Be Careful of Dead Equity!!

Be Careful of Dead Equity!!

Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

What prevents us all from becoming super wealthy?  Plain and simple it is the return you get from your net worth.  So, for an experiment take your net worth.  That means, if you were to sell everything today and paid off all your loans etc...  What would you be left with?

A few years ago I figured out that if I were to do this, I would have about $2,500,000.00 in Equity or Net Worth.  I thought that was something else at 49 years old.  Then I calculated my ROE or Return On Equity.  I figured out that our passive income from all this RE was at $72,000 a year.  To figure out my ROE, I took that passive income and divided it by my $2,500,000 in equity or Net Worth.  Guess what?  It wasn't very impressive.  My Return on Equity or my return on Net Worth was almost 3%.

Wow!! That was a real eye opener.  That was pathetic.  What that told me was that I had too much dead equity sitting in pricey California single family rental properties.  So, what I did was learned and read and learned and read and attended seminars etc...  What I learned was people with dead equity and were successful RE investors took that equity and did one of 2 things.  The first was they refinanced that equity out (tax free) or the route I took, which was the incredible tool called the 1031 exchange.  

All I did was started to trade this pricey San Diego Re in for undervalue apartment complexes in Ohio.  Right now our passive income has risen to $120,000.00 a year and our ROE is now up to about 5%.  Again, this is tax deferred and the Net Worth is still the same.  The difference was, increasing the front doors from 12 to 78.  That is including 2 personal residences that don't give us any passive income.  Those personal residences have loans and take money out of our pocket each month.

Remember, If you keep the proper leveraged debt 30-50% on each property you keep a level of safety and ROE. Let me know what your ROE is currently and what you plan to do about it.

Happy and prosperous New Year to all here at BP!!!

Swanny

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Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
9y

My opinion has always been that equity in a property is a liability not a asset. The most troubling issue I have with novice/inexperienced investors is they have absolutely no concept of the value of cash, the opportunity value to generate more cash.

Novice investors state that paying down a mortgage increases cash flow, they keep their rents below market, they do not apply annual rent increases. They do not understand that all of those things depreciate a investment. They have no concept that  when a property appreciates their returns are dwindling away. Clearly no concept of the value of cash. These I refer to as hobby investors, regardless of their net worth, as they never see beyond the money coming in.

The biggest hurdle novice investors face is looking beyond the money they are making. They never see the money they are not making. By doing that most overlook the unlimited amount of income they do not even know they are losing. That's right, it is not that they are not making it they are actually losing it and 9 times out of 10 it is because they have no concept of the value of cash. Having equity in a property is reducing cash flow and throwing income away. Appreciation is a double edged sword that money hoarders never benefit from.

Investors holding dead equity are looking at a diminishing dream. A someday thing. Thanks but no thanks I'll take the cash, every dime I can generate, before I die.

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  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    9y

    Congrats on your balance sheet, passive income, 1031 execution and out of state investing...well done.

    You will want to include predictable rent and market value appreciation in your calculation of ROE to have an apples-to-apples comparison among investment alternatives.  Cash flow is only one piece of the equation.  I am not advocating for or against cash flow vs appreciation...just getting into the math.

    Nice work...modeling ROE is a great discipline (along with IRR through the exit of each property). It's easy to get complacent and not subject existing properties in the portfolio to the same criteria as new acquisitions.

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y

    1031s are great. 

    If the tenants aren't a pain and you'd just as soon keep the properties instead of trading them up, it's also nice that Fannie no longer caps you at four financed properties if you want to pull that equity out but retain ownership. Now, the cap is up to 10 and still able to pull equity out. That change was less than a year ago. Surprisingly, I haven't done a lot of those. I think everyone sees 4 or 6 on Google and just gives up.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Thank you @Mike Dymski,

    Our plan is to increase NOI and either refi or 1031 exchange defer, defer, defer, defer, and Die!! Ultimate goal would be about $1,000,000.00 per year passive income and about 15-20 Million in Net Worth at my demise.

    When I read Grant Cardone's 10X Rule, I realized I was setting my sights too low.  I started investing in 2011 and after 5 short years look how far I have come and how far I still have to go!!

    Swanny

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Hi @Chris Mason,

    What is great is that most of my investment apartment complexes and single family are in Ohio and I just manage the property manager.  Don't get me wrong, it is NOT all hats and horns.  However, we can see the forest through the trees.  This is not instance gratification, something for nothing, diseased way of thinking.

    Swanny

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    Jason Hartman is a refi to you die disciple  LOL

    I like the liquidity if needed of West Coast assets..

  • Portland, ME · Member since 2012 · 616 posts · 550 votes
    9y

    This is so true.  I know a lot of very conservative landlords who own several properties free and clear yet struggle.  

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Hi @Jay Hinrichs,

    You are soooooooo right!!  I still have about $750,000 equity in San Diego.  Although, it is making me a little nervous right now at these inflated values and the habits of lenders to give loans to some buyers with low 600's credit scores, low money in the bank etc...  I have lived in San Diego since 1978 and have seen this rerun quite a few times so far.  My little 3/1 house being valued at about $500,000 and then correction back down to $260,000.00. Right now I have a loan for $330,000 on that personal residence.  That is about $170,000 in equity and another personal Residence with $500,000 equity and one rental 2br/1bath at about $150,000 equity.  Of course the ROE is practically non-existent on this San Diego RE.

    Swanny

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Hi @Amy A.,

    If you don't use proper leverage, you can't pay the bills with dead equity. Kind of like when people talk about how much money they have in their 401k or IRA. You don't really have anything until you sell. Then the tax consequences are huge. I know. I had to sell a few properties straight sale and some stocks and IRA's too. What the statements say you have is really not the money you have. I like being able to use the money now or add money to my RE savings account to buy more or reposition the RE I have to earn more passive income. I don't want to wait till some imaginary time in the future. Do you?

    Swanny

  • Peter TverdovBusiness Member
    Developer · New Brunswick, NJ · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Nice topic. I think it's a bit tricky to just compare your NOI vs Net Worth because other assets should be part of your equation that aren't passive (car value, personal residence, jewelry, boat, plane, etc). Your real estate investment net worth divided by passive income is a more accurate measure IMO.

    I enjoy tracking this stuff though and have both a net worth spreadsheet and a risk spreadsheet that tracks my portfolio's cash profit, LTV and risk if rents should drop. I think it makes a person more cognizant of what their balance sheet looks like, helps one set out goals and helps you know just how much money you have tied up. Personally, our net worth this year went up 50% and I'm anticipating a 40-50% increase next year too. I wouldn't be aware of that 2 years ago. Makes you hungry to grow and make your money work for you.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Hi @Peter Tverdov

    Good points you make.  If you have extremely extensive net worth in depreciating assets like cars, boats, personal residence, jewelry, plane etc...  That could be significant.  Hopefully, you achieved those depreciating liabilities with passive cash flow from ypur RE.

    Great Job!!  I hope to be able to buy those luxuries and depreciating liabilities in the near future.

    Swanny

  • Chris MasonPro Member
    Moderator
    Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Michael Swan:

    Hi @Peter Tverdov

    Good points you make.  If you have extremely extensive net worth in depreciating assets like cars, boats, personal residence, jewelry, plane etc...  That could be significant.  Hopefully, you achieved those depreciating liabilities with passive cash flow from ypur RE.

    Great Job!!  I hope to be able to buy those luxuries and depreciating liabilities in the near future.

    Swanny

     I like the cut o your jib, good sir.

    A landlord once sent a tenant my way who had expressed interest in buying the place he was renting. Landlord drives up in a 20 year old Toyota pickup that I'd seen before - if he's visiting my office, he's checking in on some rental units while he is at it and wants his tools handy. Tenant drives up in a sexy drop top BMW that couldn't have been more than a year old. The sunglasses he was wearing, alone, must have been at least $150. I was waiting for the action move intro music to start. I will never forget that fellow.

    At the end of the day, however, guess who was still a tenant?

    DTI over 50% after subtracting rent but before adding the mortgage, application denied, no your ex's food stamps / EBT card do not count as mortgage qualifying income for you, but yes your child support payments count as a liability even if "she never reports me when I don't pay." 

    I have nothing against fancy depreciating assets if one's income can sustainability back up one's flash and pizzazz, but come on dude (directed at that guy, not anyone here).... the kid comes first. And stop mooching off of the woman that gave you a child, let her and that kid keep the food stamps!

  • Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    I think it depends on where you are in your financial life. If you want to live off the cash flow, your argument is correct. If you want to build wealth, you are better off keeping your appreciating assets. Im in a similar boat with a ton of equity in Bay Area properties. But while ROE based on cash flow is low, ROI is actually great due to appreciation. While I am working and not using the cash flow, I prefer to build equity. Sometime down the road maybe I will have to convert that equity into higher cash flow. But that will be the end game. Right now, Im okay building equity. And as Jay says, the liquidity of west coast property is huge. You cant sell your Ohio apartments in a hurry or without seller finance etc.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Hi @Chris Mason,

    It is true I have always lived well below my means.  As I said to Peter above, hope to have some of those nice things in the near future, paid for by my passive cash flow.  I see your point too.  That flash (depreciating asset), can't be purchased on time or with a loan of its own.  With the passive cash flow that I have my sights on, those things could be purchased or rented fairly easy in the near future.  I am not interested in fancy things.  

    Although, I am interested in more time to travel and see the world and live a little as soon as my son graduates college in the spring of 2019. That College bill will no longer exist.  I may stop my second job teaching night school at a community college fall 2017 and keep my daytime teaching job until 2019 or 2020.  I will be 56 years old then.

    That's what passive cash flow really brings, more time and freedom to do what you want and when you want to do it.

    Swanny

  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    9y

    Agree with @Account Closed . I am fond of saying leaving equity sitting in homes is like having employees sitting around, not doing any work. That said, the opposite of dead equity is 100% leverage, which is a dangerous place to be sitting without massive cash reserves. My personal preference is about 50/50, although in reality we sit at around 20-25% (I lean towards the financially conservative side of things). That allows some properties to maintain all their equity as a partial hedge against economic difficulties, while allowing others to help grow the business along with income generation. Also, the overall trend of the specific market needs to be considered. A property that will generate cash flow may stall or deflate when it comes to appreciation, and it could be a coup in a low-interest environment to harvest that equity at a high point and utilize those funds to expand your portfolio. 

    Skyline Properties
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  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Hi @Account Closed,

    That's where you are misinformed. My lender says that each dollar I increase the NOI on my Apartment complex it is then worth $10.00 more. So, as I am in the process of doing right now, one of my apartment complexes I have owned for 16 months and I have increased the NOI by about $10,000.00 so far. In one year time from now I expected to have increased the NOI of that complex by $15,000. That means in about 24 months after purchasing the 15 unit apartment complex it will be worth $150,000 more than I paid. Just think about the fact I only put $144,000 down at a purchase price of $592,500 originally in Sept of 2015. So in Spring of 2018 I could refinance and take out all the initial seed money or 1031 exchange into a 1.2 million property. True Multifamily (5 units or more) are valued by NOI, not comps. Don't confuse Multifamily with single family Anish.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Hi @Jd 

    @JD Martin

    See My reply to Anish above.  I agree that we want enough leveraged debt to take advantage of Leverage and to write of the interest on our debt too.  But, we don't want too much debt.  I have 5.5 mil in property value and 2 million in debt on that RE.

    Swanny

  • Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    I think it depends on where you are in your financial life. If you want to live off the cash flow, your argument is correct. If you want to build wealth, you are better off keeping your appreciating assets. Im in a similar boat with a ton of equity in Bay Area properties. But while ROE based on cash flow is low, ROI is actually great due to appreciation. While I am working and not using the cash flow, I prefer to build equity. Sometime down the road maybe I will have to convert that equity into higher cash flow. But that will be the end game. Right now, Im okay building equity. And as Jay says, the liquidity of west coast property is huge. You cant sell your Ohio apartments in a hurry or without seller finance etc.

     This is one thing that worries me about selling my fancy houses in Seattle and exchanging them for apartments is the fact I'd be losing this fantastic appreciation. Alas, I will have to do it eventually as you say. I want to preserve my capital from residential real estate cycles at some point.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Hi @Account Closed

    When you think about me paying only $34,000 on a down payment for that little single family I purchased in 2012 and cleared $144,000 three years later 1031 Exchanged for that 15 unit complex in Ohio.  The total return is amazing, not to mention the tax deferred cash flow we have received along the way and not paying any taxes upon the sale.  Just keep deferring, including the percentage of debt and use all the tax advantages afforded to us her in the wonderful United States of America.

    Swanny

  • JD MartinBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Michael Swan:

    Hi @Jd 

    @JD Martin

    See My reply to Anish above.  I agree that we want enough leveraged debt to take advantage of Leverage and to write of the interest on our debt too.  But, we don't want too much debt.  I have 5.5 mil in property value and 2 million in debt on that RE.

    Swanny

     That sounds reasonable to me. Higher than what we run as a percentage but not the 80%+ I sometimes see floating around here.

    Skyline Properties
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  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    Hi @Jack B.

    You could do a mixture of Refinance tax free and 1031 exchange other and keep a few in Seattle like I did here in San Diego.

    Swanny

  • Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Michael Swan:

    Hi @Jack B.

    You could do a mixture of Refinance tax free and 1031 exchange other and keep a few in Seattle like I did here in San Diego.

    Swanny

     So funny you mention that. I've been considering doing just that as I don't want to have all my assets in RE. Right now I'm about 17% cash 5% stock, with the rest tied up in RE. I have enough equity to buy a large complex, but I want to keep maybe 500K from a cash out refi long before an exchange. I can use the money to spruce up the houses a bit too. Perhaps keep my favorite one as well. Exchange to a different type of rental. Eventually when prices dip again I will deploy that 500K into highly leveraged houses in Seattle again, maybe more, riding another wave of equity up. 

    It really is true about equity. Out of the 200K a year I make from my small portfolio of houses here, 75% of it is from appreciation while the rest is from principal pay down and cash flow. Gotta love it. Make good money while you sleep. And I've only been doing this a few years, adding a property every 2 years or so. It's been incredible in just a short period of time even while slowly adding to the portfolio. Can't wait to see it really snowball now that it's in place.

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Jack B.

    It sounds like it should be interesting for us the next few years.  Make it happen Jack!!

  • Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2016 · 50 posts · 22 votes
    9y

    @Michael Swan 

    @Jack B.

    Interesting thread... I am in Seattle and just bought my first out-of-state property (a 4-plex) in Indiana. Also cashing out on "dead equity" by selling couple Seattle condos and will 1031 exchange for multi family or apartment complex in Indiana.

    Not completely out of the Seattle market.  The appreciation in Seattle is great - but I'm shifting gear and going for cash flow from the Midwest properties with part of the RE portfolio. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Amy Greger:

    @Michael Swan 

    @Jack B.

    Interesting thread... I am in Seattle and just bought my first out-of-state property (a 4-plex) in Indiana. Also cashing out on "dead equity" by selling couple Seattle condos and will 1031 exchange for multi family or apartment complex in Indiana.

    Not completely out of the Seattle market.  The appreciation in Seattle is great - but I'm shifting gear and going for cash flow from the Midwest properties with part of the RE portfolio. 

    Any particular reason why trading for cash flow? Also, what is your projected total ROI on the new vs. old properties?

  • Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2016 · 50 posts · 22 votes
    9y

    @Jack B.

    The 3 properties we're selling we've owned for 8-9 years. I wanted to cash in on the appreciation, and the Seattle market is getting too expensive for new investment properties. For the Midwest properties, they are over 10% CAP and cash on cash ROI between 15-26%.

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