

    Avoiding challenges from tenants is one of the reasons to represent yourself as the property manager and not the owner. Thank you can point at the invisible man behind the scenes. I have learned this lesson myself. Not to say you should not learn to deal with conflict, but why deal with it when there is no need to?

    You really let this guy get your goose. You need to learn to master your fears. He obviously smells the fear in you. Just stay calm and don't change your position and he will eventually go away. If you have to go to court, so be it. Better to go to court and learn a lesson than to be a coward and replace the fear of court with the fear of this guy.

    The fact that the guy just didn't clean the unit (which is expected) rather than trash it out tells me he's all bluff.

    As far as him meeting the new tenants, I guess its a free country, but I doubt it will happen. And so what if it does. You can call the police on him for trespassing. If it got real bad you could get a restraining order.

    If you need a psychological boost, just consider why this guy is so angry. He feels hopelessly powerless as you are the "rich and powerful landlord" and he is just a scrub who can't afford to by his own house. If you were to assert yourself with some confidence (which requires you to know your legal position) he would back down and slither away quickly in most likeliness.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    14y

    WHY are you not using a P.O. Box for your address ??

    I would file an incident report of being threatened with the police.
    This way you have something on record in case another event happens you can show a pattern.

    I believe the tenant is trying to intimidate you to get some of the deposit back.

    Keep your emotions in check and communicate everything in writing.Once the former tenant see you cannot be intimidated or manipulated they most just move on.

  • Property Manager · Kissimmee, FL · Member since 2012 · 68 posts · 8 votes
    14y

    Stop replying to his emails, block his email address, don't answer his phone calls (don't even listen to his messages) and make sure to communicate with him via USPS delivered mail (using Certified Return Receipt mail delivery) only. Put your foot down and make him understand (with actions not words) that he has pushed as far as he will with you. Properly sever ties with him and forget about his sorry self.

    If he shows at your house, warn him to get off your property and then call the police. Leave him outside and don't open the door. If he shows up and talks to the new tenants, I'm sure you'll hear about it. Simply tell them the truth and suggest that they call the police if he shows up again. If you build a good relationship with them, they really won't want to hear what this gasbag has to say.

    I despise bullys and that is what this guy is. I personally would not talk to the guy ever again except through the mail, period. He is under your skin and you just need to be measured in your responses to him, hence using USPS mail. If he has an issue with your deductions against the security deposit, then he can take it through the proper legal channels. Don't let him intimidate you into returning one penny more than he is due. That is what he is hoping to do.

  • Boston, MA · Member since 2011 · 23 posts · 0 votes
    14y

    Well, I cant mail him the security deposit back because he refuses to send me his mailing address / forwarding address. So he wants me to send it to someone else's place. If I do the USPS certified type, doesn't he has to show ID to prove he lives there to receive it?

  • Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
    14y

    It should be in your lease agreement that he has to provide you with a forwarding address. If not, just tell him you need him to provide to you, in writing, his forwarding address. If he refuses, he will either have to come pick it up in person or he can't get it. It is not your concern if the address he provides you with is his or Santa Clause's. You send the refund verifiable mail, meaining the post office will mail a little green slip - not the check - to the address he gives you. He will then have to take that little green slip to the post office and show his ID to get the package. The post office will then provide you with a reciept that he did this and that is all you need to have to prove you mailed it and he picked it up. If the post office doesn't let him pick it up, that is his problem because, remember, you require him to provide his forwarding address to you in writing. I wouldn't be afraid to hand him his check in person - especially if it meant being rid of him.

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    14y

    Check what your state landlord tenant law says regarding return of deposits. It might say that you have so many days to return it to the forwarding address given by the tenant. If no forwarding address, then the Post Office will forward it if you send it to the former address (assuming this person sent in a change of address to the Post Office). Just follow the law so you aren't penalized (some places say 3x deposit must be returned if not within the deadline for returning it). Don't let this guy drag things out to force you into that penalty.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    14y

    As to what Steve says that is what you need to do.Take emotion and being upset that another human being would do this to you out of the equation.

    Follow your local landlord tenant law steps.Do not deviate and document everything.I know you just wish to do what this guy says to get him out of your hair but it will come back to bite you later on.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    14y

    We have all seen much,much worse. If this gets to you then you might look at more passive forms of RE investing where you do not worry about such things.

  • Investor · Nottingham, NH · Member since 2011 · 35 posts · 12 votes
    14y

    Well, the good news is he moved out. If they do not supply forwarding address I just send security disposition notice to his last known address. (your apt.) When it comes back to you undeliverable, don't open it. Just stick it in his file in case trouble later on.
    I have had a few tenants like this in the past. You just can't make everyone happy. I call them infections... They bad mouth the landlord, soon the rest of the building is feeling uneasy. I usually try to get them out asap. I offer them the "happy clause". Your not happy and I'm not happy so why don't I consider this your 30 day notice. Usually they begin to play nice or move. If they don't move or play nice I raise the rent.
    Rent On...

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