Are You Depressed?
Rental Property Investor · Phoenix/Lima, Arizona/OH · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
Real Estate is so freaking boring… and yet that’s all we talk about. Why – is it because this is all we are interested in?
How about the meaning of life – would you engage in a conversation about the meaning of life? How about depression – would you talk about that? I know many of you, if not most, are affected. How about fear of failure? How about any Damn thing that really matters in life – children, illness, the future of civilization, future of America, the wars we fight, the wars we don’t fight?
Are we so shallow that real estate is the only thing that matters to us?
Don’t tell me you’re not scared – I know many of you are...
Let’s talk about things that matter for once.
Any takers?
I'm certainly no hater but I'm kind of confused by BP. How does a post on a Real Estate 'forum' asking about collaborating on a real estate deal get taken down, but this dribble is allowed to stay up?.
I'm certainly not going on model train club websites and saying "All we do is talk about trains!"
It's like you wandered into the wrong conversation and cover it up by trying to sound deep and philosophical.
I get what your 'trying' to stimulate, but maybe that last MD can prescribe something...
@Ben Leybovich I think this is a great topic to talk about. It seems this thread spans both sides of the scale. I for one deal with extreme highs and lows with emotion and find that RE and REI are a calming factor, due to the fact that you almost forcibly have to remove emotion from the decision process. I get very excited when I think I have found THE deal only to end up paddling a boat down the river of disappointment and tears(or stress sweat) when the deal evaporates or ends up being nothing more than "smoke and mirrors".
To expand on life's larger issues...well again without oversharing my opinion; I see this world is turning out to be a large pit of snakes willing to bite each other just to get a little closer to the top. There are great people out there no doubt (Read:awesome BP community) but there is a vast majority of people who are incredibly self-serving. In South Florida they are arresting anyone for feeding homeless people. Crazy right? We as Americans should understand that we grow and gain together. I would love to succeed in a larger market such as Miami but without BP I would not see it happening. Unless I had huge portfolio and cash coming out of my ears.
Again, I thank you for this thread! It allows us to talk about what makes us "us". Further strengthening the framework for outstanding partnerships. Cheers
What makes us "us", makes us interesting. Void of that which is "us", all of this is just boring nonsense.
Jerhmey - about newbies. There is a world of difference between he who is a RE newbie, and he who is a newbie human being. Progress happens by looking backwards, not straight ahead. You, on a very human level, understand this, which makes you interesting and easy and rewording to give to. But, not everyone has that imagery in the rear veiw mirror. @Bill Gulley and I can cure RE stupid, but we cannot cure life stupid - time is the only thing that cures that :)
being an effective student of life and not being reactive and being reflective,
being grateful instead of being angry,
having a planning attitude versus throwing darts
Suffering today instead of splurging for today
Being coachable instead of an arrogant know it all
The game of life
How are those two boys doing? 👨👩👦👦
being an effective student of life and not being reactive and being reflective,
being grateful instead of being angry,
having a planning attitude versus throwing darts
Suffering today instead of splurging for today
Being coachable instead of an arrogant know it all
The game of life
How are those two boys doing? 👨👩👦👦
We're kicking it in the teeth, my friend. Wax on - Wax off...Every single day!
Thanks for asking. And you?
very grateful in the land of $900,000 modest single-family homes
I'm coaching younger boys lacrosse this year from ages 9 to 11, actually more fun than the 15-year-olds, A lot more enthusiasm a lot less complaining:)
I think the most important thing is to take the freedom that real estate investing can give you, and to use that time and money to do the things you truly want, such as traveling, spending more time with family or doing hobbies. That's certainly a happier life than slaving away 60 hours a week in a cube and being stuck in the rat race for 40 years until you die.
Exactly......to be at home/on call when all 3 kids went through school & to be able to just hang out with aging parents was the best reward REI has ever given US!!
Folks come back from Afghanistan without limbs having fought in a war a lot of them did not believe in, but the oil industry made out pretty well. Autism is an epidemic, and yet we vaccinate children into oblivion without a thought for testing for predisposition - can you say pharma? Diabetes and cancer is everywhere. Genetic modification of that which is supposed to be our food is now the norm - any surprise everyone is sick...?!
Okay, I have to step in here. Please go read the science on Autism and Vaccines. There is NO LINK. There was one study that showed a link that has long been discredited. Also GM food is not all bad. Would you rather use a ton of pesticide or use pest resistant seeds? I get angry with anti-science statements. On the Afghanistan point, mostly agree but its more the Arms Dealers getting rich than the oil companies on that one..but point is the same! Diabetes..yes, food industry wins, pharma industry wins, people lose. Cancer? A lot of increased cancer is probably because better diagnosis and longer life spans. Not convinced its increasing in any absolute sense.
Folks come back from Afghanistan without limbs having fought in a war a lot of them did not believe in, but the oil industry made out pretty well. Autism is an epidemic, and yet we vaccinate children into oblivion without a thought for testing for predisposition - can you say pharma? Diabetes and cancer is everywhere. Genetic modification of that which is supposed to be our food is now the norm - any surprise everyone is sick...?!
Okay, I have to step in here. Please go read the science on Autism and Vaccines. There is NO LINK. There was one study that showed a link that has long been discredited. Also GM food is not all bad. Would you rather use a ton of pesticide or use pest resistant seeds? I get angry with anti-science statements. On the Afghanistan point, mostly agree but its more the Arms Dealers getting rich than the oil companies on that one..but point is the same! Diabetes..yes, food industry wins, pharma industry wins, people lose. Cancer? A lot of increased cancer is probably because better diagnosis and longer life spans. Not convinced its increasing in any absolute sense.
We'll agree to disagree, Anish. Our experiences are differing. My personal experiences with healing my child tell me to look at who paid for the studies :)
This is not the best forum for a discussion on autism diagnosis and healing. I'll go ahead and drink un-homogenized and un-pasteurized milk from a local herd, and you will likely continue to buy yours at the store in a plastic jug. Different folks different strokes. Time will tell who's right...
@Ben Leybovich Agree this is not the forum to debate this point. Then again this whole thread is so off topic anyway! Your drinking milk from whatever source doesnt affect my life and my kids. Resurgence of measles and whooping cough and other communicable diseases DOES affect mine and others kids. And that is why I think its important to understand the science. Anecdotal evidence is not research. And there is a wide body of public health research that has studied the vaccination issues. I am no fan of big Pharma, believe me. I do understand they are amoral in their pursuit of profit. They manufacture illnesses, they pathologize normal life and are generally not to be fully trusted. But, vaccines are a different story where the benefits are very clear, not just to individuals but to society as a whole. BTW I dont drink milk at all :-)
@Ben Leybovich Agree this is not the forum to debate this point. Then again this whole thread is so off topic anyway! Your drinking milk from whatever source doesnt affect my life and my kids. Resurgence of measles and whooping cough and other communicable diseases DOES affect mine and others kids. And that is why I think its important to understand the science. Anecdotal evidence is not research. And there is a wide body of public health research that has studied the vaccination issues. I am no fan of big Pharma, believe me. I do understand they are amoral in their pursuit of profit. They manufacture illnesses, they pathologize normal life and are generally not to be fully trusted. But, vaccines are a different story where the benefits are very clear, not just to individuals but to society as a whole. BTW I dont drink milk at all :-)
So we agree, then. Vaccines don't cause autism; but they can, in the rught set of circumstances serve as triggers. All I, and others like me, want is either institutionalized genetic testing to out-rule predisposals such as MTHFR gene mutations, or choice not to subject my kids. Funny thing is - medical professionals is waking up - be it slowly, but better later than never. Pharma is still not. They could be making so much money with genetic testing prior to vaccination.
Anish - nobody believes vaccines are bad for all. Only that they are bad for some. For example, my doctors won't let me vaccinate. Why - MS diagnosis. People with auto-immune conditions are advised not to vaccinate, since this can trigger issues - the same types of issues that are on the autism spectrum. And yet, we make no effort to test children for these autoimmune condition factors.
So - you have a right to protect your kids. Why not protect all kids? Anyhow - we won't agree, and that's fine. I see my truth, and you see yours...
Pleasure
Have to work on getting over my fear.. negation skills.. and confidence, being that I don't have a bunch of money and strong credit.
for what it's worth, this was my first thought seeing the this thread.
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/08/16/what-it-feels-like-to-become-rich/
for what it's worth, this was my first thought seeing the this thread.
That's about the size of it... so are you saying that I'm bored?
It makes us feel a certain way having figured some things out. Good article - thanks for sharing, Mark.
for what it's worth, this was my first thought seeing the this thread.
That's about the size of it... so are you saying that I'm bored?
It makes us feel a certain way having figured some things out. Good article - thanks for sharing, Mark.
You're welcome Ben. I haven't read all the posts in this thread but my impression of you from your podcast was that you were extremely intelligent, deep, and successful in real estate investing. Such people tend to get bored with success:)
for what it's worth, this was my first thought seeing the this thread.
That's about the size of it... so are you saying that I'm bored?
It makes us feel a certain way having figured some things out. Good article - thanks for sharing, Mark.
You're welcome Ben. I haven't read all the posts in this thread but my impression of you from your podcast was that you were extremely intelligent, deep, and successful in real estate investing. Such people tend to get bored with success:)
I'm not bored, per se. I think I have figures out some things. I think I am giving additional momentum to a ball that's already rolling in the right direction, which is always easier than starting from scratch. But, I certainly have room within my consciousness to ponder things which transend the basics...hence the thread :)
The article is correct. As we become better at being good, the process of doing it becomes less exciting...
I think most people need goals. Usually money becomes that goal for a lot of people. Until you have enough. Then getting more doesnt seem like a worthwhile goal anymore. Hence the boredom. Trick is to find other goals. Bill Gates is an awesome example of this. But there are many millionaires who want to become deca millionaires who want to become centa millionaires who want to become billionaires who want to be on the top of Forbes list etc etc. I dont believe most of those individuals are as satisfied or happy as someone who decides they have enough money (whatever enough means to you) and goes pursues other things and passions.
The Rat Race is depressing to me. Life sucking. I had been taught that not wanting to be a part of the rat race made me "lazy." Over many years and after some reading I have realized it's not me that is the problem, it's the system that has been developed. Most people seem to tolerate it OK, though they aren't fulfilled by it. That's not the case with me. I'm so glad I found the outlet of real estate that gives me the hope that one day I will be able to manage properties myself and make a living doing it, rather than spend the vast majority of my waking hours slaving away to the extent that any extra effort or work I do improves someone else's life and/or bottom line at the expense of not getting to see my family enough and risk getting fired or laid off if I get the flu two times in a year instead of once.
One thing that really has made things difficult, though more fulfilling, is educating myself. I began learning about the true history of my country, the history of our education system, the fact that the Federal Reserve is a huge scam, and what fractal banking is truly all about. Also, reaching a point where I realized the economic principals our country was founded on are being abandoned and the education system has been turned into an indoctrination factory.
These are the things that concern me, and yet I find that an overwhelming amount of the people I'm surrounded by don't really care. If you try to talk to them their eyes glaze over until you talk about the latest sports event, movie or what boundary-pushing event some whore-some entertainer did last week. It seems that as long as people are able to go out to eat on the weekends, watch movies, watch sports and have some type of hobby on the side, they could care less about what gears are turning that will guide our, and our children's, future.
When I was searching these forum posts, I never expected to get into all of that. Thanks
@Ben Leybovich, that was actually nice to "say" out loud for a change.
The Rat Race is depressing to me. Life sucking. I had been taught that not wanting to be a part of the rat race made me "lazy." Over many years and after some reading I have realized it's not me that is the problem, it's the system that has been developed. Most people seem to tolerate it OK, though they aren't fulfilled by it. That's not the case with me. I'm so glad I found the outlet of real estate that gives me the hope that one day I will be able to manage properties myself and make a living doing it.
One thing that really has made things difficult, though more fulfilling, is educating myself. I began learning about the true history of the country, the history of our education system, the fact that the Federal Reserve is a huge scam, and what fractal banking is truly all about. Also, reaching a point where I realized the economic principals our country was founded on are being abandoned and the education system has been turned into an indoctrination factory.
These are the things that concern me, and yet I find that an overwhelming amount of the people I'm surrounded by don't really care. If you try to talk to them their eyes glaze over until you talk about the latest sports event, movie or what boundary-pushing even the last whore-some entertainer did last week. It seems that as long as people are able to go out to eat on the weekends, watch movies, watch sports and have some type of hobby on the side, they could care less about what gears are turning that will guide our, and our children's future.
When I was searching these forum posts, I never expected to get into all of that. Thanks @Ben Leybovich, that was actually nice to "say" out loud for a change.
You are welcome, Brandon. A couple of things to understand here...
You are innately aware that there is a "system" at play, and that most people are sleep-walking within that system. Understand - American government, in the fractional reserve fiat system you talked about, runs on debt. Debt is paid with taxes - where are those tax revenues coming from? The W2 earners. Rich guys don't pay taxes.
Therefore, it is indeed in someone's best interest that you, a guy trying to escape the system which involves you slaving away for a W2 pay check, are ridiculed by friends and family. In other words, the genius of the system is that it makes them believe that the system is the honest and moral way...
This is a blog post coming!
I will bite because I actually am interested to know if others feel this way. Im petrified when i have to commit 100% on a deal. The final day of my get out of jail free inspection period is the most stressful day ever, on every deal. I probably experience every feeling in that day and i change my mind 100 times on if I'm doing the deal or not. Every thought on what could go wrong and blow the numbers up goes through my mind. A friend had to "text" me off the ledge on the last deal and i am glad he did because it has been my best one so far. All the numbers made sense but there's always some weird problem with every house that I'm not sure how to handle.
Being an engineer and investor i hate risk and i hate unknowns. Nasty thing, unknowns. Ive lost a lot of money in the stock market and when you get punched in the gut like that, it really makes you self doubt.
I'm naturally a little neurotic but since real estate is very emotional it just fuels the fire.
I worry about everything, every detail. If i have another investor counting on me it stresses me out even more because i want to do the very best i can for them and they are trusting me to keep them out of trouble. I enjoy having the answer for people.
Im scared to death to borrow money from others. It's one thing if something happened and i lost my own money, but its another to lose someone else's money. I literally couldn't sleep if i lost someone money. I know real estate is an other peoples money game but it just scares me.
I feel like even though its clear as day at times that im doing things right, i feel like everybody else is doing better than me or has it better than me. And some days i get depressed and just want to quit, for no good reason either I have everything i want other than that elusive million dollars, yet i still feel that way. Its crazy. Like, if i am not investing at all to make money, im stressed im not making money or trying. If i were to spend it on a vacation or nice car, id be pissed i no longer had the money.The goal is to live without money as a stressor, but how the hell that happens i don't know. I don't like the way money makes me feel if thar makes any sense, or dollars
I feel like if i sat down with a therapist i would depress the therapist lol. I tend to look at situations like "how can i get F'd" and typically pay no attention to the good side. It takes people reminding me of the good side to remember it. That's pretty much engineering though, always focused on problems. I also tend to do that for clients because i want to protect them and i want to feel very good about helping another succeed.
If only i could turn my mind off sometimes.
I know Ben said he is not depressed, but sounds to me like he's got him a case of them 1% blues ... wrote a song 'bout it, like to hear it, here it go! ... :-)
Seriously, though, my theory is that he (and many others, including me) are bored because there just aren't as many deals to be found that make any sense, due mostly to a flood of newbies into the market irrationally driving up prices trying to turn a quick buck buying something for $1 and turning around to sell it for $1.50 having never got their hands dirty or adding any intrinsic value to the property or any other parties involved. Nothing against newbies, just against the concept of trying to profit without any real work or value added. Value added is both societal value and monetary value ... these two concepts are one in the same for a sustainable business and life; it is possible to decouple the two in the short-term, but this will always be short lived and usually ends catastrophically when the universe reunites the two ...
I agree that investing, any business, and life for that matter needs to be informed by a deeper philosophy and purpose that goes beyond just chasing greenbacks. It is this purpose that gets you through the bad times and makes you appreciate the good times.
Kudos to the Mr. Money Mustache link earlier ... his philosophy is spot on IMO ... another article that expresses a similar philosophy and its application to investing is:
http://www.valuewalk.com/2015/11/leithner-letter-t...
You'll need to download the pdf to read the full letter.
-Cheers!
@David Roberts - you are what one of my bankers refers to as "investor with a conscience". Nothing wrong with that!
@Ben Leybovich I think this is a great topic to talk about. It seems this thread spans both sides of the scale. I for one deal with extreme highs and lows with emotion and find that RE and REI are a calming factor, due to the fact that you almost forcibly have to remove emotion from the decision process. I get very excited when I think I have found THE deal only to end up paddling a boat down the river of disappointment and tears(or stress sweat) when the deal evaporates or ends up being nothing more than "smoke and mirrors".
To expand on life's larger issues...well again without oversharing my opinion; I see this world is turning out to be a large pit of snakes willing to bite each other just to get a little closer to the top. There are great people out there no doubt (Read:awesome BP community) but there is a vast majority of people who are incredibly self-serving. In South Florida they are arresting anyone for feeding homeless people. Crazy right? We as Americans should understand that we grow and gain together. I would love to succeed in a larger market such as Miami but without BP I would not see it happening. Unless I had huge portfolio and cash coming out of my ears.
Again, I thank you for this thread! It allows us to talk about what makes us "us". Further strengthening the framework for outstanding partnerships. Cheers
What makes us "us", makes us interesting. Void of that which is "us", all of this is just boring nonsense.
Jerhmey - about newbies. There is a world of difference between he who is a RE newbie, and he who is a newbie human being. Progress happens by looking backwards, not straight ahead. You, on a very human level, understand this, which makes you interesting and easy and rewording to give to. But, not everyone has that imagery in the rear veiw mirror. @Bill Gulley and I can cure RE stupid, but we cannot cure life stupid - time is the only thing that cures that :)
LOL, no Ben, maturity can not be taught quickly. There has to be some history to look back upon to learn on a personal basis. But when someone lacking wisdom and maturity cannot or will not listen to a wiser person, that is being naive, ignorant or stupidity. Simple people have simple minds, simple ways and simple lives, they will always be with us. If someone can't recognize opportunity they can never take advantage of it.
The problem too for the immature is understanding who has wisdom to follow. The basis for any con job is to first to convince the mark that the con is telling them the truth, building trust to entice the mark to act. People can be naive at any age, especially about things they don't understand.
Jerhmey, instead of referring to others as snakes, I the analogy of wolves or wild dogs in a pack. Each fends for themselves first, then they act in concert taking down the weaker prey. Most humans have evolved from this behavior acting within the norms of society. You'll find that the less educated, less successful, less self-esteem one has the greater the tendency to revert back to survival instincts to prey on others.
If one lacks an education, an understanding of legal, ethical and social expectations dealing in an industry, the can only resort to predatory thinking. They are not capable of knowing how to, say, pay a higher price and still make a successful transaction, their only strategy then is how do I get a lower price, the more absurd the offer, the better in their mind. Prisons are full of smart people.
Real estate is fertile grounds for can artists. No law can be made requiring all sales go through a broker, this then gives average folks the right to transact their own business in a high dollar item. When you have average folks who have little experience in a high dollar asset that is easily transferred, you will have the con artists, gurus and wolves. There will be those ready to take advantage of buyers and sellers and those wanting to get into real estate to make money.
IMO, money doesn't indicate knowledge, wisdom, any ethical or legal compliance or the willingness to deal fairly and honestly. That's because money can be gained by cheating or being predatory or acting illegally. What did Joe Kennedy do? Ran an illegal liquor trade. IMO, it took a President to wipe that family tarnish off. No history lessons, but there is never a good reason to do the wrong thing.
I have money, it came honestly, I worked hard educating myself, listened to good mentors and sorted out the bad ones, I built a really good BS meter. I also worked years without a real vacation and that drive, determination, education and business ethic paid huge dividends allowing me to retire at around 52, and I got bored! Money doesn't buy self esteem, pride, love or friendship, it may make it easier to enjoy those aspects but it really doesn't buy them.
Low self esteem can drive a sociopath, while they may brag and boast, every time they open their mouth it's about their success, appearing to be arrogant and successful they are probably pretty empty inside.
You can only buy so many toys, play snobbery games with other well off folks or volunteer your time. Traveling is a pain today, a hassle, I'd rather be around family and friends. I'd rather provide opportunities than make more money.
At the end, it's not your net worth but your self worth that matters, it's all about the legacy of your life. :)
Some of you guys are pretty deep. That's good stuff
@Ben Leybovich I think this is a great topic to talk about. It seems this thread spans both sides of the scale. I for one deal with extreme highs and lows with emotion and find that RE and REI are a calming factor, due to the fact that you almost forcibly have to remove emotion from the decision process. I get very excited when I think I have found THE deal only to end up paddling a boat down the river of disappointment and tears(or stress sweat) when the deal evaporates or ends up being nothing more than "smoke and mirrors".
To expand on life's larger issues...well again without oversharing my opinion; I see this world is turning out to be a large pit of snakes willing to bite each other just to get a little closer to the top. There are great people out there no doubt (Read:awesome BP community) but there is a vast majority of people who are incredibly self-serving. In South Florida they are arresting anyone for feeding homeless people. Crazy right? We as Americans should understand that we grow and gain together. I would love to succeed in a larger market such as Miami but without BP I would not see it happening. Unless I had huge portfolio and cash coming out of my ears.
Again, I thank you for this thread! It allows us to talk about what makes us "us". Further strengthening the framework for outstanding partnerships. Cheers
What makes us "us", makes us interesting. Void of that which is "us", all of this is just boring nonsense.
Jerhmey - about newbies. There is a world of difference between he who is a RE newbie, and he who is a newbie human being. Progress happens by looking backwards, not straight ahead. You, on a very human level, understand this, which makes you interesting and easy and rewording to give to. But, not everyone has that imagery in the rear veiw mirror. @Bill Gulley and I can cure RE stupid, but we cannot cure life stupid - time is the only thing that cures that :)
LOL, no Ben, maturity can not be taught quickly. There has to be some history to look back upon to learn on a personal basis. But when someone lacking wisdom and maturity cannot or will not listen to a wiser person, that is being naive, ignorant or stupidity. Simple people have simple minds, simple ways and simple lives, they will always be with us. If someone can't recognize opportunity they can never take advantage of it.
The problem too for the immature is understanding who has wisdom to follow. The basis for any con job is to first to convince the mark that the con is telling them the truth, building trust to entice the mark to act. People can be naive at any age, especially about things they don't understand.
Jerhmey, instead of referring to others as snakes, I the analogy of wolves or wild dogs in a pack. Each fends for themselves first, then they act in concert taking down the weaker prey. Most humans have evolved from this behavior acting within the norms of society. You'll find that the less educated, less successful, less self-esteem one has the greater the tendency to revert back to survival instincts to prey on others.
If one lacks an education, an understanding of legal, ethical and social expectations dealing in an industry, the can only resort to predatory thinking. They are not capable of knowing how to, say, pay a higher price and still make a successful transaction, their only strategy then is how do I get a lower price, the more absurd the offer, the better in their mind. Prisons are full of smart people.
Real estate is fertile grounds for can artists. No law can be made requiring all sales go through a broker, this then gives average folks the right to transact their own business in a high dollar item. When you have average folks who have little experience in a high dollar asset that is easily transferred, you will have the con artists, gurus and wolves. There will be those ready to take advantage of buyers and sellers and those wanting to get into real estate to make money.
IMO, money doesn't indicate knowledge, wisdom, any ethical or legal compliance or the willingness to deal fairly and honestly. That's because money can be gained by cheating or being predatory or acting illegally. What did Joe Kennedy do? Ran an illegal liquor trade. IMO, it took a President to wipe that family tarnish off. No history lessons, but there is never a good reason to do the wrong thing.
I have money, it came honestly, I worked hard educating myself, listened to good mentors and sorted out the bad ones, I built a really good BS meter. I also worked years without a real vacation and that drive, determination, education and business ethic paid huge dividends allowing me to retire at around 52, and I got bored! Money doesn't buy self esteem, pride, love or friendship, it may make it easier to enjoy those aspects but it really doesn't buy them.
Low self esteem can drive a sociopath, while they may brag and boast, every time they open their mouth it's about their success, appearing to be arrogant and successful they are probably pretty empty inside.
You can only buy so many toys, play snobbery games with other well off folks or volunteer your time. Traveling is a pain today, a hassle, I'd rather be around family and friends. I'd rather provide opportunities than make more money.
At the end, it's not your net worth but your self worth that matters, it's all about the legacy of your life. :)
Very well said. Except, I have to take issue with the statement about traveling. When has traveling ever been less of a pain (and cheaper) than today? Also, you can travel and be around family and friends, sometimes concurrently. :)
Not when family is in their mid 80's, when I say travel, I don't mean to another state or going to the lakes, I mean overseas. Been there, done that LOL. Doesn't matter how cheap travel is, when you get older, you'll understand :)
@Andrey
@Andrey Y.undefined