An applicant asks if I discriminate against "ex ex felons"

General Landlording & Rental Properties
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An applicant asks if I discriminate against "ex ex felons"

Deisy P.
Rental Property Investor · South Padre Island, TX · Member since 2018 · 160 posts · 157 votes

An applicant contacted me on marketplace and asked me "So use discrimate against ex ex felons". They asked to come see the place and I said, as long as you meet the requirements we can move forward. They then proceeded to ask me that. The initial requirements are a favorable credit score, income 3 x the rent, and the last two check stubs. I replied that the application would be reviewed fairly and accordingly. It did catch me off guard. I had never been asked that before.

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Joe SplitrockPro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
6y

@Deisy P.

My answer would be, "No I don't discriminate against felons, but we do use criminal history in our screening process."

I would get details on the offense(s). Be prepared for a lengthy explanation that downplays the crime. "It was murder, but..." You are not the judge and jury, so accept the crime at face value. You may be able to save him from applying if it is just going to be a rejection. In most states it is perfectly legal to discriminate against felons, just like you can discriminate against someone with bad credit. Automatically when you use the word discriminate, it makes it sound wrong. Keep in mind there is a difference when you are discriminating against people because of choices they made, versus things out of their control (race, sex, etc.)

That being said, some people get overcharged, falsely accused and some simply make mistakes. I think it is wrong to define someone forever based on a single action. As a landlord it is not about punishing them for their past, but avoiding risk for yourself by placing a tenant who could cause trouble. If the tenant lands back in jail or loses their job, they can't pay rent. If they are a drug dealer or committing crimes on the property, it could risk the safety of other tenants or security of the property. 

Use these criteria to evaluate:

1. Look at the crime and severity. Non violent different than violent crimes or sex crimes.

2. Look at when it happened. Getting out of jail last week is different than 20 years ago.

3. Look at the pattern. Is it a one time thing or does the person keep committing crimes.

The fact that he has a decent job and credit score does show a good level of responsibility. I would put a little effort into vetting him. Some landlords have a hard line on "no felons" or "no violent felons or convicted sex offenders". Whatever policy you choose is your choice. Just be upfront with applicants. If you are going to deny them, do it fast so they can move on and find someone who will rent to them.

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  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    6y

    Just use common sense. DUI, Marijuana related charges I wouldnt care at all. Sex offender or murderer I would turn down.

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    11Reply
  • Kyle J.
    Rental Property Investor · Northern, CA · Member since 2012 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y

    @Deisy P. You should make your screening criteria clearly available to your applicants, whatever that criteria is. It’s only fair.

    After all, it doesn’t do them (or you) any good having them apply for a property they don’t qualify for and that you ultimately won’t approve them for.

    In this case, it sounds like you did make your criteria available, assuming that’s all that you require (favorable credit score, income 3 x the rent, and the last two check stubs). 

    If that’s the case, it doesn’t appear you even take criminal records into consideration in your criteria. Why not just answer with that?

    (Not that I necessarily agree with that, but that appears to be the case. So, to me, that would be the most appropriate/honest answer.)

    3Reply
  • Deisy P.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · South Padre Island, TX · Member since 2018 · 160 posts · 157 votes
    6y

    @Kyle J. Thanks for the info. I read other descriptions in the area and none of them mention anything other than what my criteria was as well. So I'm wondering if this person is asking them all the same thing. Again, it's my first time that I have been asked. 

    1Reply
  • Deisy P.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · South Padre Island, TX · Member since 2018 · 160 posts · 157 votes
    6y

    Thanks, @Russell Brazil

    1Reply
  • Matt Ziegler
    Rental Property Investor · Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2020 · 433 posts · 284 votes
    6y

    A very good idea to draw up what your rental tenant criteria is.

    Income, rental ,and employment history. Credit rating, criminal background( check with state laws on this).

    Pets vs. no pets, list of dangerous breeds not allowed.....

    We have list of qualifications that we give to prospective tenants BEFORE they fill out an application.

    This way it saves everyone involved time and money,and you protect yourself by treating all interested parties with the same guidelines.

    3Reply
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    6y

    @Deisy P.

    My answer would be, "No I don't discriminate against felons, but we do use criminal history in our screening process."

    I would get details on the offense(s). Be prepared for a lengthy explanation that downplays the crime. "It was murder, but..." You are not the judge and jury, so accept the crime at face value. You may be able to save him from applying if it is just going to be a rejection. In most states it is perfectly legal to discriminate against felons, just like you can discriminate against someone with bad credit. Automatically when you use the word discriminate, it makes it sound wrong. Keep in mind there is a difference when you are discriminating against people because of choices they made, versus things out of their control (race, sex, etc.)

    That being said, some people get overcharged, falsely accused and some simply make mistakes. I think it is wrong to define someone forever based on a single action. As a landlord it is not about punishing them for their past, but avoiding risk for yourself by placing a tenant who could cause trouble. If the tenant lands back in jail or loses their job, they can't pay rent. If they are a drug dealer or committing crimes on the property, it could risk the safety of other tenants or security of the property. 

    Use these criteria to evaluate:

    1. Look at the crime and severity. Non violent different than violent crimes or sex crimes.

    2. Look at when it happened. Getting out of jail last week is different than 20 years ago.

    3. Look at the pattern. Is it a one time thing or does the person keep committing crimes.

    The fact that he has a decent job and credit score does show a good level of responsibility. I would put a little effort into vetting him. Some landlords have a hard line on "no felons" or "no violent felons or convicted sex offenders". Whatever policy you choose is your choice. Just be upfront with applicants. If you are going to deny them, do it fast so they can move on and find someone who will rent to them.

    12Reply
  • Jesse M.
    NJ, NJ · Member since 2014 · 63 posts · 88 votes
    6y

    Seems like an aggressive tenant to ask that question like that....seems like trouble (not because of being an ex felon but because of being a tenant who starts out a relationship with that kind of loaded question).  I would avoid.

    4Reply
  • Bjorn AhlbladPro Member
    Investor · Shelton, WA · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y

    Anyone who is capable of reading and a little arithmetic should be able to do income=3x rent etc. but they can't! On top of which from time to time we get calls from people who are most likely with governmental agencies but  pose as tenant applicants. Their questions always are about screening process and selection criteria. You are getting these calls too, don't think you are not.

    4Reply
  • Jesse M.
    NJ, NJ · Member since 2014 · 63 posts · 88 votes
    6y

    Bjorn's explanation makes more sense to me.....the applicant's question just seems odd and abrupt so perhaps its a test

    0Reply
  • Deisy P.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · South Padre Island, TX · Member since 2018 · 160 posts · 157 votes
    6y

    Thanks, @Matt Ziegler

    0Reply
  • Deisy P.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · South Padre Island, TX · Member since 2018 · 160 posts · 157 votes
    6y

    Thank you @Joe Splitrock. All good stuff.

    0Reply
  • Deisy P.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · South Padre Island, TX · Member since 2018 · 160 posts · 157 votes
    6y

    @Bjorn Ahlblad That does make a lot of sense. 

    0Reply
  • James Hamling
    Real Estate Broker · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    6y

    @Deisy P. an Ex Ex-Felon..... do you suppose that's a statement that they want to know if it's ok if they pay rent in cash covered in dye packs, or notice they will have an operating chop shop? 

    3Reply
  • Deisy P.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · South Padre Island, TX · Member since 2018 · 160 posts · 157 votes
    6y

    @Account Closed Thank you. 

    0Reply
  • Deisy P.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · South Padre Island, TX · Member since 2018 · 160 posts · 157 votes
    6y

    @James Hamling Whatever their motive was to ask me that, I don't know. I'm sure this won't be the only time I get asked a question like this. 

    0Reply
  • Steve K.
    Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y

    What exactly is an "ex ex felon" anyway? 

    If I'm not mistaken, a felon is someone who has committed a felony. The correct term for a felon who has served their time is still felon (or ex-convict/ex-con). Technically the only way to become an ex-felon is to be acquitted of the felony (although the term ex-felon is often used interchangeably with ex-con, this is incorrect). So did the applicant become a felon, get acquitted, and then get convicted of another felony, or are the two exes meant to be understood to resolve to a positive?

    I would reply with: "Is the use of multiple forms of negation within the construct "ex ex felon" intended to cancel each other out to produce an affirmative, or were you intending to intensify the negation, such as by adding emphasis? Thank you for your clarification."

    3Reply
  • Account Closed
    Specialist · OverTheRainbow · Member since 2020 · 607 posts · 909 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Deisy P.:

    An applicant contacted me on marketplace and asked me "So use discrimate against ex ex felons". They asked to come see the place and I said, as long as you meet the requirements we can move forward. They then proceeded to ask me that. The initial requirements are a favorable credit score, income 3 x the rent, and the last two check stubs. I replied that the application would be reviewed fairly and accordingly. It did catch me off guard. I had never been asked that before.

    A couple of months ago I had a woman ask me about accepting felons on behalf of her new boyfriend. She said he was convicted of domestic abuse, but he isn't a violent guy. Let's see, New boyfriend, Domestic Abuse, but not Violent. Hmmm, I turned down their offer of being "drama" in my life.

    Also, Please take note: almost ALL convictions were "pleaded down" since it makes it easier for the D.A. to win his case. I would always assume whatever it was they did was a step worse than what they spent time for AND NO ONE goes to prison for the first offense, unless it's homicide. He obviously has a history and you likely don't want to become part of that history.

    3Reply
  • Jym Lightman
    Member since 2019 · 1 post · 0 votes
    6y

    @John Farady 100%

    There's a sea of people living their own storylines.

    There just isn't valid statistical reasoning behind putting yourself in front of the possibility of being needlessly involved with all of them.

    Are you out in Africa building wells? Are you walking in Compton at night?

    Of course not.

    You're investing in real estate because you've chosen wisdom.

    My point is simply that just because its in front of us doesn't mean we owe that decision any more weight than a passing thought of "I should build a well out there to help an impoverished community one day" or "I shouldn't ever find myself in Compton (LA) at night." If its in front of us it doesn't need to be and we could have been anyone anywhere. We aren't. Were us in that one moment. We need to minimize risk in all of its forms. This thread has been extremely valuable for when I begin investing.

    0Reply
  • Deisy P.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · South Padre Island, TX · Member since 2018 · 160 posts · 157 votes
    6y

    @Steve K. they didn't even spell "discriminate" right, so that right there.....

    0Reply
  • Deisy P.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · South Padre Island, TX · Member since 2018 · 160 posts · 157 votes
    6y

    @Account Closed oh boy. the process of screening tenants. "oh joy."

    0Reply
  • Deisy P.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · South Padre Island, TX · Member since 2018 · 160 posts · 157 votes
    6y

    Thanks everyone for your input thus far. All great stuff.

    0Reply
  • Justin Thorpe
    Member since 2020 · 437 posts · 675 votes
    6y

    @Deisy P.

    Your screening criteria excludes a background check. I always put it as a criteria even on my higher end properties.

    0Reply
  • Deisy P.
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · South Padre Island, TX · Member since 2018 · 160 posts · 157 votes
    6y

    I do have that too. a credit and background check is required for everyone over 18 years old. @Justin Thorpe

    0Reply
  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    6y

    I should have clarified one other thing in my original post. The way this person asked the question was concerning. I have rented to felons before, but they didn't ask the question in an accusatory tone. It was more like "I have a felony on my record for forgery. It happened when I was younger and it was a dumb mistake. I learned my lesson. I have a good job and good references. I would appreciate it if you would consider renting to me. I will answer any questions you have."

    I can see where a felon would get frustrated by being denied, but leading the conversation with "do you discriminate" is an aggressive tone. It implies that you not wanting to rent to them is a problem with you, not them. That alone would probably cause me to just say, no I do not rent to felons.

    2Reply
  • Steve Morris
    Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    "So use discrimate against ex ex felons".

    If he's an ex- ex-felon, doesn't that mean he's a current felon?   It''ll show on the credit/criminal report.

    The logic on that is got my mind going.

    0Reply
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