New to Real Estate · Dalton, NH · Member since 2020 · 116 posts · 64 votes
I am thinking of renovating a few of our projects with electric based radiant floor heating. We have looked into getting a flooring that will stand up to the heat, and our state is pretty good on electric power due to hydro power all over our area. I wanted to know if any of you have worked with electric radiant heat in your rentals. How did it go over with your tenants? what problems did you encounter? would you do it again? Thanks for all the input.
Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
5y
Electric heat can work for small spaces and small units, especially if you don't have other options. Or as a sublimental heat source in a finished basement.
Forced air is the way to go for rental properties, at least here in Milwaukee.
We do have a fair amount of old homes with radiant boiler heat and the issue is cooling in the summer. Now you need an entire system to cool, while the AC normally just piggybacks on the forced air heating.
You are probably best of with whatever is considered standard in your area: thats what the market expects and you have the contractors and suppliers readily available to deal with issues. Keep it standard!
Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2020 · 108 posts · 89 votes
5y
If you're thinking of doing an electric system, as I am (wire mats underneath your hardwood), here are a couple things I've discovered so far:
Electric heating means that you'll need to be grid tied.
You will need to seal the matting to the floor with a mortar. I'm not sure how well those materials would stand up to the vibrational load of driving the house anywhere.
Plan for an extra .25-.50" of floor thickness.
Radiant floor take hours to heat up. You'll need a thermostat that can take that into account and begin heating at appropriately early times. I'm planning on the Nest.
Investor · Milwaukee - Mequon, WI · Member since 2010 · 5k+ posts · 7k+ votes
5y
Electric heat can work for small spaces and small units, especially if you don't have other options. Or as a sublimental heat source in a finished basement.
Forced air is the way to go for rental properties, at least here in Milwaukee.
We do have a fair amount of old homes with radiant boiler heat and the issue is cooling in the summer. Now you need an entire system to cool, while the AC normally just piggybacks on the forced air heating.
You are probably best of with whatever is considered standard in your area: thats what the market expects and you have the contractors and suppliers readily available to deal with issues. Keep it standard!
I have rentals in Oregon and electric radiant heat is common. Electricity is also relatively cheap due to hydro power but it doesn't get nearly as cold as New Hampshire. When I was in college in Vermont, however, it wasn't uncommon for rentals heated with electricity to rent for less per month due to the high cost of heating them.
Rental Property Investor · NH · Member since 2016 · 74 posts · 35 votes
5y
Hi Shane, we have a decent sized portfolio across southern NH (80units) and electric heat is the one thing we avoid like the plaque and/or replace as soon as we purchase.
Rental Property Investor · Gilford, NH · Member since 2019 · 50 posts · 20 votes
5y
@Shane Cloutier, I don't know if you get special lower rates for electricity up in that part of NH ... but NH is not known for low electric rates. In fact, the national average is 10.54 cents/kWh, and NH's average is 17.15 cents/kWh - the 6th highest in the country (source: https://www.eia.gov/electricit/state/)
I wouldn't attempt to heat a whole house using just radiant floor heat, unless you have really good insulation. As others have pointed out, Radiant Floor heat is really slow to heat a space. If the house is old or drafty, radiant floor would struggle to keep it warm. If the house is really tight, and has excellent insulation and modern windows, then you could probably comfortably heat the home with radiant floors.
That being said, if you do install radiant electric heat, make sure to install a spare thermostat lead. Those are the most common thing to go, and when they do, it is an expensive fix to put in a new one!
Lastly, I have a couple of SFR's with electric heat - I have no problem renting them out. Eversource offers a reduced rate for electric heat (it's called Heat Smart). It's not well publicized. You have to put all of your electric heat on a separate meter and panel (this can be expensive), but it can save lots of money for your renters. You also have to have a "backup" heat source (think wood/pellet/gas stove), because in exchange for the lower rate Eversource reserves the right to shutoff the Electric Heat for up to 4 hours a day (no more than 2 days in a row). In practice I have never had this happen during the winter, but I've seen it happen on average once a year during the hottest days of summer (when the heats not needed, so no biggie). I do not know if NH Electric Co-op (or other providers) offer similar programs.
New to Real Estate · Dalton, NH · Member since 2020 · 116 posts · 64 votes
5y
Would it better then to go with a water based radiant heat system? I have seen some systems that have decreased the thickness of the install. The project I had aimed it for was an 16 unit apartment building that we are going to do a full rehab on. I hoped to make it easier for us to put the heating costs on the individual units.
Rockaway, NJ · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
5y
My concern with the heaters under the floor, is that when there is an issue you must remove the floor to maintenance it. Why not use electric baseboard instead?
Hi Shane, we have a decent sized portfolio across southern NH (80units) and electric heat is the one thing we avoid like the plaque and/or replace as soon as we purchase.
Hey Michael could you expand on why this is? I have a few units with electric heat and haven't had any problems with them. I once even added electric heat to a historic building because it was the easiest way to do the least amount of damage to the building, and it was a lot cheaper than adding FHW to boot.
I know electric is expensive in NH, but if you're passing it on to the tenants, it's not hurting the bottom line. I've noticed no push back or more difficulty renting electric heat units.
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
5y
Boiler heat is generally the cheapest to operate. I get concerned about in floor radiant heat, because if you have a problem, you need to rip the floor open. Baseboard units can easily be fixed or replaced. Also keep in mind that even if your electricity is cheap, my guess is gas boiler heat would still be more efficient. Even if the tenant is paying the bill, crazy high electric bills can drive tenants out of a property. As a final note, if you are switching to electric heat, make sure your electric service amperage and panel board can handle it.
New to Real Estate · Dalton, NH · Member since 2020 · 116 posts · 64 votes
5y
I like the mini split idea. This is a three story apartment building so I'm guessing that is going to add its own problems adding the outside units on the two top floors. I am trying my best to make sure to separate the utilities to each of the 16 units. Not sure how we would do that with a traditional boiler system. @James S. I wish the previous owners had taken your mindset, the mess of heating pipes and electrical conduits in this building just ran up through the floors out in the hallways. I want to do a full rehab and strip the place down and fix the hodgepodge of lazy updating.
Chicago, IL · Member since 2020 · 184 posts · 182 votes
5y
Each mini split system will have max elevations from outdoor unit to indoor unit and vice versa.
There will also be a max lineset length per unit and total per system. You will have to be patient and read all of the installation requirements to see if a mini split system will work for your situation.
Some put them on the roof, others on the ground, etc.
Just be aware that this will be a maintenance item forever now. Cleaning indoor filters at least twice a year and outdoor coils also. May even need indoor coil and fan cleanings every few years.
This is the downside. The upside is I get to inspect my property on a consistent basis without the tenants knowing I am actually inspecting even though I am there to clean the filters.
Rental Property Investor · Manchester, NH · Member since 2019 · 186 posts · 156 votes
5y
@Shane Cloutier I am doing exactly that on an 8 unit property right now. I am rewiring the entire building and taking it from a single meter to a ten meter socket. I am adding panels to each unit and electric heat for each. The cost of adding 8 boilers isn’t worth it for me. 7 units are studios or one bedrooms and the entire building will be insulated. To me it makes sense to add individual control to each unit and allows me to add heat into the bathrooms and small spaces that the boiler didn’t go to.
I know this thread is old, but being an electric radiant heat manufacturer, I wanted to clear up a few things in case anyone else stumbles on this.
1. Electric baseboard heat, and in floor radiant heat are VERY different. Baseboard heaters are very ineffective because they are a very local heat source that may have fan (may not) but need to move that heat around the room and they don't have a good way to do it. Just like a forced air system, you are dumping a lot of heat into a room in one spot and then having to stir the whole room up to distribute the heat.
Electric in floor heating spreads the heat source out across the room, and then directly heats the occupants and surfaces. If you buy a 1500W wall heater, that is an equivalent amount of heat as to what you would have under 100 square feet of floor. Then you read the floor temp (not the air temp) and so the system will only actually run a fraction of the time. Much less than the wall heater.
There are a number of responses above that seem to comingle "electric" with radiant heat.
2. Hydronic Vs Electric to heat a space - There are two common methods to heat with in floor heating. Water pipes (hydronic), electric wires (electric). Hydronic can be really good for large areas as the cost of PEX tubing is low and you can manage the power requirements more easily. However it does take a lot longer to move the temperature of the space and there is a higher initial system cost than electric. There is also the ongoing maintenance of the boiler. Typically hydronic systems output about 25-35 BTU and the heating tubes need to run through some form of thermal mass. Typically self-leveler or inside of a slab. This is why it takes so long to get to temperature as you are moving the temp of the entire mass. Electric systems (at 15W psf) output about 51 BTU per square foot and can sit just underneath the flooring surface so you are able to put more heat into the room faster and therefore move the temperature of the room much faster.
3 - While it is true that hydronic systems and most electric systems could require the whole floor to be removed in the event of an issue, that is not true of certain custom electric heat mats. If damage to the system does occur there are systems (at least one that I personally am familiar with) out there have an easy way to pin point the issue limiting the removal to a tile or two.
4 - And lastly there was a comment about big stackups and vibrations due to movement. Luxury motorcoaches have been using in floor heating for decades. They shake like a 5.2 earthquake and the systems hold up fine. Since they need to be as light as possible the best systems are about 1/8" thick and can be encapsulated in thinset with a 3/8 notch trowel to reduce any extra work, height, weight and cost.