Hiring Lawn Care Personnel or....

Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2019 · 51 posts · 31 votes

Hi BP!

I'm attempting to solve a challenge.

Currently we have 20 units, all needing mowing/lawncare.

Currently I have about 6 companies handling this because the units are spread throughout the Chicago suburbs. Although I have great relationships with my main contractor (handling 6 units), he is unwilling to travel a bit further to handle some of the others.

This presents 2 challenges-
1) The payroll/admin that my wife goes through each month, isn't worth the hassle. Way to much QC, and back and forth. They submit pictures to a "google form" after a mow, and she uses that as proof to pay. Obviously, they oftentimes don't submit pics, and/or submit same pics twice. Again, the hassle isn't worth it anymore.

2) Cost. We pay either $30 or $35 a cut, depending on size, which in itself, is no concern. However, all of these contractors prefer weekly cuts, and if we go to bi-weekly, cost rises. In a perfect world, I'd love a cut 3x monthly, not 4. With a model of 3x/month, we could be saving $30/month on each property. $600/monthly.

I'm considering posting a job on Indeed or something for 2022 season, and hiring in-house, purchasing the riding lawn mower and trailer, the whole thing. What is everyone else doing to solve their lawn care with multiple units?

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Colleen F.Pro Member

Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes

@Bob Wilson If the hassle isn't worth it forget the pictures, if you have established relationships that is a bit much. Have them submit their invoices. Trust buy verify doesn't mean you have to check on them every mow.

Another thought is if you hire someone it is not a really attractive job. They would have to want to work only part of the year. They would have to have a truck set up for towing a trailer. They would need to be insured. It is too much time commitment for a part time job for some retired person but not enough for full time and its only part of the year. And they would have to be reliable and not want vacation during the summer.

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Wesley W.
Rental Property Investor · The Vampire State · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
5y
Looks good on paper, but just remember that person will be considered an employee rather than an independent contractor. As you going to supply the equipment/gas, that creates a new liability. Keep in mind you will still need to babysit this person as well.

If you are willing to take on the differing challenges of having an employee, it may be worth it. I'll be curious if you can offer the position at a price that will be both efficient for you and attractive to applicants. No one wants to work around here these days.
3 Reply
Matthew Paul
Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
5y
@Bob Wilson Mowing companies schedule routes . Most wont do bi weekly and if they do they charge almost double because it takes more time and wear and tear on equipment .
A 3 times a month model doesnt work , when all the other customers are on a weekly cutting .
Grass cutting has tight margins . Changing a route to appease 1 customer generally doesnt happen
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Bob Wilson
OP
Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2019 · 51 posts · 31 votes
5y
@Wesley W. Finding a hard worker, will be the largest challenge, agreed. Starting at 40k, is doable for us. We have employees now, so that isn't a concern for me. 40k isn't much these days, but we have to start somewhere.
30 units, 3 cuts a month. That's 90 cuts.
5 cuts a day, M-F gets the job done. That's 4-5 hours at most, which is part-time work.
It shouldn't take more then 5 hours to cut and trim 5 lawns. The crew that hits my home is in and out in 15 min. But its 2 people, so even if our guy takes 30-45 min, he should be able to do 5 cuts in 5 hours.
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Bob Wilson
OP
Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2019 · 51 posts · 31 votes
5y
@Matthew Paul I agree, which is why I'm looking for other options. 3x monthly doesn't work for most companies.
I'm curious if anyone does something different with 10+ units spread around their city. Or does everyone pay 3-4 companies to handle the weekly cuts.
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Account Closed
Member since 2020 · 983 posts · 1k+ votes
5y
The biggest problem you will run into is if you hire an illegal immigrant, or if the company you hire uses an illegal immigrant. I wrote several posts about my company having 18 worker comp claims and 3 civil lawsuits filed against my company between 2015 and 2018. The worker comp claims were not a problem, but the 3 civil lawsuits meant I had to hire and pay an attorney and the cost for my attorney and the ''Go Away Money' cost me $180,000 from my pocket and I got away super cheap because the attorney I hired is a woman and she works hard to keep costs low, but my attorney fees were still $75,000 for just 1 case and I paid the Plaintiff and his attorney $65,000.
There is a new fad where in 2015 attorneys figured out how to capitalize on several new laws that went into effect in 2000. So, starting in 2015, employees started filing CIVIL LAWSUITS for not getting 10-minue uninterrupted breaks every 4 hours (actually every 2 hours, but I don't know why the laws says 4 hours), for not getting a 1-hour uninterrupted lunch break, for being mis-classified as an Exempt employee (independent contractor) when you report to the IRS, for not getting proper Wage Earning Statements, for not getting paid overtime, for age and race discrimination and the list goes on.
Here is the worst part. No attorney cares whether or not you are innocent or guilty of any of the above. They file the lawsuit, anyway, because they know you will pay money to settle through mediation to avoid your having to pay your own attorney up to $400,000 to prepare to go to a jury trial and then they know that even if the Plaintiff wins only $1.00 you will have to pat the Plaintiff's attorney and that could be another $400k.
If you don't think this can happen to you, then you are 100% wrong because when a lawn mower's employee is injured even when working for another customer and that employee sues his boss then you had better be prepared with EPLI insurance because YOU WILL BE NAMED IN THE LAWSUIT and that means you will be sued and you will need to retain an attorney. The average attorney you call will want no less than $5,000 to $15,000 for a retainer and my attorney works super cheap and some of my monthly bills was $21,000, JUST FOR ONE MONTH.
After reading your post, it sounds like your wife is getting frustrated, worrying too much and micro-managing the paying of the lawn mower companies.
We own several properties in several states and we deal with many lawn mower companies. My wife gets the monthly bills and we never required proof as to whether or not the company cut the grass nor did we ever care how many times the company cut the grass AS LONG AS WE NEVER RECEIVED COMPLAINTS and we never received a complaint about the grass not being cut nor did we ever receive a complaint about the grass being too high,
Just pay the bills and if you get complaints then deal with the issues.
Check on EPLI insurance because it is not expensive and will protect you in case someone files a civil lawsuit. One new group of people filing civil lawsuits is onsite apartment managers. Many apartment managers are claiming they don't get paid for overtime, don't get Wage Earning Statements and they claim they are employees and not independent contractors meaning they sue you for filing them as Exempt from paying taxes when you should be withholding taxes from their earning, matching their payroll taxes and paying into social security, medicare, etc.. You may not think it will happen to you, but all a manager needs to do is to either get greedy and want some easy cash, or should you anger your manager in any way and some friend gives them the phone number to an attorney then you you had better be prepared to pay no less than $100k to make the case go away, or maybe up to $250k.
I had a mediation to settle a case the day before Thanksgiving. The mediation was $10,000 for just 1 day. My attorney attended the Zoom meeting with her Junior Attorney. The cost for the mediation for 1 day with my attorneys' fees was $23,000. My ex-employee was suing me for $1.2 million. Since I was paying $23,000 for 1 day to have mediation through Zoom I was highly motivated to settle that day. My ex-employee's attorney was threatehing to take the case to a Jury trial. So, the mediator asked me for my highest offer and the Plaintiff's attorney does not hear any conversations I have with the mediator. So, the mediator spoke with the Plaintiff and the mediation said they would accept $65,000.
Everyone knows I did not owe the Plaintiff one penny, but everyone also knows that I have to pay something to make the case go away. Of the $65,000 paid, I am betting that after the attorney took all his cut the Plaintiff probably waked away with about $8,000 and my total cost with my attorney for that case was about $135,000.
3 Reply
John Warren
Real Estate Broker · 3412 S. Harlem Avenue Riverside, IL 60546 · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
5y
@Bob Wilson I feel your pain. I am at 82 doors now, and all of my properties are close together in Berwyn, Cicero and Lyons. The main issue with trying to in source is that you could easily create an even bigger problem. What happens when your guy goes on vacation for two weeks in the middle of the summer? What happens when your guy quits in the summer? What happens when your guy takes longer than he should to do the work and you are actually paying more than you were before?
It all comes down to opportunity cost. It sounds like you are doing a great job building out a portfolio. You also are a real estate agent. Make sure you are not spending your time chasing pennies instead of earning dollars.
1 Reply
Colleen F.Pro Member
Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
5y
@Bob Wilson If the hassle isn't worth it forget the pictures, if you have established relationships that is a bit much. Have them submit their invoices. Trust buy verify doesn't mean you have to check on them every mow.
Another thought is if you hire someone it is not a really attractive job. They would have to want to work only part of the year. They would have to have a truck set up for towing a trailer. They would need to be insured. It is too much time commitment for a part time job for some retired person but not enough for full time and its only part of the year. And they would have to be reliable and not want vacation during the summer.
3 Reply
Joe SplitrockPro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
5y
We have only single family homes and require the tenant does lawn care and snow removal. I am assuming that is not an option for you, but thought I would put that option out there.
In my experience, $30-35 per cut is a fairly good rate. You may see 15 minutes of work between two people, so it looks like only 30 minutes. The total time is probably over an hour when you include travel time and breaks. Travel time is a huge cost in that business and it is why none of them will do all your properties.
Forcing them to upload pictures is really micromanaging and it is probably wasting extra time for your wife. I would consider other ways to streamline payment. One way would be to contract at a monthly rate. Tell the mowers you will pay $120 per month for weekly mowing and you will send payment on X date each month. My company used to do this at our facility for lawn and snow, so we had a fixed monthly rate.
I am not sure it is practical to hire an employee to do this:
1. This is only a part time and part of the year job. The type of person taking work like this is more prone to quitting or not showing up. Any decent employee will want year round full time work. Maybe you could find a partially retired person or college kid to do it, but otherwise I see issues.
2. You are calculating 5 cuts a day and thinking that is five hours, but don't forget maintenance time, travel time, breaks and allocation for bad weather. I could see 5 cuts a day becoming a near full time job.
3. As others mentioned, you have to worry about vacations, sick employees, people just quitting, work injuries, etc. You will also have equipment maintenance and purchase cost.
4. Even though you have less contractors to manage, now you have an additional employee to manage. Someone needs to make sure they cut the lawn and do a good job. You have the liability aspect which means you need insurance coverage.
My advice is negotiate a monthly rate and pay it on the same day every month. If your systems allow it, set it up as a recurring payment that is automatic for the mowing season. If you are worried about them not mowing, you could ask them to just just send text every time they mow or install cameras at the property. Depending on property size, security cameras may not be a bad idea anyways.
3 Reply
Adam Martin
Rental Property Investor · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
5y
I do the same as @Joe Splitrock and just have the tenants cut the grass. For 30-35 that is a fair price per cut which makes me think these are regular sized lots and many may be single family homes. For all new leases I’d specify tenant is responsible for lawn maintenance and they can either mow or pay someone to do it their choice. For existing tenants offer instead of an annual rent increase for the year they can take on lawn maintenance and keep the same rate. For me the biggest draw to sfh’s is the being more hands off and this sounds anything but. I know having the tenants handle the yard work gets some people riled up about liability but families cut their grass each week all around the suburbs and injuries are rare. Do these lawn companies also handle your snow removal
2 Reply
Scott M.
Real Estate Broker · Rochester Hills, MI · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
5y
At our places tenants cut grass/shovel snow for the most part. That said we do have vacant homes to worry about. Finding good/reliable grass guys is not easy. That said, I would never ever never never ever by a mower and hire someone. The liability that creates for you/your company is now exponentially higher then it was when you subcontracted out. Not just while they are cutting the grass but also driving to and from. And now you are trusting a riding mower to a stranger that could very simply and easily drive off. I get managing and paying contractors is not fun and way more time consuming than anyone will give you credit for....that said, it is far easier then the issues you are setting yourself up for. Grass is not always greener.
0 Reply
Matthew Paul
Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
5y
Having 2 or 3 companies do the work is a good thing . If one screws up hand the work to another one of the companies . I agree with @Joe Splitrock the picture taking isnt worth the time , just pay them monthly .
1 Reply
Bob Wilson
OP
Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2019 · 51 posts · 31 votes
5y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
The biggest problem you will run into is if you hire an illegal immigrant, or if the company you hire uses an illegal immigrant. I wrote several posts about my company having 18 worker comp claims and 3 civil lawsuits filed against my company between 2015 and 2018. The worker comp claims were not a problem, but the 3 civil lawsuits meant I had to hire and pay an attorney and the cost for my attorney and the ''Go Away Money' cost me $180,000 from my pocket and I got away super cheap because the attorney I hired is a woman and she works hard to keep costs low, but my attorney fees were still $75,000 for just 1 case and I paid the Plaintiff and his attorney $65,000.
There is a new fad where in 2015 attorneys figured out how to capitalize on several new laws that went into effect in 2000. So, starting in 2015, employees started filing CIVIL LAWSUITS for not getting 10-minue uninterrupted breaks every 4 hours (actually every 2 hours, but I don't know why the laws says 4 hours), for not getting a 1-hour uninterrupted lunch break, for being mis-classified as an Exempt employee (independent contractor) when you report to the IRS, for not getting proper Wage Earning Statements, for not getting paid overtime, for age and race discrimination and the list goes on.
Here is the worst part. No attorney cares whether or not you are innocent or guilty of any of the above. They file the lawsuit, anyway, because they know you will pay money to settle through mediation to avoid your having to pay your own attorney up to $400,000 to prepare to go to a jury trial and then they know that even if the Plaintiff wins only $1.00 you will have to pat the Plaintiff's attorney and that could be another $400k.
If you don't think this can happen to you, then you are 100% wrong because when a lawn mower's employee is injured even when working for another customer and that employee sues his boss then you had better be prepared with EPLI insurance because YOU WILL BE NAMED IN THE LAWSUIT and that means you will be sued and you will need to retain an attorney. The average attorney you call will want no less than $5,000 to $15,000 for a retainer and my attorney works super cheap and some of my monthly bills was $21,000, JUST FOR ONE MONTH.
After reading your post, it sounds like your wife is getting frustrated, worrying too much and micro-managing the paying of the lawn mower companies.
We own several properties in several states and we deal with many lawn mower companies. My wife gets the monthly bills and we never required proof as to whether or not the company cut the grass nor did we ever care how many times the company cut the grass AS LONG AS WE NEVER RECEIVED COMPLAINTS and we never received a complaint about the grass not being cut nor did we ever receive a complaint about the grass being too high,
Just pay the bills and if you get complaints then deal with the issues.
Check on EPLI insurance because it is not expensive and will protect you in case someone files a civil lawsuit. One new group of people filing civil lawsuits is onsite apartment managers. Many apartment managers are claiming they don't get paid for overtime, don't get Wage Earning Statements and they claim they are employees and not independent contractors meaning they sue you for filing them as Exempt from paying taxes when you should be withholding taxes from their earning, matching their payroll taxes and paying into social security, medicare, etc.. You may not think it will happen to you, but all a manager needs to do is to either get greedy and want some easy cash, or should you anger your manager in any way and some friend gives them the phone number to an attorney then you you had better be prepared to pay no less than $100k to make the case go away, or maybe up to $250k.
I had a mediation to settle a case the day before Thanksgiving. The mediation was $10,000 for just 1 day. My attorney attended the Zoom meeting with her Junior Attorney. The cost for the mediation for 1 day with my attorneys' fees was $23,000. My ex-employee was suing me for $1.2 million. Since I was paying $23,000 for 1 day to have mediation through Zoom I was highly motivated to settle that day. My ex-employee's attorney was threatehing to take the case to a Jury trial. So, the mediator asked me for my highest offer and the Plaintiff's attorney does not hear any conversations I have with the mediator. So, the mediator spoke with the Plaintiff and the mediation said they would accept $65,000.
Everyone knows I did not owe the Plaintiff one penny, but everyone also knows that I have to pay something to make the case go away. Of the $65,000 paid, I am betting that after the attorney took all his cut the Plaintiff probably waked away with about $8,000 and my total cost with my attorney for that case was about $135,000.

Wow Jack, that's something! I'm sorry to hear this.
You didn't have EPLI insurance at the time? What other insurances have you found valuable over time....
0 Reply
Bob Wilson
OP
Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2019 · 51 posts · 31 votes
5y
Originally posted by @John Warren:
@Bob Wilson I feel your pain. I am at 82 doors now, and all of my properties are close together in Berwyn, Cicero and Lyons. The main issue with trying to in source is that you could easily create an even bigger problem. What happens when your guy goes on vacation for two weeks in the middle of the summer? What happens when your guy quits in the summer? What happens when your guy takes longer than he should to do the work and you are actually paying more than you were before?
It all comes down to opportunity cost. It sounds like you are doing a great job building out a portfolio. You also are a real estate agent. Make sure you are not spending your time chasing pennies instead of earning dollars.

Great questions, I don't have all the answer, yet. :)
I wouldn't go this route without investing in the trailer/machine as a company, that way we can have our assistant property mgr. assist when the primary person is on vaca or sick. It's a deal breaker otherwise, because to your point, that will happen.
As far as taking longer, that also could happen, but 5 lawns a day shouldn't take more then 5 hours. We both know, professionals take 15 min to hit a yard. Contract will have to be specific of course. And perhaps hourly isn't the best option vs salary. Many things to consider.

0 Reply
John Clark
Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
5y
my main contractor (handling 6 units), he is unwilling to travel a bit further to handle some of the others.

. . . .

5 cuts a day, M-F gets the job done. That's 4-5 hours at most, which is part-time work.

----------------------------------------------

You've got a reality disconnect. Sounds like there's significant travel time -- so much so that your main guy won't do certain areas, but then you want to be dismissive of travel time and say it's one-lawn-per-hour.

go to a once every two week schedule and pay monthly.

You might also want to consider concentrating on ownership in just a few towns to cut down on all your management headaches, not just lawn care
1 Reply
Austin F.
Investor · MI · Member since 2015 · 227 posts · 478 votes
5y
I would start requiring the tenants to mow. At 35 per cut you could even consider including the mower if you think it would be a barrier for tenants.
Duplexes I have the downstairs unit responsible for lawn care.
Or seek to lower the administrative time and quit requiring verification. If you're contracted with a company that has a name on the door of their truck a few check ins at the beginning of the contract, then put it on auto pay and wait for any complaints.
0 Reply
Aaron Gaffney
Investor · Santa Barbara, CA · Member since 2016 · 75 posts · 35 votes
5y
@Bob Wilson probably more than you want to invest right off the bat, but if you save capital expenses on all of your properties, at some point you might consider going in, getting them as far as the landscape goes and put in low maintenance landscape everywhere. You could likely do this for a few thousand dollars, and it looks like you’re paying at least that much of a year in mowing costs anyways. Grass is one of the biggest mistakes available to everyone’s landscape, And usually put in by default
1 Reply
Aaron Gaffney
Investor · Santa Barbara, CA · Member since 2016 · 75 posts · 35 votes
5y
@Wesley W. Same situation, anywhere in the US. I could pay somebody $50,000 a year, for entry-level labor with no skills needed, all they need to do is show up daily. Most people still won’t do it! It’s a joke.
0 Reply
Bob Wilson
OP
Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2019 · 51 posts · 31 votes
5y
Originally posted by @Colleen F.:
@Bob Wilson If the hassle isn't worth it forget the pictures, if you have established relationships that is a bit much. Have them submit their invoices. Trust buy verify doesn't mean you have to check on them every mow.
Another thought is if you hire someone it is not a really attractive job. They would have to want to work only part of the year. They would have to have a truck set up for towing a trailer. They would need to be insured. It is too much time commitment for a part time job for some retired person but not enough for full time and its only part of the year. And they would have to be reliable and not want vacation during the summer.

Great points!

0 Reply
Bob Wilson
OP
Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2019 · 51 posts · 31 votes
5y
Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
We have only single family homes and require the tenant does lawn care and snow removal. I am assuming that is not an option for you, but thought I would put that option out there.
In my experience, $30-35 per cut is a fairly good rate. You may see 15 minutes of work between two people, so it looks like only 30 minutes. The total time is probably over an hour when you include travel time and breaks. Travel time is a huge cost in that business and it is why none of them will do all your properties.
Forcing them to upload pictures is really micromanaging and it is probably wasting extra time for your wife. I would consider other ways to streamline payment. One way would be to contract at a monthly rate. Tell the mowers you will pay $120 per month for weekly mowing and you will send payment on X date each month. My company used to do this at our facility for lawn and snow, so we had a fixed monthly rate.
I am not sure it is practical to hire an employee to do this:
1. This is only a part time and part of the year job. The type of person taking work like this is more prone to quitting or not showing up. Any decent employee will want year round full time work. Maybe you could find a partially retired person or college kid to do it, but otherwise I see issues.
2. You are calculating 5 cuts a day and thinking that is five hours, but don't forget maintenance time, travel time, breaks and allocation for bad weather. I could see 5 cuts a day becoming a near full time job.
3. As others mentioned, you have to worry about vacations, sick employees, people just quitting, work injuries, etc. You will also have equipment maintenance and purchase cost.
4. Even though you have less contractors to manage, now you have an additional employee to manage. Someone needs to make sure they cut the lawn and do a good job. You have the liability aspect which means you need insurance coverage.
My advice is negotiate a monthly rate and pay it on the same day every month. If your systems allow it, set it up as a recurring payment that is automatic for the mowing season. If you are worried about them not mowing, you could ask them to just just send text every time they mow or install cameras at the property. Depending on property size, security cameras may not be a bad idea anyways.

We have exterior cameras at all units. ok, so forget the pics, I get it.
Our tenant pays $6,500-$7,500/monthly, so while we can "require" them to mow lawn, in my opinion, it's something we should handle for that cost. Good feedback though, thx.
0 Reply
- Joe SplitrockPro Member
  Moderator
  Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
  5y
  Originally posted by @Bob Wilson:
  Originally posted by @Joe Splitrock:
  We have only single family homes and require the tenant does lawn care and snow removal. I am assuming that is not an option for you, but thought I would put that option out there.
  In my experience, $30-35 per cut is a fairly good rate. You may see 15 minutes of work between two people, so it looks like only 30 minutes. The total time is probably over an hour when you include travel time and breaks. Travel time is a huge cost in that business and it is why none of them will do all your properties.
  Forcing them to upload pictures is really micromanaging and it is probably wasting extra time for your wife. I would consider other ways to streamline payment. One way would be to contract at a monthly rate. Tell the mowers you will pay $120 per month for weekly mowing and you will send payment on X date each month. My company used to do this at our facility for lawn and snow, so we had a fixed monthly rate.
  I am not sure it is practical to hire an employee to do this:
  1. This is only a part time and part of the year job. The type of person taking work like this is more prone to quitting or not showing up. Any decent employee will want year round full time work. Maybe you could find a partially retired person or college kid to do it, but otherwise I see issues.
  2. You are calculating 5 cuts a day and thinking that is five hours, but don't forget maintenance time, travel time, breaks and allocation for bad weather. I could see 5 cuts a day becoming a near full time job.
  3. As others mentioned, you have to worry about vacations, sick employees, people just quitting, work injuries, etc. You will also have equipment maintenance and purchase cost.
  4. Even though you have less contractors to manage, now you have an additional employee to manage. Someone needs to make sure they cut the lawn and do a good job. You have the liability aspect which means you need insurance coverage.
  My advice is negotiate a monthly rate and pay it on the same day every month. If your systems allow it, set it up as a recurring payment that is automatic for the mowing season. If you are worried about them not mowing, you could ask them to just just send text every time they mow or install cameras at the property. Depending on property size, security cameras may not be a bad idea anyways.
  
  We have exterior cameras at all units. ok, so forget the pics, I get it.
  Our tenant pays $6,500-$7,500/monthly, so while we can "require" them to mow lawn, in my opinion, it's something we should handle for that cost. Good feedback though, thx.
  
  If your tenants are paying $6500-7000 monthly, then I wouldn't be worrying about $30-35 per week. Just figure out how to streamline billing and make it easier on your wife. It is great to try to save money, but when you are renting higher end, you also need to recognize the costs of doing business.
  1 Reply
Bob Wilson
OP
Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2019 · 51 posts · 31 votes
5y
@John Clark @Aaron Gaffney

Concentrating in a few towns doesn't generate $6,500-$7,500/monthly, spreading out is how we dominate our industry John.
Aaron, I agree, but since grass is present, I'm just looking for other options then working with 5 companies at once. I get it, not a easy solution aside from sticking with these crews and perhaps switching to bi-weekly schedule.

0 Reply
Allan C.
Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 826 posts · 810 votes
5y
@Bob Wilson consider using LawnLove and have that company do all the work finding a provider to meet your needs. You can define your requirements online and not have to waste time on the phone talking to people.
1 Reply
- Steve Vaughan
  Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
  5y
  Originally posted by @Allan C.:
  @Bob Wilson consider using LawnLove and have that company do all the work finding a provider to meet your needs. You can define your requirements online and not have to waste time on the phone talking to people.
  
  Or https://www.yourgreenpal.com/
  The owner of GreenPal was on a millionaires unveiled podcast. They handle paying the mower/vendor.
  I feel the billing AP frustrations with lots of small vendors like snowplowers. Really? I need to lick and stick and mail a $32 check to you? Get on Venmo or something already.
  0 Reply
Bob Wilson
OP
Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2019 · 51 posts · 31 votes
5y
@Allan C.tell me more…
I tried a company called “lawn starter” and they were a joke. Couldn’t find people to handle the job, unbelievable. Is that company running on a different model or what do you know..
0 Reply
Allan C.
Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 826 posts · 810 votes
5y
@Bob Wilson I’ve used LL for 4 years and they have reasonable reliability. Every once in a while their provider misses a service but the company works diligently to resolve the issue. I’m sure it’s the same model as many other central companies that hire independent contractors, but it seems LL has more funding since they are a SF based startup.
0 Reply
Account Closed
Member since 2020 · 983 posts · 1k+ votes
5y
Originally posted by @Bob Wilson:
Originally posted by @Account Closed:
The biggest problem you will run into is if you hire an illegal immigrant, or if the company you hire uses an illegal immigrant. I wrote several posts about my company having 18 worker comp claims and 3 civil lawsuits filed against my company between 2015 and 2018. The worker comp claims were not a problem, but the 3 civil lawsuits meant I had to hire and pay an attorney and the cost for my attorney and the ''Go Away Money' cost me $180,000 from my pocket and I got away super cheap because the attorney I hired is a woman and she works hard to keep costs low, but my attorney fees were still $75,000 for just 1 case and I paid the Plaintiff and his attorney $65,000.
There is a new fad where in 2015 attorneys figured out how to capitalize on several new laws that went into effect in 2000. So, starting in 2015, employees started filing CIVIL LAWSUITS for not getting 10-minue uninterrupted breaks every 4 hours (actually every 2 hours, but I don't know why the laws says 4 hours), for not getting a 1-hour uninterrupted lunch break, for being mis-classified as an Exempt employee (independent contractor) when you report to the IRS, for not getting proper Wage Earning Statements, for not getting paid overtime, for age and race discrimination and the list goes on.
Here is the worst part. No attorney cares whether or not you are innocent or guilty of any of the above. They file the lawsuit, anyway, because they know you will pay money to settle through mediation to avoid your having to pay your own attorney up to $400,000 to prepare to go to a jury trial and then they know that even if the Plaintiff wins only $1.00 you will have to pat the Plaintiff's attorney and that could be another $400k.
If you don't think this can happen to you, then you are 100% wrong because when a lawn mower's employee is injured even when working for another customer and that employee sues his boss then you had better be prepared with EPLI insurance because YOU WILL BE NAMED IN THE LAWSUIT and that means you will be sued and you will need to retain an attorney. The average attorney you call will want no less than $5,000 to $15,000 for a retainer and my attorney works super cheap and some of my monthly bills was $21,000, JUST FOR ONE MONTH.
After reading your post, it sounds like your wife is getting frustrated, worrying too much and micro-managing the paying of the lawn mower companies.
We own several properties in several states and we deal with many lawn mower companies. My wife gets the monthly bills and we never required proof as to whether or not the company cut the grass nor did we ever care how many times the company cut the grass AS LONG AS WE NEVER RECEIVED COMPLAINTS and we never received a complaint about the grass not being cut nor did we ever receive a complaint about the grass being too high,
Just pay the bills and if you get complaints then deal with the issues.
Check on EPLI insurance because it is not expensive and will protect you in case someone files a civil lawsuit. One new group of people filing civil lawsuits is onsite apartment managers. Many apartment managers are claiming they don't get paid for overtime, don't get Wage Earning Statements and they claim they are employees and not independent contractors meaning they sue you for filing them as Exempt from paying taxes when you should be withholding taxes from their earning, matching their payroll taxes and paying into social security, medicare, etc.. You may not think it will happen to you, but all a manager needs to do is to either get greedy and want some easy cash, or should you anger your manager in any way and some friend gives them the phone number to an attorney then you you had better be prepared to pay no less than $100k to make the case go away, or maybe up to $250k.
I had a mediation to settle a case the day before Thanksgiving. The mediation was $10,000 for just 1 day. My attorney attended the Zoom meeting with her Junior Attorney. The cost for the mediation for 1 day with my attorneys' fees was $23,000. My ex-employee was suing me for $1.2 million. Since I was paying $23,000 for 1 day to have mediation through Zoom I was highly motivated to settle that day. My ex-employee's attorney was threatehing to take the case to a Jury trial. So, the mediator asked me for my highest offer and the Plaintiff's attorney does not hear any conversations I have with the mediator. So, the mediator spoke with the Plaintiff and the mediation said they would accept $65,000.
Everyone knows I did not owe the Plaintiff one penny, but everyone also knows that I have to pay something to make the case go away. Of the $65,000 paid, I am betting that after the attorney took all his cut the Plaintiff probably waked away with about $8,000 and my total cost with my attorney for that case was about $135,000.

Wow Jack, that's something! I'm sorry to hear this.
You didn't have EPLI insurance at the time? What other insurances have you found valuable over time....
For every landlord, workers compensation insurance and EPLI insurance is very critical.
The strangest thing about getting sued is I (you) get to learn to protect yourself from being sued by your employees.
As mentioned in my post, when a civil lawsuit is filed nobody cares whether or not you are innocent or guilty and the lawsuit will proceed until you pay your attorney about $75,000 and it will proceed until you pay the Plaintiff and his attorney a wad of cash. There is no dropping the lawsuit because you produce evidence showing you are innocent.
At mentioned, for many years, I have been making me employees sign a form every week and they fill in the blanks stating that they had their 10-minute uninterrupted breaks, 1-hour uninterrupted breaks and they fill in the blanks stating whether or not they have any work related injuries, they sign a copy of their Wage Earning Statement, they fill in the blanks stating the number of hours they work each day and the total for the week and everything about their breaks and number of hours is on their Wage Earning Statement in addition to several other forms my employees sign every week.
BUT, I STILL GET SUED even though me ex-employees' attorneys still have all this proof. The best part for me is when we get to mediation we the Plaintiffs' attorneys are bluffing and no judge will allow the case to go to a jury trial and we know we can settle for less than $100,000 plus my attorney's fees.
This is the reason 3 Civil Lawsuits were filed against my company. I laid off 5 low budget no budged brain dead useless complainers and all 5 of them filed post-termination worker compensation lawsuits with the same attorney on the same day. One of those 5 employees filed a Civil Lawsuit for $1.2 million for all the crap above, but the lawsuit was dropped within 2 weeks and I paid only $25,000 because I had a video that showed the ex-employee stole an $8,000 quadrunner from a storage container I owned in Sandy Valley Nevada (280 miles from Los Angeles). Sadly, I still paid the $25,000 plus about $5,000 to my attorney.
Two more of the 5 employees, using the same attorney filed Civil Lawsuits for $1.2 million each and I had 100% proof that every Cause of Action was false, but their attorney probably never reads one document I sent through my attorney because they know we will pay money to settle. So, I ended up paying $65,000 total to their attorney to settle and that was only $37,500 for each employee minus their attorneys' fees and costs plus my attorney fees was $75,000 plus $10,000 for one day of mediation on Zoom.
I am just trying to make this clear so property owners can protest their self by getting workers comp and EPLI insurance and then spend a few minutes to have workers sign forms saying they are taking their breaks and getting Wage Earning Statements.
In California, I could not find canned wage earning statements that are legal. So, I used MS Access 2003 and developed my own software to print statements because in California businesses have to put the number of Paid Sick Days on Wage Earning Statements and the balance of Paid Sick Days that are used. So, I went even further and put all that crap about breaks and overtime on the Wage Earning Statements.
The next most-important thing landlords need to do is to set up on-site apartment managers as REGULAR EMPLOYEES and NOT INDEPENDENT CONTRACTORS. It seems so easy to just say your managers are independent contractors until you get sued and you never know when a manager will get seriously injured by tripping and spraining an ankle, or breaking a hip, or falling off a ladder, or slipping down stairs when washing them, or they just decide they want to get an attorney to get rich and retire.
My mother owned a HVAC business and she always told me that when ever your best friend is seriously injured bedridden and he needs the money to support himself and his family, he will turn against you and hire an attorney to sue you, PERSONALLY, to pay his bills and all you can imagine when that happens is this person will own all your real estate because the costs for medical and to take care of his family could be in the millions of dollars.

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Joe Norman
Property Manager · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
5y
It sounds like the hassle is in the weekly billing, which is understandable. Will the lawn care companies invoice you on a monthly basis? Thats what my lawn guy does and it works just fine for both of us. I don't require proof that the yards have been cut but I've never had a complaint or any inkling that they aren't getting done.
Another option, as others have stated, is to have the tenant take responsibility for the lawn.
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