Can I sue state government for damages by moratorium on eviction

Can I sue state government for damages by moratorium on eviction

New York, NY · Member since 2018 · 100 posts · 20 votes

(I don't want to limit this to Legal forum, so please let me post it in thus general thread). 

This is my first property, financed 2 years ago, so obviously I don't have much reserve. The property is in North Carolina.

A tenant stopped paying in February 2020, I got eviction order and waited legal time frame for writ of possession. 3 days before that, maratorium on evictions happened.. So the tenant stayed there for 3 more months, totalling 6 month of unpaid rent. Finally got evicted by Sheriff in July after their moratorium was lifted. Tenant basically destroyed the unit, requiring repairs. The money is likely not recoverable from the tenant.

I applied for forbearance which will end in September but if I put my loan into deferment (putting debt at the end if terms) - then I won't be able to refinance it, taking advantage of much lower rates that I got my loan at. Also, it's my understanding that I won't be able to apply for a new loan if this loan is in deferment.

So, figuratively speaking, government stepped in and put me into debt by preventing me from exercising my rights by evicting a non-paying tenant. It's also preventing me from refinancing. Is that any different from theft?

An advice from experienced investors on how I could handle this? 

Are there class action lawsuits on this? Any idea how I can hold government accountable for this unconstitutional act?

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Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
6y

@Stan C.

You’d be better off sticking a wad of cash in the blender and spreading it on toast. Don’t forget to vote.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Marin County California · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    The states are sovereigns. They can only be sued with their consent.  Pressing for legislation allowing such lawsuits is probably your best recourse.  I would not hold my breath waiting for the green light.  

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    6y

    Its a federal eviction moratorium.  You would have to get the case all the way to the Supreme Court, with a decidedly different 5-4 swing that we currently have.  How many millions of dollars do you have to fund the case all the way to the highest court over the next decade?

    Be thankful there is a small gap of time here with the moratorium gone before the next one goes into affect here in the next couple weeks.

  • Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Stan C.

    You’d be better off sticking a wad of cash in the blender and spreading it on toast. Don’t forget to vote.

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    Should you be able to have your case heard by a jury of your peers-absolutely.  The issue is states somehow have the ability to be able to say in different events if they can or cannot be sued, guess where they usually side.  I know we all wish we could just state we can't be sued and it never make it to court but it is a luxury that only the Gov. gets to enjoy.  I do see this as a case that could be lobbied but it needs to be by a partnership of large corporations or reits that have the funding to fight it and a lot more money to loose through tens of thousands of units.  Just be thankful you didn't have commercial property in a place where peaceful people were allowed to blow off some steam and to be heard where somehow your building got burned without whatever special insurance covers riots at a place where the police won't go.  I doubt those cases will make it to court either but may stand a better chance due to deeper pockets.  

  • New York, NY · Member since 2018 · 100 posts · 20 votes
    6y

    Hm, look like nothing can be done. Sounds like we are under totalitarian government, just like in communist China or something...


    Is there ANYTHING landlords can do legally to prevent this from happening again? Any way to have Rental Agreements drafted such a way that doesn't allow governments to steal my money? My PM obviously uses a standard agreement. 

  • Contractor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 102 posts · 181 votes
    6y

    @Kris H.

    Its not funny but it is.

  • San Antonio, TX · Member since 2019 · 930 posts · 836 votes
    6y

    @Stan C.

    You can try, and I expect others have tried, but success seems unlikely. From a practical standpoint, if this were to succeed, states, most of which are already in a rather precarious financial situation, wouldn’t be able to pay anyways.

  • Investor · New York City, NY · Member since 2014 · 289 posts · 374 votes
    6y

    I think it is really unhelpful to push partisan politics on either side here. We need to have the ability to have open and constructive dialog without resorting to name calling and hyperbole. Neither party does everything well in government. The both have their problems. I am as frustrated with eviction moratoriums as anyone else here. But rather than alienate fellow investors who were are here to share and learn from, we should be calling our representatives and explaining what they clearly have not thought of. I know I have done this and if more people did, we could have a real impact in having regulators understand the investors point of view. I know I'd rather not see BP turn into dividing partisan nonsense the way the rest of the internet has.

    (this post is not aimed at anyone specifically, I just think it needs to be said for everyone to consider what exactly they post here)

  • New York, NY · Member since 2018 · 100 posts · 20 votes
    6y

    Didn't state governors issue the moratorium on evictions? If so - they are responsible. 

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Stan C.:

    Didn't state governors issue the moratorium on evictions? If so - they are responsible. 

     Federal Government did. The states have a concurrent one that followed. The only reason you were able to remove your tenant was because the Federal moratorium has lapsed.....it will be extended once they work out the next stimulus bill.

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
    Originally posted by @Stan C.:

    Didn't state governors issue the moratorium on evictions? If so - they are responsible. 

     Federal Government did. The states have a concurrent one that followed. The only reason you were able to remove your tenant was because the Federal moratorium has lapsed.....it will be extended once they work out the next stimulus bill.

     This is partially true. There was a Federal moratorium, but it was limited to Federally backed loans or programs. If someone owned a property free-and-clear, there was no Federal moratorium on eviction. Some states and some local municipalities had concurrent or additional eviction restrictions. Some states still have those restrictions in place.

    As far as a legal case, there is a good argument that eviction moratoriums violate a landlords right to due process and the taking clause. It could also be argued the government is modifying a contract. As Russell pointed out, a legal case would likely work its way to the supreme court. That would take considerable money and time to litigate. You would probably need a large class group or an attorney willing to do it for reasons beyond money.

    There are cases in process, so I wouldn't call it a lost cause. I just don't think it is worth it financially for a smaller landlord to pursue this. Even if you are part of a class group, the payout is a fraction of the loss.

  • New York, NY · Member since 2018 · 100 posts · 20 votes
    6y

    I know in Connecticut landlords are suing the governor for that. Can't find whether they do so in North Carolina. We need that in all 50 states! Class action lawsuits. 

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Stan C.:

    I know in Connecticut landlords are suing the governor for that. Can't find whether they do so in North Carolina. We need that in all 50 states! Class action lawsuits. 

     Not all 50 states... My state never had any state or local eviction bans in place. Our Governor stated it was not under consideration and legality was one of the main reasons. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis · Member since 2020 · 4 posts · 7 votes
    6y

    We need stimulus for landlords. Not PPP-like loans where you may have to pay them back. 

    There are three major arms to keep the economy stable. Markets, Jobs, and Housing. The gov't has done all its can to take care of the first two. Its time they take care of the third. I know of at least two landlords sitting on over 80% nonpayment rates with two multi-tenant high rises. They too are getting forbearance, but what happens after? Like you, they just backloaded their debt. 

    The best course of action would be for the gov't provide loan forgiveness for the covid period. Considering they are pumping a lot of money into the repo markets, (with the banks still making it difficult to get loans), that money should be going to more places than just the stock market. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Springfield, MO · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Stan C.,

    First and foremost, let me say I hear you and feel the frustration you have.  I am blessed to live in a state (Missouri) where we didn't have any state-wide moratoriums.  Our courthouses shut down for a while (2 months or so) in my county, but evictions are now rolling on and the backlog is getting caught up.  I am also blessed to not have any tenants default on me.  Everyone is paid up, on time.  

    I don't think it would be worth your time and money to sue on this one.  The "loophole" many states used is to say, "We are not telling tenants they don't have to pay rent; they still owe the rent; land lords simply cannot evict."  Sounds, fair, right?

    Yeah, whatever.  Any land lord who has been in this game a few years know that once tenants get 1 or more months behind, that money is gone and never to be seen again 9 times out of 10.  That is one reason why I don't hesistate to file eviction when someone is past 7 days late.  There is no mandatory grace period in my state, but as a practical measure I file on day 8 simply to limit my losses in case we do get to a set out.  Even if I get them served papers and get a money judgement, it takes years to get the money collected and my collection agency charges 50% fees.

    So there is no good reason to wait.  We need the non-payers out NOW.

    But you couldn't.  You got bit in the butt 3 days before "curb" day.  Again, my sympathies.  But let's no compound the loss by filing a lawsuit.

    My advice to you is learn from this experience for the next time around.  Tighten up your screening standards.  Only take tenants who have a proven track record of paying.  Don't take people who hop from place to place and job to job.  You want someone with at least 1 year on the current job.  The job shouldn't be a McJob they can leave tomorrow and go find another one.  Think professionals who have a vested interest in the community and keeping their noses clean, or perhaps a foreman at a local plant who has had to put in 3-5 years working his way up from the bottom.

    No self-employed.  Sorry, they're fine people, but not stable enough as a general rule.  Unless they've been around 10+ years, too risky for me.

    Also, no judgment proof tenants.  Social security, pensions, and retirement plans are exempt from garnishment.  Those are automatic no-go for me.  Hopefully, NY doesn't have income discrimination laws and you can require garnisheeable income.

    Check the credit report.  Scores aren't very useful, but you want to know are they paying their bills?  Unpaid cell phones, utilities, credit cards, etc. are signs of a life of chaos.  Even student loans: they took those loan out.  No one forced them too.  They should be making an effort on paying them.  If I see more than one account in Collections, it's a hard "no-go" for me.

    Call current AND past land lords.  Current land lords sometimes lie to get rid of bad residents, but if they say bad things then odds are they are telling the truth.  Past land lords will ask you where the "&$%#" person is so they can collect on damages and unpaid rent.  I'm not saying I've given out info on applicants who skipped out on past LLs, but I am saying past LLs have no reason to lie to you.  Only trust 3rd party LLs.  If the applicant lived with their MeeMaw, she is going to say nice things, right?

    Anyway, all this boils down to what YOU can control.  You can control who gets into your units.  There are good, responsible people out there.  When you find a good tenant they will do everything in their power to pay you, or they will leave as agreed without court forcing them out.  They value their reputation.  That's about the best we can do, given the current political environment.

    Control what you can.  Best wishes!

  • Daniel SmythPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2019 · 471 posts · 342 votes
    6y

    @Stan C.

    Yes.

    The better question, us how to win your case.

    Currently the Government is giving tax incentives to some that are affected, but that tax rebate put no bacon on the table!

    It doesn't pay my other bills too, of assist my business in the business plan.

    I see a class action suit. Look for it, and be sure you are listed as a plaintiff.

    I said the same when this began.

    Contracts were made and agreed upon on paper. If this legal paper has no bearing, this could return us to the ways of the past, when rent was due daily or weekly, with everything in your house subject to the value the owner deems worthy. When he next takes your refrigerator and the outside doors, no court is needed to make you move.

    Thats how it was before contracts were used in Real Estate.

    One remedy of the government would be to pay down your mortgage, the amount you are minus rent.

    So, the suits must be filed, and proper remedies returned to the injured owners/investors.

    Let it be written. Let it be done!

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    "Are there class action lawsuits on this? Any idea how I can hold government accountable for this unconstitutional act?"

    In OR, there are a couple of landlord associations trying, however, its an uphill battle:

    1) Almost all judges will do whatever they can to help tenants - Just like with FEDs

    2) Suing state govt is like attacking China.  Take a million POWs then attack next day and another million POWs,  They can wear you out since they don't care about cost or time

    3) Most judges will use some sort of "emergency" as justification.  This started in 2010 when banks were foreclosing on borrowers and judges slowed them down.

  • New York, NY · Member since 2018 · 100 posts · 20 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Erik W.:

    @Stan C.,

    First and foremost, let me say I hear you and feel the frustration you have.  I am blessed to live in a state (Missouri) where we didn't have any state-wide moratoriums.  Our courthouses shut down for a while (2 months or so) in my county, but evictions are now rolling on and the backlog is getting caught up.  I am also blessed to not have any tenants default on me.  Everyone is paid up, on time.  

    I don't think it would be worth your time and money to sue on this one.  The "loophole" many states used is to say, "We are not telling tenants they don't have to pay rent; they still owe the rent; land lords simply cannot evict."  Sounds, fair, right?

    Yeah, whatever.  Any land lord who has been in this game a few years know that once tenants get 1 or more months behind, that money is gone and never to be seen again 9 times out of 10.  That is one reason why I don't hesistate to file eviction when someone is past 7 days late.  There is no mandatory grace period in my state, but as a practical measure I file on day 8 simply to limit my losses in case we do get to a set out.  Even if I get them served papers and get a money judgement, it takes years to get the money collected and my collection agency charges 50% fees.

    So there is no good reason to wait.  We need the non-payers out NOW.

    But you couldn't.  You got bit in the butt 3 days before "curb" day.  Again, my sympathies.  But let's no compound the loss by filing a lawsuit.

    My advice to you is learn from this experience for the next time around.  Tighten up your screening standards.  Only take tenants who have a proven track record of paying.  Don't take people who hop from place to place and job to job.  You want someone with at least 1 year on the current job.  The job shouldn't be a McJob they can leave tomorrow and go find another one.  Think professionals who have a vested interest in the community and keeping their noses clean, or perhaps a foreman at a local plant who has had to put in 3-5 years working his way up from the bottom.

    No self-employed.  Sorry, they're fine people, but not stable enough as a general rule.  Unless they've been around 10+ years, too risky for me.

    Also, no judgment proof tenants.  Social security, pensions, and retirement plans are exempt from garnishment.  Those are automatic no-go for me.  Hopefully, NY doesn't have income discrimination laws and you can require garnisheeable income.

    Check the credit report.  Scores aren't very useful, but you want to know are they paying their bills?  Unpaid cell phones, utilities, credit cards, etc. are signs of a life of chaos.  Even student loans: they took those loan out.  No one forced them too.  They should be making an effort on paying them.  If I see more than one account in Collections, it's a hard "no-go" for me.

    Call current AND past land lords.  Current land lords sometimes lie to get rid of bad residents, but if they say bad things then odds are they are telling the truth.  Past land lords will ask you where the "&$%#" person is so they can collect on damages and unpaid rent.  I'm not saying I've given out info on applicants who skipped out on past LLs, but I am saying past LLs have no reason to lie to you.  Only trust 3rd party LLs.  If the applicant lived with their MeeMaw, she is going to say nice things, right?

    Anyway, all this boils down to what YOU can control.  You can control who gets into your units.  There are good, responsible people out there.  When you find a good tenant they will do everything in their power to pay you, or they will leave as agreed without court forcing them out.  They value their reputation.  That's about the best we can do, given the current political environment.

    Control what you can.  Best wishes!

    Thanks for encouragements. 

     Unfortunately, the property management screens the tenants, I have no saying in that. Even though this tenant came with the property (self-screened by the seller), sometimes properly vetted tenants default, too. .. 

    Even month-to-month rent would not solve another maratorium issue, if it happens...

    As far as lawsuits, obviously I can't do it myself. That's why I'm asking if others would join, or have already started, in NC. Haven't found yet. These  cases absolutely have legal grounds. 

    If government thrashed our rights, then we hold it responsible, or we're not obligated to play by it's rules. 

  • New York, NY · Member since 2018 · 100 posts · 20 votes
    6y

    In NY landlords were trying to put a "moratorium in property taxes" in response and the government quickly ended their eviction moratorium (even though damages of the eviction freeze are high). This is what happens when people stand together. 

    When I mentioned that on the North Carolina thread, I was laughed at. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Corvallis, OR · Member since 2018 · 840 posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Stan C. Taking on the government sounds like spending $1 million

    Seriously, how can we prevail against them? I hear you, I never thought I would see the day government would step in and tell my tenants you dont have to pay rent and then give them a long time to actually catch up. I have built the business the right way, but big brother is not watching out for me. I feel like a neglected adopted step son.

  • Chandler, AZ · Member since 2017 · 174 posts · 269 votes
    6y
    I'm pretty sure there will be lawsuits, that will eventually make it to the highest courts.  But this is going to take years to wind it's way through the courts.  This is how it should be.  The system is designed to be slow so we don't make mistakes due to the passions of the moment.  So, unfortunately, there is no immediate relief. 

    One thing that might be useful is to present a case to local lawmakers.  I completely understand that governments don't want a huge uptick in homelessness to deal with right now.  But I think there are some considerations that most lawmakers haven't considered yet.  Non-paying tenants WILL eventually be evicted.  (Unless we go full property seizure by the government.)  And then those tenants will not be able to move into new rentals because of the evictions.  And no, the laws being proposed to make it illegal to deny renting due to prior evictions aren't going to work.  So, this moratorium, meant to help renters, is likely ultimately hurting them. 

    A better argument is that landlords, if they aren't receiving rents, will eventually default on their mortgages.  This will drive property values down.  Probably significantly down if this happens to a lot of landlords.  This in turn will drive property taxes down.  And I think this little unintended consequence might get a few lawmakers attention.  :D

    But seriously, lawmakers are just people too.  And they are working in a difficult situation with little information.  Most Senators, Congressmen, state Legislators, etc (I think) are willing to at least hear a well reasoned, concise, arguments.

    Not saying they'll stop the moratorium, but they might change it somehow.  Maybe offer aid to landlords.  Maybe cap how many months a renter can go without paying.  Who knows?
  • Rental Property Investor · Durham, NC · Member since 2016 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    6y

    @Stan C. The short answer is no. The detailed answer is what @Russell Brazil said

  • Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    @Stan C. Real Estate is not really private and has never been. That piece of land you think you "own" is part of a city county state and country. You get to control it based on the consent of those entities. If you dont like that go choose another investment. Tilting at windmills will not help you.

  • Denver, CO · Member since 2018 · 29 posts · 21 votes
    6y

    So if everybody is getting stimulus checks and unemployment benefits which is leading to a big percentage of people actually making more sitting at home than working, so why exactly they cant pay rents. What was the intention of CARE acts? I understand that not everybody received it on time, many received it like month or 2 late, but should those tenants not pay their rent when they do get that money. Everybody should be able to afford their rent with all the stimulus checks unless you are undocumented and not eligible for stimulus? Average rents across USA is 1200/month, so 600/week should cover that right?  

  • Huntsville, AL · Member since 2018 · 578 posts · 864 votes
    6y

    There is a potential option that @Joe Splitrock noted in his post that I think a lot of folks may have missed.

    If you avoid federally backed loans, then your battle is typically limited to the state/city/county level. Because our LLC has commercial, non-federally backed loans, my property manager advised one of our tenants that while we were happy to work with them during these trying times, we also still had the ability to evict them if they chose to ignore us and simply assume they could live rent free. Rent check then arrived within the week after the tenant was notified of this. Sure, our interest rate will be slightly higher, but I'd rather have more control of the property given the times we live in.

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