30 day notice? I feel like Being the nice guy is not working.

30 day notice? I feel like Being the nice guy is not working.

Rental Property Investor · Mckinleyville, CA · Member since 2018 · 43 posts · 17 votes

I have a few rentals and am just getting started with this as a full time gig. So I'm very green in this space of operation. I keep running into the same issue of tenants moving out without giving proper 30 day notice. I'm fishing for insight and advice on how to deal with no proper notice to vacate a space. It's leaving me with unwanted vacancy and incredibly inconvenient extra payments on spaces i'm trying to fill. I know this is all part of the job and I understand all the reasons people vacate but I'm still left with the awkward situation of having to make judgment calls. Currently I'm doing the classic “House Hack” if you will, with one property I own. (I'm renting an extra bedroom in my house) its rented to a 60 year old woman who is very sweet but is running into some sort of respiratory issues due to what she says could be traces of mold. We also have a wood stove that could be contributing to the issue with traces of smoke lingering into her room. She just moved in at the beginning of the month so it's been less than 10 days. She is telling me she is having to immediately move out due to health issues that could be linked to the house and traces of mold. I have never heard anything like this from anyone else staying in that room. Our lease clearly states that a 30 day notice is required for either party to terminate the agreement. We are on a month to month agreement. She is requesting that I give her the money back for the remainder of the month. Obviously It's a difficult decision for me because I want to be a nice guy. On the other hand I also don't want to get walked on by all my tenants. It seems like a risky liability with it being linked to health issues. Although if someone told me they couldn't work due to health issues I would tell them the rent is still due. Am I in the wrong to ask her to give her official 30 day notice and keep the rent money for the month?

Morally i'm ok with saying that although legally i'm not sure how it would play out as its linked to what she is saying could be trace mold in the home. There are no mold issues as far as I can tell. I would not be writing this if this was not continuously occurring.

Another issue that is closely linked to this is the dilemma i'm having for how much to charge for a deposit and whether or not to charge last month's rent. In the past I had charged first month, last month and security deposit. Recently someone stated that I can not charge over 2 months rent total for all three of those combined. With this particular space rent is 600 for the room I was originally asking first last and deposit.(utilities included) Which would be a total of $1800. The son of the woman who just moved in who was doing all the talking with me on letting her move in informed me that what I was trying to charge was illegal. ( I'm in California) so I only charged a total of $1200 which was two months rent (First month and deposit). I was also nice enough to let him pay the security deposit over a period of two months. as in 900 to move in, then 900 the second month to fill the extra 300 required for the remainder of the security deposit. As much as I've read about it he seems to be correct.

Apologies for the long winded description but I'm making a lot of mistakes and enjoying learning from them.

Any advice would be appreciated. Don’t hold back!

Tell me I'm being an idiot if you feel. I want constructive criticism. I often question my “nice guy” decisions.

Thanks!

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
6y

No offense, but this isn't because you are a "nice guy". It's because you're a sucker. You're falling for some very common sob stories. 

This woman moved in and decided she doesn't want to live there. She's using the mold and respiratory issues as an excuse to escape her bad decision without penalty. Simply tell her she is required to give 30 days notice. If she wants to move out now, you keep the 30 days worth of rent and refund any remaining deposit or unused portion of rent. Simple.

Educate yourself on mold. It's everywhere, even in the air outside in the freshest country breeze. Even if you did have mold, it usually doesn't create health problems although it may irritate an existing health problem. It's unlikely she would be suffering so quickly unless the mold spores were abundant and exposed. It's something most people only hear (false) horror stories about and so people will use a Landlord's lack of education to manipulate the situation.

As for the legality, you are under no obligation. If mold were a concern, you can have the home tested to verify. If it were verifiable, she has to give you the opportunity to remedy it, which is very simple and not expensive unless you have a major issue. She doesn't get to claim mold and just walk away, just like she can't break the lease if the stove stops working. Tenants have a responsibility and that includes allowing the owner to verify the problem and then remedy it.

As for the deposit, you need to educate yourself on the law, particularly if you are in California, which I believe is the most heavily regulated state in our great nation. Buy a copy of "Every Landlord's Legal Guide - California Edition" by NOLO. You'll thank me later.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Lawrence, MA · Member since 2020 · 252 posts · 153 votes
    6y

    Hi Brandon,  

    Reading your story,  looks like you are going through a lot. Before renting units where I live,  I was looking into the whole landlord stuff,  because it is so much and I didn't have anyone to tell me what I needed to do.  While repairing the units, I got prepared.  I even took a landlord class,  and it helped me.  I don't know if you have done some research on your own. But one thing I know is that we will never stop learning whether it is good or bad. I'm looking forward for more advice from our BP family! Take care. 

  • Investor · Topeka, KS · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    1.  If this is happening regularly you need to do a better job at screening your tenants.

    2. You need to talk to a local landlord/tenant attorney and find out about local laws.

    3.  I charge first months rent and deposit.  I haven't ever tried to get last months rent.  That seems like a ton of money for the tenant to have to try and come up with.

    4.  All tenants are experts in mold and all mold is black mold and all tree limbs are moments from falling on the house.  You could have a local company come out and inspect for mold and air quality but ultimately the lady want to leave.  You could tell her you are willing to let her out of the lease but can't refund any rent she has paid.  

    5.  Again, you really need to talk to an attorney to make sure you are not breaking any laws.

  • Ned J.Pro Member
    Investor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y
    For the amount of time of tenancy and the $$ involved....combined with the age and "health concerns" ploy, I would let her walk with the prorated rent $$ and let it go..... not worth a fight.... move on My other advice..... NEVER....EVER...... EVER......EVER let people make "payments" on a deposit....... ALL $$ up front or no deal ..... PERIOD. Once they have moved in, you lose ALL your leverage and they will stall and BS you to the end of days and getting the $$ will be like pulling teeth. I'm in CA and do first month and deposit plus pet deposit if applicable. No last months rent. UP FRONT....ALL in verified $$ before a lease is signed and keys turned over
  • Rental Property Investor · Mckinleyville, CA · Member since 2018 · 43 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    @Jacob Sampson Thanks for the advice! I need to screen tenants more for sure. Ironically the last two people to not give proper notice was a family member and then a friend. I like the advice to talk to a lawyer but id rather just give her the money back almost. It would probably cost the same if not more to have a sit down with a lawyer. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Mckinleyville, CA · Member since 2018 · 43 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    @Ned J.  You seem right on about just giving her the money back. Its a very small amount of money and doesn't seem worth the fight as you mentioned. I guess I was more curious if I was obligated to or not. About the payments on the deposit, I was just telling myself the same thing. It makes no sense to have payments toward the security deposit. I'm just setting everyone up to fail with accepting an agreement like that.

    Is it true that I can use some of the deposit as last months rent in a situation where someone vacated and did not give 30 day notice though? 

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    6y

    Wait until after she moves out to return her deposit. You don't know how she will leave the unit and if there are cleaning and other costs you will incur.

  • Rental Property Investor · Mckinleyville, CA · Member since 2018 · 43 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    @Sandy Gabin Thanks for advice on a study course. I have been studying by reading books and forums on bigger pockets. I didn't want to pull the trigger on renting for about two years because I was afraid of making mistakes. Now id rather just learn by doing. Its quite the learning curve for me though I would totally take some land lording classes. I live in a really rural part of California and have not heard of anything like that offered where im located but im going to look into it now for sure. I have been attending a local meetup we started with some BP members. I will bring that up at the next meetup for sure thanks for the advice.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Lawrence, MA · Member since 2020 · 252 posts · 153 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Brandon Shoults:

    @Sandy Gabin Thanks for advice on a study course. I have been studying by reading books and forums on bigger pockets I didn't want to pull the trigger on renting for about two years because i was afraid of making mistakes. Now id rather just learn by doing. Its quite the learning curve for me though I would totally take some land lording classes. I live in a really rural part of California and have not heard of anything like that offered where im located but im going to look into it now for sure. I have been attending a local meetup we started with some BP members. I will bring that up at the next meetup for sure thanks for the advice.  

     That's a great idea! I wish I can be there!

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    @Brandon Shoults

    I collect first, last, and security before they move in.

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    6y

    No offense, but this isn't because you are a "nice guy". It's because you're a sucker. You're falling for some very common sob stories. 

    This woman moved in and decided she doesn't want to live there. She's using the mold and respiratory issues as an excuse to escape her bad decision without penalty. Simply tell her she is required to give 30 days notice. If she wants to move out now, you keep the 30 days worth of rent and refund any remaining deposit or unused portion of rent. Simple.

    Educate yourself on mold. It's everywhere, even in the air outside in the freshest country breeze. Even if you did have mold, it usually doesn't create health problems although it may irritate an existing health problem. It's unlikely she would be suffering so quickly unless the mold spores were abundant and exposed. It's something most people only hear (false) horror stories about and so people will use a Landlord's lack of education to manipulate the situation.

    As for the legality, you are under no obligation. If mold were a concern, you can have the home tested to verify. If it were verifiable, she has to give you the opportunity to remedy it, which is very simple and not expensive unless you have a major issue. She doesn't get to claim mold and just walk away, just like she can't break the lease if the stove stops working. Tenants have a responsibility and that includes allowing the owner to verify the problem and then remedy it.

    As for the deposit, you need to educate yourself on the law, particularly if you are in California, which I believe is the most heavily regulated state in our great nation. Buy a copy of "Every Landlord's Legal Guide - California Edition" by NOLO. You'll thank me later.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
  • Investor · Arcata, CA · Member since 2015 · 76 posts · 34 votes
    6y

    Brandon,

    Did you have the tenant sign a mold addendum in your lease packet? It is a California state law requirement. 

    If not it's definitely not worth the legality risk and I would give her the prorated rent and move on. If she were to backlash in a legal dynamic and you didn't have the proper paperwork you will lose in court period and you will end up spending way more money to fight it. 

    Hope that helps!

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Kyle Boughton:

    Did you have the tenant sign a mold addendum in your lease packet? It is a California state law requirement. 

    If not it's definitely not worth the legality risk and I would give her the prorated rent and move on. If she were to backlash in a legal dynamic and you didn't have the proper paperwork you will lose in court period and you will end up spending way more money to fight it. 

    Hope that helps!

    According to NOLO and other legal sites, the Landlord is only required to provide an addendum when mold is known to be present. In his case, he has no knowledge of mold even after the tenant reported it.

    NOLO Mold Guide for California

    Buy their book. It's written by attorneys, points to your specific state/city laws, is updated every year, and is full of practical advice on how to manage your investment.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
  • Investor · Arcata, CA · Member since 2015 · 76 posts · 34 votes
    6y

    That's correct. Only if you know mold is present it is required. I would always include one anyways that states that your not aware of any known mold issues. My addendum also includes information to the tenant on mold. But when he states "As far as he can tell" that there isn't any mold it's not worth the risk over $300. Did he have a certified company come inspect the home for mold? California is a very tenant friendly state and with PERSONAL experience in our local court regarding issues similar to this. You will lose. I can tell you that my time is not worth $300 to fight this issue on a legal side and I'm sure yours isn't either. Mold is very common in our area and 90% of the time there are small traces somewhere in the home due to the damp climate in our area. 

    Nathan provided some great information and I do not disagree but I'm telling you this is not worth your time to try and fight. The effort you could potentially put into this could easily be used to fill your room by next week. Simple as that. Now if there was a large dollar figure attached to this I would take a different approach. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Mckinleyville, CA · Member since 2018 · 43 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    @Kyle Boughton

    Here is the mold addendum I believe you were referring to it is in the lease they signed 

    MOLD: The possibility of mold may exist and Tenant should contact Landlord if they notice excessive mold, mildew, etc. Preventative measures must be taken by the Tenant. Keep furniture away from the walls, open windows/use fan in the bathroom, wipe mildew with a warm/hot water and antibacterial soap solution, etc.


    Although I agree the dollar amount is so small it’s not really worth a fight. Mostly I’m trying to learn from my mistakes to avoid further issues in the future. Much appreciated on the feedback. I’m making a bunch of blunders as I’m just getting started with this career. 

  • Investor · Arcata, CA · Member since 2015 · 76 posts · 34 votes
    6y

    Ultimately if you had all your ducks in a row you could potentially fight it. But an attorney will find a loophole somewhere in the process if you were to get sued. This would end up costing you a lot more money in the long run. 

    It can be tough starting out and everything is a learning curve! But anyways hope it all works out.

    Good luck!

  • Rental Property Investor · Mckinleyville, CA · Member since 2018 · 43 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    @Nathan Gesner

    I’ll thank you upfront! 
    Thanks for the book recommendation I’m about to order that right now. These guys did sign a mold addendum also. I appreciate your feedback on. Your very right about me being a pushover. I tend to get suckered into cons from tenants because I’m inexperienced and want to be easy going. 

    Here is the text I got from the woman’s son who has been doing all the talking since day one. 

    “Non disclosure of presence of mold is not ethical and not legal, if you're trying to do business in this way in a small town, may be shooting yourself in the foot.“

    -Mike King

    He is also a real estate investor and claims property manager as his profession. I was intimidated by this because he does seem more experienced then me. 

    But he is obviously incorrect on the lack of disclosure it’s clearly in the rental agreement 

  • Investor · Arcata, CA · Member since 2015 · 76 posts · 34 votes
    6y

    The landlord is usually the one that gets hit the hardest and if you lose a few hundred dollars over something simple it's way easier to go that route. The moral of the story is even if you had all your paperwork in a row and you did everything to the legal standard if they get an attorney and sue you and you have to hire an attorney to defend yourself you will end up paying a large amount and legal costs even if you win. It can be a tough game! 

  • Rental Property Investor · Mckinleyville, CA · Member since 2018 · 43 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    Yea, I’m admitting defeat on this one. Apparently she has a lawer already and is threatening to sue. 

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Brandon Shoults:

    Yea, I’m admitting defeat on this one. Apparently she has a lawer already and is threatening to sue. 

    In the future, remember that your communication should only be with the persons party to the agreement. In other words, don't respond to a relative or friend acting on behalf of the renter. Communicating with outside parties opens you up to additional risk and enables them to gang up on you.

    Don't be too hard on yourself. I manage around 380 units and run a tight ship. But I don't manage my own because I tend to be too much of a pushover. It's a lot easier when managing for someone else.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Brandon Shoults:

    @Nathan Gesner

    I’ll thank you upfront! 
    Thanks for the book recommendation I’m about to order that right now. These guys did sign a mold addendum also. I appreciate your feedback on. Your very right about me being a pushover. I tend to get suckered into cons from tenants because I’m inexperienced and want to be easy going. 

    Here is the text I got from the woman’s son who has been doing all the talking since day one. 

    “Non disclosure of presence of mold is not ethical and not legal, if you're trying to do business in this way in a small town, may be shooting yourself in the foot.“

    -Mike King

    He is also a real estate investor and claims property manager as his profession. I was intimidated by this because he does seem more experienced then me. 

    But he is obviously incorrect on the lack of disclosure it’s clearly in the rental agreement 

     If to the best of your knowledge, it doesn't have mold, then it is an empty threat.  You are living in the house and know it better than anyone.  Get rid of her ASAP and find a better tenant.  And yes I know it is easier said than done sometimes.  It is early enough in the month, that you will lose a bit in rent, but save yourself a lot of stress.  If she's out quickly (and she will want to be from the sounds of it), you can get it rented quickly and there is time to do a good cleaning.

    And if her son is an investor, why doesn't he buy a place that she can live in or rent from him?

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Spanish Fort, Ala · Member since 2019 · 97 posts · 88 votes
    6y

    Sir. If you do have mold where she is staying make sure you have completely remove the mold and monitor it. Whereas you did not know of the mold this is the corrective measure. Have a mold inspector come out to verify the mold is removed. Next time make sure you cover yourself in the contract. Give her a notice she has to move within 30 days. That you are no longer renting the room. Secondly give her money back to her and never rent a room in your house out again. If you have to go to court she has prove the mold had an effect on her health. Whereas it was short term l would not think so. I suggest you have a renter contract written up in the future. You want to charge 1st months rent, a deposit,  and monthly administrative fee (paper work, Billing fee) of $10. You want a contract stating that if you hire a lawyer for breach of contract they are responsible for the fee. Require a 60 day notice before the lease runs out as a requirement to move out after the lease expires. If they do not give you a notice before the lease runs and moves  out indicate in the contract they are liable for the rent until it is rented..If it takes you two months to rent the place they owe you two months rents. Any early move out requires a 60 day notice and a 60 day payout. Plus the regular months rent. If you offer any incentive such as 1st months rent free indicate in the contract all incentives have to be paid back for breaking the contract early as well. If your going to have rentals hire a lawyer to enforce you rental contracts. Do not carry on conversations with your renter about the rentals, take the info and correct it. Document  everything. Let your lawyer handle the issues. It is all written off. Do a credit check's on all renters and requires a monthly income of three times the rent to qualify for the rental. Verify  employment and require 3 references and previous landlord . Have each section of the contract broke down so they can see it plainly and have them initial each section to prove they read it. Stay firm to your contract let your lawyer handle them. Make sure you include rent must be paid even if they die while living in your rental. This will give you a claim on any money's left behind.  Hopefully this will put you back in control. Just as a note l am not advising you but rather sharing with you what l would do. Please seek out a lawyer to advise you. Best wishes.

  • Rental Property Investor · Mckinleyville, CA · Member since 2018 · 43 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    I just spoke with my tenant about her moving out and me prorating the rent as she is requesting. she agreed that would work for her and no further legal action would be held against me. i got her to agree to signing something saying she would not sue me for the rent money or any medical issues that could have possibly arose from her staying in my house. she agreed to sign a settlement document. Its Saturday so I have not contacted a lawyer, yet I'm planning on doing that Monday. The tenant came back about 20 minutes later saying that her son has advised her not to sign anything in case they want to sue me for medical issues from her staying here. So it sounds like her son has the desire to sue me still even if i give her the money back for the rent. I'm definitely going to seek legal counsel in this matter as its starting to seem very serious and possibly very expensive. 

    @Kyle Boughton any suggestions for a good attorney for this matter? 

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Brandon Shoults:

    I just spoke with my tenant about her moving out and me prorating the rent as she is requesting. she agreed that would work for her and no further legal action would be held against me. i got her to agree to signing something saying she would not sue me for the rent money or any medical issues that could have possibly arose from her staying in my house. she agreed to sign a settlement document. Its Saturday so I have not contacted a lawyer, yet I'm planning on doing that Monday. The tenant came back about 20 minutes later saying that her son has advised her not to sign anything in case they want to sue me for medical issues from her staying here. So it sounds like her son has the desire to sue me still even if i give her the money back for the rent. I'm definitely going to seek legal counsel in this matter as its starting to seem very serious and possibly very expensive. 

    @Kyle Boughton any suggestions for a good attorney for this matter? 

    Brandon, I'm sorry but I'm 94.7% sure they're just playing you like a fiddle. If her health is so bad, why isn't she moving out immediately? She's just looking for ways to rake you over the coals. Her next step will be to ask for her money back AND she'll ask for moving costs or money for her medications.

    An attorney will defend you from a suit. What you really need is someone to defend you from a claim in the first place. I would hire a mold remediation company to inspect the property on Monday and determine whether mold is present. They can probably do a visual inspection immediately and indicate whether it is likely or unlikely, then they can conduct a physical test of mold in the air and on surfaces. If there's no signs of mold, she can sue all day long but it won't go anywhere.

    I would offer her two choices: 

    • move out and receive a prorated refund of rent
    • Stay and wait for the mold inspection and then remain liable for the remainder of her lease if mold is not found

    After that offer, I would stop talking to her.

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    6y

    P.S. It's a complete waste of time to contact an attorney this early. Tenants threaten to sue all the time and only about 1% of them will ever follow through. I mean, if this lady had money for an attorney, why is she renting a bedroom from you instead of her own place?

    Wait until you are contacted by her attorney. Then hire an attorney to handle it. Until then, just document everything, including all your conversations.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
  • Rental Property Investor · Boston, Massachusetts (MA) · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    By the way, those "I agree not to sue" documents are pretty useless. Lots of lawyers sign em (hold harmless waivers) without ever looking because they know they are garbage. Hard to sign away your rights, actually

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