"It's Different this Time!" - Why we can't lose in RE! :)

"It's Different this Time!" - Why we can't lose in RE! :)

J. MartinPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes

This kind of attitude scares the SH*T out of me!!!

“This time is different” are the words scrawled on the wall of every financial bubble - from the South Sea to the DotCom Bust (1.0) to RE Financial Crisis - before it comes crumbling to the ground. The new era of international trade; The new era of a super-productive online world; The new era of RE where prices cannot go down; The human mind is a funny thing!

When have you heard people using this phrase recently? Did it scare the sh*t out of you too?!

This is what another BP'er wrote recently  on a post of mine, where I was questioning whether us first-cycle investors are as smart as we think we are..

“I watched the last disaster unfold. I know lots of people that lost everything. This time is different. Sure, there will be market cycles, but the days of no income and only a pulse required to qualify mortgages are gone.”

DISASTER!

I totally disagree!!! The only thing that is different, is that financial asset bubbles and busts are always a bit different. The money might be coming from a different place. The asset might be in a different form. But common themes are greed, a “can’t lose” attitude, leverage and/or "funny money", and amazingly enough, thinking that we’ll be OK because it’s different this time!

It’s usually coupled with a lot of late-comers piling into the asset after years of sitting on the sidelines missing out, driving it ever higher above its intrinsic value, further increasing the odds and magnitude of a correction when everyone sees how naked the king is..

It doesn't matter if the "funny money" ("hot" money) is coming from loose loans (see Great Recession), an overheated sector (See Tech Bust 1.0), an overheated country (Japan in 90's; see 2-3 lost decades..). Their will always be another bubble filled with risk; it will just look a little different next time. Stay agile ;)

 *I also had a front-row seat to the extreme losses, watching RE borrowers and developers go from 8 & 9-digit net worth to negative in the matter of a couple years*

“An asset bubble is like an orgasm; It feels the best right before it’s over.”

Most recently, here's the questions I've heard answered with "It's different this time."

"Isn't the tech bubble in the San Francisco Bay Area unsustainable? Is it also unsustainably contributing to near-record unaffordability for RE in the Bay Area?" (New York City, Boston, Austin have any similar folks..?)

No stupid! It's different this time! Small tech companies not only have unique visitors, like DotCom 1.0 - but they also have *gasp!* some revenue! (Let's not mention the P(rofit) Word! ;)

"Won't near-record unaffordability levels make it difficult to sustain these prices, or cause a reversion if it continues?"

No stupid! It's different this time! With the hot tech sector, insatiable foreign demand for RE, and the "never-ending" flow of capital into the best place on the world to live, it can go way further! (Never mind the cyclicality of tech & some foreign demand, and the fact that both of these things STILL EXISTED during the last crisis, right?)

"What if interest rates go up?"

No stupid! It's different this time! The era of interest rate cycles is over, and rates won't be above 5% in our lifetime. Just look at the 30yr chart! With a new, smarter Fed that knows how to control inflation, European recession, strong dollar, and cheap oil, how can they go up? (Never mind that they've never been this low before, and historically not anywhere close.)

My question to all of you:

Is it different this time?
What was the last question you heard answered with "It's different this time?"

*The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was to convince the world he didn't exist*

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Investor/Landlord · Farmington Hills, MI · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
11y

Prices always rise--until they don't.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Hampton Roads, VA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 418 votes
    11y

    Hedge fund inventory and reverse mortgages when boomers pass away.  

  • tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 86 posts · 23 votes
    11y

    I think something that's not talked about enough is housing prices compared to inflation and wages. Prices are going up substantially right now in many markets, not pre-crash prices but about 15-20% less, which is probably where they should stay. Home prices are currently rising 13 times wage growth. So either wages have to go up or prices have to come down. Considering wages have stayed around the same in terms of purchasing power since 1979, i tend to side with home prices coming down.The problem is, there is alot of competition for homes in larger metros, artificially driving prices up. So while people are paying 40-50% of their monthly take home pay to afford a home that is not really worth what they paid for it. 

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 201 posts · 95 votes
    11y

    Regarding San Francisco, it's not going anywhere, it's definitely different this time since let's face it - the tech revolution is still only in it's infancy and SF is the Athens of innovation for our time.  Being a 7x7 mile peninsula with difficult building restrictions is going to further drive up demand for the foreseeable future.

    Nationally, it's market by market. The Dallas market is a serious seller's market now while Tampa is a buyer's paradise imo. If you're willing to buy remotely then your pool of deals expands greatly. I still like to look at markets where I have at least a competent cousin or ex-college roommate living there to stop by the property now and again if needed. The real estate technology era where I can use Google Maps, accept online rent payment, get info from Zillow/MLS/Trulia/BP and others all online really open up REI geo range if you have the nerve to do it.

  • Bedford, NH · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Ryder Meehan:

    Regarding San Francisco, it's not going anywhere, it's definitely different this time since let's face it - the tech revolution is still only in it's infancy and SF is the Athens of innovation for our time.  Being a 7x7 mile peninsula with difficult building restrictions is going to further drive up demand for the foreseeable future.

    Jesus. That is actually frightening.

    This, ladies and gentlemen, is how bubbles happen. 

  • Investor · Daphne, AL · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 242 votes
    11y
    Having made one fortune and lost two on real estate, I am with you.
  • Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Ryder Meehan:

    Regarding San Francisco, it's not going anywhere, it's definitely different this time since let's face it - the tech revolution is still only in it's infancy and SF is the Athens of innovation for our time.  Being a 7x7 mile peninsula with difficult building restrictions is going to further drive up demand for the foreseeable future.

    I'm absolutely certain that RE agents were telling their buyers exactly the same thing just before the last bubble burst.  I wonder what the buyers from 2004-2006 think now that they are still underwater (or nearly) after ten years? Presuming of course they were able to hold on and didn't have to sell at a huge loss or have a foreclosure.   

  • Rental Property Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    I dunno about the above 3 responses...San Fran RE was one of the last places to get hit by the recession, fell the least of any major city, and was one of the first to recover back in early 2012. And now, most who brought in 04-06 are significantly above their purchase price. It's like recession?  What recession?

    Of course no one in their right mind expects RE anywhere (inc. SF) to only go up, but the kid isn't that far off in his perspective :)

    As for the general sentiment of this thread, it's easy to get doomy-gloomy as a reaction, and sure, plan for that. But what if we just go sorta sideways for a few years?  I can see SF RE continuing appreciating in the single digits for that timeframe. Remember, it's all relative:  The double digit gains we have had 2012-14 have already given us our reward.  

    Since we can't predict exact market timing, nor the cumulative effects of macro economic impacts, I tend to focus on the micro picture at this stage. For me a new purchase would have to have intrinsic value on the buy side, plus a cashflow plan within a reatively short timeframe. Guess I'd be more cautious if I did flips. 

    I'd also watch leverage. And a potential correction in my local rental market. As long as I'm not over leveraged, and can absorb a 20% rent cut across the board (which would blow royally, but I could suck it up if I had to), then I believe I'll be okay. I'm strengthening my cash reserves, and having a HELOC in my back pocket is extra security. The rub is that HELOC would be my source of cash to buy a new project, which is why I'm on the fence about acquiring a new property (it would have to be a pretty f*cking compelling deal for me to do it!). That's my BOE analysis anyways.

    So how are other SF Bay Arean buy and hold folks securing their potential downside risk?

  • Investor · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2015 · 201 posts · 95 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Cal C.:
    Originally posted by @Ryder Meehan:

    Regarding San Francisco, it's not going anywhere, it's definitely different this time since let's face it - the tech revolution is still only in it's infancy and SF is the Athens of innovation for our time.  Being a 7x7 mile peninsula with difficult building restrictions is going to further drive up demand for the foreseeable future.

    I'm absolutely certain that RE agents were telling their buyers exactly the same thing just before the last bubble burst.  I wonder what the buyers from 2004-2006 think now that they are still underwater (or nearly) after ten years? Presuming of course they were able to hold on and didn't have to sell at a huge loss or have a foreclosure.   

    Not to say bubbles don't ever burst but in SF it's a different animal.  Even if a homeowner had purchased at the peak of the market they would still be looking a $300K+ median increase in less than 10 years.  I guess that realtors were right after all.

    http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/San_Francisco-California/market-trends/

  • Investor · San Jose, CA · Member since 2014 · 167 posts · 146 votes
    11y

    @Amit M.

     I really like reading your insights on investing in SF. So thanks for sharing,

    In regards to what we are doing to help us prevent future downturn is: Have cash reserves. Our plan is long term buy and hold so we hope we can survive some fluctuations due to the cycles by having cash reserves. We really would like to buy one more property but are not pulling the trigger due to the prices. We are also trying to finish rehabbing the our 4 plex over the next few moths and keep increasing rents to get them to market rents (we have rent control so we have to work with in the limits of that)

  • Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Ryder Meehan:
    Originally posted by @Cal C.:
    Originally posted by @Ryder Meehan:

    Regarding San Francisco, it's not going anywhere, it's definitely different this time since let's face it - the tech revolution is still only in it's infancy and SF is the Athens of innovation for our time.  Being a 7x7 mile peninsula with difficult building restrictions is going to further drive up demand for the foreseeable future.

    I'm absolutely certain that RE agents were telling their buyers exactly the same thing just before the last bubble burst.  I wonder what the buyers from 2004-2006 think now that they are still underwater (or nearly) after ten years? Presuming of course they were able to hold on and didn't have to sell at a huge loss or have a foreclosure.   

    Not to say bubbles don't ever burst but in SF it's a different animal.  Even if a homeowner had purchased at the peak of the market they would still be looking a $300K+ median increase in less than 10 years.  I guess that realtors were right after all.

    http://www.trulia.com/real_estate/San_Francisco-Ca...

     Case Shiller still has SF house prices below the last bubble.

    Regardless of which numbers are wrong or right, a lot of people lost their houses to foreclosure, had to sell at a loss, or became accidental landlords because of the last bubble bursting.  Except for some of the accidental landlords who had the ability to keep two houses going for several years, most of those people would probably not think that the realtors were right.  

    I agree SF is a different animal.  I don't think many places in the country saw a 45% drop in home prices in a ten month period as Case Shiller shows happened between May 2008 and March 2009.   

    Another point in all this if in fact, the median price has gone up $300K above the last bubble prices doesn't that cause you a great deal of concern?

    The whole point of this thread is that bubbles happen and speculating that high priced real estate will go even higher is dangerous, unless you have an excellent handle on all the factors affecting a market or you have the wherewithal to ride out a bubble burst for several years.   Yes, there will be a lot of money made before the next bubble bursts, but a lot of those holding the bag will lose significant amounts of money or at the very least will have a significant amount of money tied up in non producing assets. Also, those expecting to ride out a significant downturn in prices, are betting that past is prologue.  Which may or may not be correct. 

  • Bedford, NH · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    People seem to be losing sight of the fact that if housing gets too expensive in a particular place, companies can and will locate elsewhere.

    And, by the way, I was in the actual Athens last October.  Funny how things can change. I can't decide if the more appropriate Springstein song to offer as an antidote to this sort of SF hubris is "Glory Days" or "My Hometown."

    The SF Bay area has good fundamentals, and will probably continue to see appreciation.  But the notion that it is fundamentally "Different, just because it is!!!!"  is insane.  

  • Investor · Lake, FL · Member since 2015 · 121 posts · 28 votes
    11y

    0% interest rates can only end badly.  However, this will be the greatest asset bubble, possibly ever.  I am out of pretty much everything by 2022-2024.  See my Blogs.

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2012 · 408 posts · 37 votes
    11y

    Add 7 years to each bar to figure out future demand. We'll be rising easy through 2019 as foreclosed buyers enter the market.

  • Herndon, VA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 324 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Ben Bakhshi:

    Add 7 years to each bar to figure out future demand. We'll be rising easy through 2019 as foreclosed buyers enter the market.

     It isn't quite that easy because otherwise strong borrowers are already getting loans.  Also a fair portion of foreclosures are from people in a situation where they should have remained renters, so they wouldn't be expected to appreciable add to home ownership in the future.

  • Bedford, NH · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    One way in which the Athens of our time (what is the word for a form of hubris so egregious that hubris no longer suffices?) may, by it's own innovations, ultimately bring down real estate values (or at least retard their growth.)

    http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_te...

  • tampa, FL · Member since 2014 · 86 posts · 23 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Richard C.:

    One way in which the Athens of our time (what is the word for a form of hubris so egregious that hubris no longer suffices?) may, by it's own innovations, ultimately bring down real estate values (or at least retard their growth.)

    http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_te...

     This is a great article and may be something that happens in 30 years but i just dont think the infrastructure is there for this to happen anytime soon. There would have to be so many changes as far as city codes, police, roads, consumer buy in, etc. This may happen in a very progressive city like san fran or austin but i cant see it happening across the US. For instance in florida, they've been working on a section of I275 in north tampa for 10 plus years and are still having trouble building it. It was supposed to be done years ago. Its not cold here, so no snow or weather issues, no one could tell you why its taking so long. 

    Besides that, millenials dont want the long commute they've seen their parents do day after day, i know i dont and im 26. You can find plenty of articles on this topic. Most millenials want to live downtown and be able to walk to bars, restaurants, sporting events, etc. If this does tend to be the case, this only drives up property values further. 

  • Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    Is investing in top quality locations a hedge? Recent history including GFC indicates this alone could be your best precautionary measure. I know of some areas that went down almost zero during GFC. Like Amit indicates quality locations are going to be more of a predictor of long term outcomes than anything else. Even in down markets many of the highest quality locations can still fetch top dollar. I predict your future REI success level will be fundamentally based on your location selection. Supply and demand fundamentals will remain your best investor friend or foe. From what I can tell very little can be done to increase SF supply geographically speaking. Very little can be done to decrease demand in those same locations. Many of the most seasoned investors might call that a perfect REI storm. ( see first UCLA forecast video)

  • Bulawayo, Zimbabwe · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 253 votes
    11y

    Markets are cyclical so agility and flexibility are important.We learn there is greed and fear which plague markets so stick to your numbers(1% rule,50% rule etc)

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