I found this very interesting article written by two Notre Dame university business professors. It is short and succinct but very interesting considering Notre Dame was so heavily embroiled in the controversy of President Obama speaking to last year's graduating class (though for other reasons than his marxist outlook).
This line just shot out right at me. "But, if a person is not responsible for his own well-being, how can we expect him to take responsibility for the well-being of others?"
I have yet to meet a socialist who wasn't either funded by a capitalist or used capitalist activities to build the wealth to afford their socialist outlook.
Rehabber · Tucson, AZ · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 802 votes
16y
"The US is ranked as one of the lowest in education among the industrial nations, not all of which are considered "capitalist" the way US is."
Liberal BS! This is completely in accurate from many standpoints the first being the US education system ranks very high when compared to countries who provide well-rounded or multi-disciplined educational systems.
We also provide many for-profit educational opportunities giving many people chances to re-educate, retrain, or reinvent themselves.
Lastly, in many third-world and other developing countries, little education is offered and often ar not accounted for in statistics. For instance, in India, china, Pakistan, many south american countries, there will be a maximum of one child born to a family that will be allowed to even seek an education.
Lastly, I have a friend who is a doctor who holds an administrative position with the local college of medicine. And a statistic which is hardly ever discussed is nearly 30% of the student are foreign born. A high percentage of them are from northern european countries.
In talking with many of them, they do not want to return to their countries and often times marry in order to stay here.
In fact, one nurse, whom got pregnant actually returned to finland to have her baby and then returned here and eventually married the father.
The reason is because the government will not only pay for the birth expense but would also pay her for six months to sit on her ***.
If our education system is so lowly, then why are our colleges booming with foreign students?
Reality is, many people in socialist countries dream to be able to have the freedoms we take for granted here.
Many Americans and wannabe socialists idealize these countries when in fact, many citizens in these countries would gladly trade places with them.
I say some of us should set-up a socialist / capitalist foregin exchange website inviting Americans who want government run healtcare, 60% income tax, 17% interest rates, can trade places with budding capitalists in non-capilistic countries.
Government run healthcare is ridiculous... They can't even run the VA medical system, what makes liberals think they can run a health system 100 times larger?
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
I have yet to meet a socialist who wasn't either funded by a capitalist or used capitalist activities to build the wealth to afford their socialist outlook.
So, you're saying that you need to be wealthy to be a socialist???
I always assumed the socialists were the ones without money, who wanted more than what they had...
What is the incentive for someone who is wealthy to endorse socialism?
I would think that most wealthy people would prefer to keep their money than be forced to spread it around...not to mention, if they earned their money via capitalistic enterprises, why would they want the the benefit of those enterprises taken away?
For example, personally, with the exception of some basic human needs (food, freedom, health care), I don't want to be forced to subsidize anyone else's lifestyle. I'd rather spread my money around as I see fit, as opposed to having the government tell me how to...
Sorry, I don't understand the two basic premises that you need wealth to be a socialist and that wealthy people would generally have a "socialistic outlook"...
Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
I never said any of that. I merely said every socialist I've ever met has been funded by capitalism. Some last more than others but as the largest socialist experiment, the USSR, taught us - it can't go on forever.
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
16y
I was specifically referring to your statement:
"...to build the wealth to afford their socialist outlook."
That sentence says that a socialist outlook is afforded by having some level of wealth. And I generally thought that socialists tended to be those who didn't have any wealth, which was why I was confused.
Perhaps that's not what what you meant...I just didn't know how to interpret that any differently...
Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
16y
This article makes a case for capitalism by building on what seem as facst but actually are beliefs:
" Capitalism has brought longer and healthier lives. We are better educated than ever before and we have more choices."
This is presented as fact, but is it? The US is ranked as one of the lowest in education among the industrial nations, not all of which are considered "capitalist" the way US is.
To Michael Moore's claim that capitalism is evil, the author claims that "Evil is a characteristic of people and their actions, not an economic system"
I would argue that economic systems were created by people for people and run by people therefor it can be evil.
The author continue to say: "The question, then, is whether capitalism does a better job of encouraging ethical behavior than other economic systems. I believe it does"
Whenever one makes a statement which starts or ends with "I believe" there is no longer an argument because belief is personal and not fact-based.
Here is another purl:
"Under capitalism, we pursue our self-interests by providing products and services that benefit others"
I would argue that although in part true, it also promotes the production of products that are exactly the opposite. - Fast food and other empty caloric food, Alcohol, tobacco products and the list go on and on.
here is another quote:
"Self-interests may have motivated the search for profits, but profits themselves make society better off"
Another claim that seems to be "a belief". Profit doesn't make society better off. It makes individuals better off and there is no evidence of direct collation between them
and another one:
"It is no accident that the least capitalist countries tend to be the most corrupt.
I seriously doubt that it is true as a principal. Although the author refers to "the least" capitalist countries, it doesn't mean that the more capitalist the country is, the less corrupted it is.
According to the Transparency International - a non profit organization that measure corruption level internationally, the US is # 20 along Chile and Belgium. The least corrupt countries are the "Socialist" northern European countries.
http://my.ynet.co.il/pic/news/06112006/CPI_2006_Table_Sources.pdf
Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
16y
Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
Some last more than others but as the largest socialist experiment, the USSR, taught us - it can't go on forever.
USSR, was not socialist in the true sense of the word. It was not even communist. It was a distorted form of an idea which I agree could not work. However, with regard to Capitalism, the book of history is still being written...
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
" Capitalism has brought longer and healthier lives. We are better educated than ever before and we have more choices."
This is presented as fact, but is it? The US is ranked as one of the lowest in education among the industrial nations, not all of which are considered "capitalist" the way US is.
By the way...
The number one country in terms of education (based on standardized testing) is Finland, which also ranks as one of the best countries to live.
Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by J Scott:
The number one country in terms of education (based on standardized testing) is Finland, which also ranks as one of the best countries to live.
It must be. They recently lost their status as the top suicide country in the world. Being top 10 now rather than #1 must mean things are so much better.
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
It must be. They recently lost their status as the top suicide country in the world. Being top 10 now rather than #1 must mean things are so much better.
Yes, definitely...
From what I've been able to find, the drop in suicide rate is related to the improved treatment of clinical depression by the Finnish health care system.
The drop has been unbelievably drastic -- down over 40% in 15 years...
In the same period of time, the U.S. suicide rate has only dropped 15%...
Kudos to Finland's health care system...whatever they're doing must be working!
They used 3 US pharmaceutical drugs to drug people up to the point that they were less effective in the act of killing themselves. So they really didn't drop the suicide rate so much as drop the suicide mortality rate by drugging people up to make them less able to kill themselves.
I don't know why you're not packing up and moving your family to such a great country tomorrow. Heck, that's the kind of environment I'd love to have my kids in.
"Though antidepressant medications have been extensively studied, they have not been proven to decrease the risk of suicide."
Sounds like the drugs the U.S. companies made weren't very effective...
I wonder why U.S. drug companies are selling medication to treat a problem when they haven't been proven to successfully treat that problem.
If that's really what's happening, I think we need some major health care reform for U.S. drug companies! They're creating drugs that don't work, and still selling them to us!
Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
How is this a hijack? I was told a socialist country is better than a capitalist one and I simply pointed out that the socialists were busy committing suicide.
Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
How is this a hijack? I was told a socialist country is better than a capitalist one and I simply pointed out that the socialists were busy committing suicide.
This is an important thread...
Tim pointed out that U.S. drug companies were creating and selling drugs that have not even been proven to work! And it's not just effecting our country, but other countries around the world...
Damn greedy drug companies making billions at the expense of American lives...
Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
16y
Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
How is this a hijack? I was told a socialist country is better than a capitalist one and I simply pointed out that the socialists were busy committing suicide.
Right, but then it became an argument about the effectiveness of suicide drugs.
Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
16y
OK, so here is why I have my doubts in Capitalism as a system. The principal here is that on a level playing field, all the players have a fair shot at success. However, over time that playing field stops being leveled. The successful ones accumulate capital and start using their capital blocking new comers. Those "too big to fail" and not so too big to fail can crush the competition like it was nothing.
Ron Paul recently claimed on Larry King that what we have now is not capitalism but Corporatism. I would argue that one derived from the other. Capitalism allowed corporatism to be created.
Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
How is this a hijack? I was told a socialist country is better than a capitalist one and I simply pointed out that the socialists were busy committing suicide.
Right, but then it became an argument about the effectiveness of suicide drugs.
I never argued that. I only pointed out that Finland's fantastic medical victories cited here are only as good as the US drugs they imported to drug up their people. The socialist system didn't do crap for them.
Investor · Mableton, GA · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 465 votes
16y
Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
Originally posted by Tim Wieneke:
How is this a hijack? I was told a socialist country is better than a capitalist one and I simply pointed out that the socialists were busy committing suicide.
Right, but then it became an argument about the effectiveness of suicide drugs.
I never argued that. I only pointed out that Finland's fantastic medical victories cited here are only as good as the US drugs they imported to drug up their people. The socialist system didn't do crap for them.
Tim, have you noticed that US drug manufacturers rarely market curing drugs? Most of the drugs are managed care drugs. Why? Simple capitalism. It is more profitable. Why cure diabetes if we can manage it? Why cure cancer if we can manage it? They produce relief not cure. It's about the bottom line.
Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
Also, if you don't like the Finland example, how about Holland, Denmark, and even, God forbid France...
I don't see anyone here moving there to pursue their dreams. I have seen one person in this discussion come all the way from Israel to the US to pursue his dreams here. I saw another person in this thread stay within the US to continue pursuit of his dreams here.
If countries like Finland are so much better than why immigrate and stay within the US? With a suicide rate that high, I'm sure Finland has the room.
Attorney · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2008 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
16y
Originally posted by Eddie Ziv:
US drug manufacturers rarely market curing drugs?
Separate topic. Here's what was said,
"Kudos to Finland's health care system...whatever they're doing must be working! "
They're drugging up their patients. There's what "must be working".
I'm not going into a discussion on big pharma. I'm merely pointing out that their only solution came in the form of a US created product. A product that you and Jason don't seem to like, but it was their ONLY solution meaning that the socialist system couldn't even deliver what you perceive as a "bad" solution.
Rehabber · Tucson, AZ · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 802 votes
16y
"The US is ranked as one of the lowest in education among the industrial nations, not all of which are considered "capitalist" the way US is."
Liberal BS! This is completely in accurate from many standpoints the first being the US education system ranks very high when compared to countries who provide well-rounded or multi-disciplined educational systems.
We also provide many for-profit educational opportunities giving many people chances to re-educate, retrain, or reinvent themselves.
Lastly, in many third-world and other developing countries, little education is offered and often ar not accounted for in statistics. For instance, in India, china, Pakistan, many south american countries, there will be a maximum of one child born to a family that will be allowed to even seek an education.
Lastly, I have a friend who is a doctor who holds an administrative position with the local college of medicine. And a statistic which is hardly ever discussed is nearly 30% of the student are foreign born. A high percentage of them are from northern european countries.
In talking with many of them, they do not want to return to their countries and often times marry in order to stay here.
In fact, one nurse, whom got pregnant actually returned to finland to have her baby and then returned here and eventually married the father.
The reason is because the government will not only pay for the birth expense but would also pay her for six months to sit on her ***.
If our education system is so lowly, then why are our colleges booming with foreign students?
Reality is, many people in socialist countries dream to be able to have the freedoms we take for granted here.
Many Americans and wannabe socialists idealize these countries when in fact, many citizens in these countries would gladly trade places with them.
I say some of us should set-up a socialist / capitalist foregin exchange website inviting Americans who want government run healtcare, 60% income tax, 17% interest rates, can trade places with budding capitalists in non-capilistic countries.
Government run healthcare is ridiculous... They can't even run the VA medical system, what makes liberals think they can run a health system 100 times larger?