How to combat the growing hatred for Landlords?
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
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How to combat the growing hatred for Landlords?
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Real Estate Broker · Northeast PA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
5yFood, clothing, and shelter are human NEEDS. They are not human rights.
We still live in a capitalist system (at least for the moment) and in that system people that provide a service are rewarded. The greater the service, the greater the reward.
If they provide poor service, the market will reward them by going somewhere else for the service. Back before big government programs, poor folks in need could get help from family, friends, or the church (or wherever they worship). When the government set up a social 'safety net', people started taking it for granted, and it became a way of life for many. Now many feel that it is their right to have shelter given to them for free.
I guess it's just too difficult for some folks to understand. If someone works hard to provide a service to the public when they make a profit some see that as obscene, immoral, and just wrong.
Landlords have been looked down upon with a stigma since the first Neanderthal rented out a cave that he dug out with his own hands and club.
We can only help the poor when we earn a profit and have something left over to give to a worthy charity of our choice. That does not necessarily include tenants that cannot or will not pay their rent.
That being said, treat everyone equally and with respect. Do not judge them, even if they judge you. Hold your head up and keep moving forward.
129 Replies
- Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2021 · 17 posts · 15 votes5y
Correct - or by delaying repairs and capital expenditures
- 5yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
Originally posted by @Sean Walsh:
@Nathan G. This is a very relevant issue - especially here in Denver. Right now a city ordinance is being considered by City Council to put in place a landlord licensing regime that includes a fee and an inspection. In parallel, an activist group will soon be circulating petitions to pass a $75 per year per door tax on landlords.
How will landlords pay for that $75 licensing fee and the ancillary expenses that will surely come along with it? By passing the cost on to the tenants.
this type of fee is common in many markets. just the cost of doing business..
- Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes5y
@Patrick M. not sure if your post is directed at me? But I am a "small" LL. I am merely pointing out what tenants think - i do not necessarily agree with them on all their positions.
I would like to think I am part of the solution and not part of the problem and I agree there are folks on BP that are good LLs. But on any given day you can see cringe worthy posts on this Forum that play right into the hands of those that hate LLs.
I guess its surprising to me that anyone would be surprised that people hate LLs. <shrug> maybe because I have spent a good portion of my life renting I know how bad some LLs can be (and yes of course, how good they can be too)
- Rental Property Investor · Red Bank, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes5y
@Mary M. it appears that you conflate being a bad landlord with having an opinion or business model different from you.
Again these posts that make you cringe, ie me charging an unlock fee, has nothing to do with being a bad landlord. But you and others project your beliefs/business models on it and find that it does.You are not the arbiter of who is and who is not a bad landlord. If you want to opine that it is a bad business model then that is fine, but it has zero to do with providing a safe, secure home and abiding by the terms of a lease and the laws governing it.
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with doing this for, and being motivated by, profit. I do this for money, as I said before- this actually makes me a far better landlord. Simply saying that makes liberals and some tenants cringe.
Look back at the original site which was shared, negating the clearly fake texts, can you say that anyone on here is promoting leaving a hole in the ceiling? Throwing Irish spring soap on a dead animal carcass?
There are certainly times when people come on here and ask, "do I have to fix this?" And the overwhelming reply by the regulars is the right answer.
- 5yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Patrick M.:
@Mary M. it appears that you conflate being a bad landlord with having an opinion or business model different from you.
Again these posts that make you cringe, ie me charging an unlock fee, has nothing to do with being a bad landlord. But you and others project your beliefs/business models on it and find that it does.You are not the arbiter of who is and who is not a bad landlord. If you want to opine that it is a bad business model then that is fine, but it has zero to do with providing a safe, secure home and abiding by the terms of a lease and the laws governing it.
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with doing this for, and being motivated by, profit. I do this for money, as I said before- this actually makes me a far better landlord. Simply saying that makes liberals and some tenants cringe.
Look back at the original site which was shared, negating the clearly fake texts, can you say that anyone on here is promoting leaving a hole in the ceiling? Throwing Irish spring soap on a dead animal carcass?
There are certainly times when people come on here and ask, "do I have to fix this?" And the overwhelming reply by the regulars is the right answer.
I look at it this way.. I was a renter for about 9 years I lived in the Napa Valley and commuted to Portland for my Timber/land business.
I spent 9 nights a month in my Portland/Beaverton apartment I liked not having to pack clothes so the apartment was a better fit for me than going in and out of a motel / hotel all the time and pre air bnb.
so these were larger garden apartments 200 to 300 units corporate owned.. And those all ran by the letter of their contracts there was no wiggle room you either did it their way or you were gone.. So for an independent LL to enforce their contract that is their right and it does not make them bad people or bad landlords its how they choose to run their business.
Having owned a bunch of rentals Over 200 SFR's I know myself personally I am a terrible landlord I am way to easy and cave way to quickly and tenants abuse my good nature. for instance I had one in Indy who calls they just have a baby its super cold cant afford heat and rent.. So I say well for sure got to take care of the baby. Why dont you just skip 3 months of rent we will prorate it and you can pay off over the summer we all agree.. when it came time to make the next payment after the 3 months they just moved out LOL.. Burned again being the nice guy.. I finally turned management over to my Staff.. and my ladies that worked for me one being a single mother she was very tough .. and our collections went up.. if the tenant got me on the phone it was history I would just agree to get them off the phone. So now I just have a few rentals all A class white collar tenants pay top market rents.. seems to be a better move for me.
- 5yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
Originally posted by @Sean Walsh:
@Nathan G. This is a very relevant issue - especially here in Denver. Right now a city ordinance is being considered by City Council to put in place a landlord licensing regime that includes a fee and an inspection. In parallel, an activist group will soon be circulating petitions to pass a $75 per year per door tax on landlords.
How will landlords pay for that $75 licensing fee and the ancillary expenses that will surely come along with it? By passing the cost on to the tenants.
If paying a 75 dollar annual fee is a deal killer and would preclude someone from properly maintaining their property seems like they are in the wrong business or something else is not right.
- Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes5y
Originally posted by @Patrick M.:
@Mary M. it appears that you conflate being a bad landlord with having an opinion or business model different from you.
Again these posts that make you cringe, ie me charging an unlock fee, has nothing to do with being a bad landlord. But you and others project your beliefs/business models on it and find that it does.You are not the arbiter of who is and who is not a bad landlord. If you want to opine that it is a bad business model then that is fine, but it has zero to do with providing a safe, secure home and abiding by the terms of a lease and the laws governing it.
There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with doing this for, and being motivated by, profit. I do this for money, as I said before- this actually makes me a far better landlord. Simply saying that makes liberals and some tenants cringe.
Look back at the original site which was shared, negating the clearly fake texts, can you say that anyone on here is promoting leaving a hole in the ceiling? Throwing Irish spring soap on a dead animal carcass?
There are certainly times when people come on here and ask, "do I have to fix this?" And the overwhelming reply by the regulars is the right answer.
For the record I never said you shouldn't charge a tenant an unlock fee. My lease has a $50 unlock fee. Imagine if your tenant owned the house and locked themselves out. They would be forced to use a locksmith. Our local locksmith would charge more than $50 to unlock a door, so I am a less expensive option. Let's be real about this, whether a landlord or locksmith unlocks a door, it is "easy money" in the context of not being a hard task. Regardless, it takes 60 minutes of time. As I scale up in rentals, it becomes difficult to continually give up an hour of time. Personally, I would rather have the tenant call a locksmith than interrupt time with my family. I need an hour with child more than I need $50.
Whether we talk about unlock fees or late fees, these fees are usually in place to steer behavior not generate profit. If my tenant knows they have to pay $50 late fee on the 6th, they will make sure rent is paid by the 5th. I have tenants who pay rent on the 5th every month. I guarantee if the grace period went until the 10th, those same tenants would pay on the 10th. If I tell tenants there is a $50 unlock fee, they are more likely to hide a spare key or give one to a family member to call them in case of emergency.
I agree that the examples given in that "landlord hate forum" are next level disturbing. If a landlord came on BP talking about doing ANY of those things, the members on this site would attack them and run them off the site.
I get bothered most by landlord in-fighting about silly things, like rent increases, late fees and unlock fees. We are all professionals here. If your colleague or competition chooses to charge more or less money, that is their choice. If a tenant doesn't like it, they can move and find a different landlord. That is the beauty of a free market system, nobody is stuck with only one option.
- Rental Property Investor · Red Bank, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes5y
@Jay Hinrichs I appreciate that. Here in NJ they can't turn off the heat in winter... so I would have informed them of that ;)
I guess my service days have instilled in me the comfort, uniformity and equality that abiding by jointly agreed to set of rules provides.
Also, as I said earlier, we all have vastly different markets, rentals and tenant classes.
I live in a very litigious state... If I cut a family a break and not a wealth, young Asian professional, I am in trouble. And so the slippery slope begins...
- Rental Property Investor · Red Bank, NJ · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes5y
@Joe Splitrock great points and I explained that I mistakenly included you in that post. My unlock fee was from 2 years ago and hasn't happened since. Nor have I had a late rent.
The "easy money" wasn't a brag, as others stated... it was a simple fact. They would have had me walk away from the conversation with my family patting me on my back, deceiving them of the truth. Not my style.
Truth be told, as I said before, after the very real hell of repositioning- this is easy money. Sorry, but if it wasn't I would get out. I shouldn't be a bad guy for saying that. We are on here partly to share our experiences ad success with others.
- Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes5y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Maybe because people are starting to understand that there really is something fundamentally immoral and wrong with a system that allows a small group of people who either have tons of extra money or are able to get approved for multiple mortgages to hoard extra property then charge people for a basic human necessity, sticking them in a position of essentially modern peasant who will then almost certainly never be able to save up enough to buy their own home and build equity and enjoy the stability homeownership brings s it stands now, millions of people are stuck in a cycle of paying someone else’s bills and never getting to enjoy any of the benefits of owning a home. Banks make the requirements for a home loan so stringent at times that many people can’t get approved but they are paying more in rent than they would be with a mortgage. All to pay for someone else to have extra homes they don’t need. Or worse. To literally just make the owner even richer for the ones who are. Shelter is a basic human need. It should be an investment for someone to not have to work.
when people are seeing apartment complexes sending cruel and tone deaf eviction notices and not repairing issues during a global pandemic and young kids in their 20s whose rich parents give them money all the time buying apartment building and rental houses to kick the people out and raise the rents, while evicting people who are a day late and being entitled little d bags about it then yeah. Normal polite Society generally is going to have some issues with that.Umm, can you please explain how landlords can easily get multiple mortgages at the same time banks are making requirements for a home loan so stringent nobody can buy one? Both at the same time?
Stringent for the average American. Landlords get special consideration by the banks because they know landlords will pass the mortgage costs along to the renters. And they go into banks and apply for loans usually with quite a bit of money already stashed away.
banks are more interested in lending to investors that are in it for profit rather than the average American who may end up out of work and who won’t bring in endless money.Source: I worked in banking for four years and still know many who do. This was absolutely the way they pushed us to think when I was a personal banker and it’s how they push the mortgage bankers I know
Actually terms for mortgages for rental properties are always more stringent than owner occupied loans. For example you can get a FHA loan as a owner occupant at 5% down. Most all rental property loans are 20% and often 25% down. Also interest rate on rentals are typically at least 0.5% to 1% or more higher than owner occupied properties. I think a more likely explanation is that landlords tend to have better credit because it is the lifeblood of an investor. While the average consumer is irresponsible with their credit and finds it harder to get a loan. I don't really think that investors drive market values of Single Family homes in any meaningful way.
The problem in the US generally is lack of wage growth. That is why I fully support the $15 minimum wage push. And unionization and policies in general that help people earn more money.
- Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes5y
Because I legitimately want to understand the way investors and landlords think. Why they behave the way they do. And to learn little tricks and things they do so I can look out for them when renting in the future. And to provide a renters point of view.
I do not have an exaggerated sense of entitlement. Forgive me but I am on the spectrum and my mind works differently and views things in a different way than most people.
it just seems inherently wrong that people who are only interested in getting richer have so much control over the day to day lives of people. That at any moment they can decide to force a person into the street and feel nothing at all about it. That they can ruin a persons name and credit, and blacklist them so they can’t find anywhere else to live, eventually just furthering the cycle of homelessness, poverty, death.Wow, so many wrong assumptions in one paragraph. First every business is interested in making money. Including more essential ones like doctors. Thats the system we live in and singling out any one business (rental property) doesn't make sense. As for "getting richer" the average net return on a rental property is only about 5%. Secondly we can't force anyone out into the street. There is a process and there has to be a reason. There are courts and laws. Third, yes, we can report on credit etc and other landlords will rightly not want to take a risk on such people and get stiffed. But meanwhile a tenant gets to occupy and control a property worth hundreds of thousands and do whatever they like to it while they live there. Shouldnt the owner of the property be compensated for that risk? As someone who has had property trashed by bad tenants I can tell you the risk is very real.
- 5yNed J.Pro MemberInvestor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
People always feel its some growing trend.... with ZERO factual data to support that....... negative feeling towards landlords in nothing new.... just like hating all the companies behind your bills..... been that way FOREVER...... the difference is now there is social media so we can all see things now that have been around for decades....used to be only your inner circle heard you ***** and complain..... now the entire world can hear it...... doesn't mean it growing.... just means we are more aware of it since we now have hundreds of source of info smacking us in the face every day....
How do we combat it? We run our business with some ethics, respect and professionalism....... in other words , don't be a D**CK..... some of those posts, the landlord probably deserve it...... most don't
- Rental Property Investor · Hugo, MN · Member since 2014 · 283 posts · 257 votes5y
@Eric Weldon-Schilling makes sense. Here’s the biggest thing most people could do better at. Focus on the things you can control and forget about the rest.
Don't like being a renter or don't like the "imbalance" between landlords and tenants? Become a landlord. Buy a duplex via FHA with 3.5% down and rent out the other side. If you can't beat em, join em.
I grew up with the mindset that the rich and wealthy were greedy and selfish and immoral. As I grew up and learned more, my views have shifted. It’s a whole lot more fun spending your time trying to build your wealth instead of complaining online about how unfair life is. Life isn’t fair: what are you gonna do about it?
- Specialist · Portland, OR · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes5y
@Account ClosedForgive me but I am on the spectrum and my mind works differently and views things in a different way than most people.
My painter has similar issues. He is in his 50's and rents but does fix-up work on his landlords property. He does this kind of work because he does not fit into society really, but is extremely organized and a fantastic painter. He could afford to buy a house but is just not quite solid enough to do it. He makes great money, $2400 for a few days work. It takes a little getting used to him but hey we are all different, that is what makes the world go around.
- Rental Property Investor · Hugo, MN · Member since 2014 · 283 posts · 257 votes5y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Matt J.:
@Eric Weldon-Schilling makes sense. Here’s the biggest thing most people could do better at. Focus on the things you can control and forget about the rest.
Don't like being a renter or don't like the "imbalance" between landlords and tenants? Become a landlord. Buy a duplex via FHA with 3.5% down and rent out the other side. If you can't beat em, join em.
I grew up with the mindset that the rich and wealthy were greedy and selfish and immoral. As I grew up and learned more, my views have shifted. It’s a whole lot more fun spending your time trying to build your wealth instead of complaining online about how unfair life is. Life isn’t fair: what are you gonna do about it?
I don’t think I could be a landlord. I just find the entire system to be inherently exploitative and immoral. If I ever owned more than one property and HAD to rent it out, I would only ask the person renting it to pay the property taxes and all their own utilities. And that would only happen if I inherited a house or something. I would never buy a property for the purpose of renting it out because I wouldn’t want to be tied to a mortgage for somewhere I don’t intend to live
And don’t get me weight I’m not saying every landlord is exploitative and immoral. And I respect that there are many many good people who rent out houses. My previous landlord was great. Nice guy, always understanding and reasonable, kept things fixed and never ever came by. I saw him twice: when he showed me the place and when he gave me the key. Everything was done online and He preferred I pay rent with Venmo when the pandemic first hit we were late with rent the first month but he didn’t give us any problem he even accepted a check from my parents when they decided to pay our rent for April and may because they knew we were worried
After that I made sure he was paid on time every month until we moved out we only left because the place was too small and we thought we found the perfect house to rent across the street.
then we found out that this landlord for the house we are in now is a slumlord who won’t fix things and a complete jerk. He wouldn’t give me a copy of a written lease and is now trying to evict us for holding over because he terminated our month to month lease because we are a married same sex couple and not brothers as he originally thought. He takes advantage of the Hispanic community by renting to them without any protections for them and then doesn’t make repairs when needed. When he wants someone out he just tells him they’re there illegally and they hes calling the police so they get scared and leave.Sorry you've had poor experiences with landlords. On the idea that making a profit from leasing out property you own being somehow immoral, I just can't get my head around that. Agree to disagree.
- Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes5y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Matt J.:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
Originally posted by @Matt J.:
@Eric Weldon-Schilling makes sense. Here’s the biggest thing most people could do better at. Focus on the things you can control and forget about the rest.
fair enough. I just can’t wrap my head around it being ok to have so much power over a persons basic human need. It just seems wrong that a persons home is someone else’s “investment asset.”
but like you said, agree to disagree.
I know I sometimes may jump to the worst assumptions and things about landlords but I do not hate people all people who own property and rent it out. Just the ones who are truly awfulEric,
That being said, yes, I think you have a point. There's something sacred about the concept of a home, and paying tenants (subsidized and unsubsidized) deserve to have a decent one under decent terms with overwatch of the landlord-tenant relationship coming from a qualified, experienced mediator. Investing in residential real estate and running properties should not be the same the investing in Tesla shares or pork belly futures.
I live in Pennsylvania and practically every aspect of the tenant-landlord relationship is legally controlled by the Magisterial District Judges here. I have never lost a minute's sleep about evicting anyone, because eviction is not up to me here. I present my contract dispute to the MDJ of the area and they make their decisions.
Our collective experience as Americans is that we've found administrations at various levels (federal, state, local) are not able to actually run a working public housing scheme. Instead, they fail miserably at it (please look into this, you'll find examples galore of this). We landlords exist because what we do what we do better than the known alternatives.
There are plenty of landlords who try to do the job and are absolutely awful at it. They routinely do shameful, manipulative, disgusting things to their tenants. And they get away with it. Yet it should also be noted that the very worst of abuses are sometimes handled within the industry by people you might not believe. If you ever have a minute, look at the absolutely damning YouTube exposes that @James Wise carried out on con artist Clayton Morris's business model last year. James got sued for his troubles and had to defend himself on his own dime over months of frivolous legal action brought out by Clayton Morris's legal team.
I too believe it's time for things to change, and that some of that change should come from various regulatory agencies. There are plenty of reasonable renter protections that this industry would be better off having in place, protections that you're probably going to find that many, many of the people participating here on Bigger Pockets already include in their own business models. You're also going to find quite a few landlords here who have experienced living well below the poverty line in their childhoods and that is a large part of why they choose to go into real estate, especially affordable housing, C-class properties. I'm part of this trend myself.I think, in the end, the people you're really upset with aren't really here and contributing on Bigger Pockets. They get run off this site. In the past, I have made several monumentally stupid assertions about landlording here. You either deal with the criticism here and improve or choose to skulk away.
I've looked you up on FB, and I have to agree that your current landlord is a moron for assuming you and your same-sex partner were brothers. He is twice a moron for deciding that you as a gay married couple are less desirable to rent to than a heterosexual married couple. It should be (and really is) none of his damned business according to the laws of a country he enjoys the benefits of living, working, and running a business in. I guarantee you that your current landlord will never make an appearance here.
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