EPA lead requirements running amuck

Rehabbing & House Flipping
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EPA lead requirements running amuck

Tim Lee
Real Estate Investor · Kingsport, TN · Member since 2008 · 10 posts · 1 vote

I recently completed the EPA Certified Renovator Training. Today, I received the Email below. Now, the EPA is not satisfied with the certified renovator. They now want to add another layer of inspection ($$$, delays, red tape, etc.) Here is your chance to voice your concern. Please pass on to all investors/sub-contractors you know.

Dear Concerned Members of the Renovation Community,

CONNOR has just recently released another communication, so please be aware that we appreciate your patience and attention in receiving this one. However, we believe you will agree with our assessment of the urgent nature of its content, given the deadline for EPA’s acceptance of your feedback.

On May 6, 2010, the EPA proposed several significant changes to the Renovation, Repair and Painting Rule. The EPA is requesting public comment on the proposed changes, and these comments must be received by the EPA on or before July 6, 2010.

This is your opportunity to voice your concerns regarding the additional costs and complexities that the changes will bring to your renovation projects. By providing feedback to the EPA, you can help ensure that the viewpoint of the Renovation Community is taken into account as the EPA decides what changes to enact. Do not allow outside interests to direct your work practices.

There are two major areas that the proposed changes will affect:
1.The EPA is proposing to require Dust Wipe Testing after many renovations.
2.The EPA is proposing a Renovation, Repair, and Painting Program for Public and Commercial Buildings.

Under the first proposal, the EPA would require Dust Wipe Testing in a variety of circumstances, including:
1.Use of a heat gun below 1100° F
2.Removal or Replacement of Window or Door Frames
3.Scraping of 60ft2 or more of painted surface
4.Removal of more than 40ft2 of Trim, Molding, Cabinets or other Fixtures
5.Use of Machines designed to remove paint through high speed operations
6.The Demolition or Removal, through destructive means, of more than 6ft2 of plaster and lath building components

Cleaning Verification would still be required. However, upon successful completion of the Verification Procedure, a Certified Lead Inspector, Certified Lead Risk Assessor, or a Dust Sampling Technician would have to complete a Dust Test Wiping.

Please see the Federal Register/Vol. 75, No 87/ Thursday, May 6, 2010/ Proposed Rules page 25038 for further information on this first proposal.

Under the second Proposal, the EPA is asking for comment on the Development of a Renovation, Repair, and Painting Rule to apply to:
1.Exteriors of Public and Commercial buildings
2.If lead-based paint hazards are determined to exist, Interiors of Public and Commercial buildings

Please see the Federal Register/Vol. 75, No 87/ Thursday, May 6, 2010/ Proposed Rules page 24848 for further information on this second proposal

Comments must be submitted by one of the following three ways:
1.Online at the Federal eRulemaking Portal: http://www.regulations.gov
2.Mail: Document Control Office (7407), Office of Pollution Prevention and Toxics (OPPT), Environmental Protection Agency, 1200 Pennsylvania Ave, NW, Washington DC 20460-0001
3.Hand Delivery: OPPT Document Control Office (DCO), EPA East Building, Rm 6428, 1201 Constitution Ave, NW, Washington, DC; Attention _____________ (appropriate Docket Number)

Please ensure that you annotate the appropriate docket number for the proposals on which you are commenting:
1.Dust Wipe Tests— EPA-HQ-OPPT-2005-0049
2.RRP for Public and Commercial Buildings— EPA-HQ-OPPT-2010-0173

For your convenience, EPA’s Renovate Right pamphlets may be obtained from EPARenovateRightPamphlets.com
Additionally, EPA Certified Renovator (RRP) course offerings are available at EPACertifiedRenovatorClasses.com

Thank you,
Rob Dowse
[email protected]
CONNOR Institute

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Bill Gulley
Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
16y

So, let me get this straight, if a place was built in 1977 and it has panneling on the wall and the dog scratches the molding and I wnt to replace the molding, I need to hire a contractor certied by the EPA to take samples and pay for tests to identify lead contamination, then after I pay say $250.00, I get to have them out and test the area again for another $250 (that's $100.00 for each test and the guy doing the assessment). So, if I replace $20.00 worth of trim, it could really cost me $520.00?

Instead of making a comment, I have several pounds of lead in my home that I would like to deposit with the EPA and lawmakers, right where they sit down!

Let's see, a car maker can build a car that blows up or won't stop and they are allowed to continue building them because the human loss estimated is accepted based on the economic benefits, but the potential of having air borne lead particles from less than a two inch area around a door frame is a greater threat to public safety and is more economically feasible to contain? Maybe its because the economic loss suffered is by those have no voice and that it produces another source of fee income to government agencies....hmmmm?

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  • Bienes Raices
    Orlando, FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 282 votes
    16y

    Thanks for posting this. I was just going to start a thread about this new law when I saw your post.

    I know the law has only been in effect for a month, but if anyone could post about their experiences in complying with the law (like higher costs from contractors, etc.) it would be interesting to read. Most of the good deals in my area are built before 1978.

    0Reply
  • Fred Grant
    Investor · Woonsocket, RI · Member since 2008 · 46 posts · 24 votes
    16y

    It is not just EPA.

    I finished the Certified Renovator training today and Rhode Island has already mandated that dust wipe testing must be done (by a Lead Tech / Inspector) at the end of all projects regardless of work methods used. The EPA approved visual inspection process for Certified Renovators will not be accepted. However if I drive 10 minutes to Massachusetts I will be allowed to use the EPA process for any jobs in that state. Having to do dust wipes everytime is going to add $100+ to each project depending on the number of samples.

    In addition, Rhode Island has mandated that Certified Renovators cannot perform pre-renovation testing using the EPA approved kits. Only dust wipe testing performed by Lead Techs / Inspectors will be accepted. So the choice is pay $150 for pre testing or assume LBP is present and follow the new working processes for all jobs.

    So even if the EPA doesn't change its guidelines you could find your state doing it anyway. During the class today it was mentioned that 8 states already have some variations on the EPA guidelines.

    1Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    16y

    So, let me get this straight, if a place was built in 1977 and it has panneling on the wall and the dog scratches the molding and I wnt to replace the molding, I need to hire a contractor certied by the EPA to take samples and pay for tests to identify lead contamination, then after I pay say $250.00, I get to have them out and test the area again for another $250 (that's $100.00 for each test and the guy doing the assessment). So, if I replace $20.00 worth of trim, it could really cost me $520.00?

    Instead of making a comment, I have several pounds of lead in my home that I would like to deposit with the EPA and lawmakers, right where they sit down!

    Let's see, a car maker can build a car that blows up or won't stop and they are allowed to continue building them because the human loss estimated is accepted based on the economic benefits, but the potential of having air borne lead particles from less than a two inch area around a door frame is a greater threat to public safety and is more economically feasible to contain? Maybe its because the economic loss suffered is by those have no voice and that it produces another source of fee income to government agencies....hmmmm?

    2Reply
  • Bienes Raices
    Orlando, FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 282 votes
    16y

    It seems to me like you would just make lower offers on pre-1978 houses, to make up for the immediate rehab costs. But the problem is what if the house needs additional work of that type ten years from now? How do you quantify that or allow for it in your offers?

    1Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    16y

    Who is going to buy a pre 78 home, even if it was a gut rehab? If their dog chews up a door frame it could cost them more than $500.00 to fix it themselves! Who wants that? That will always effect the property value. You might buy it for less, but you get to sell it for less too! Bill

    0Reply
  • Chris Reilly
    Investor · Senoia, GA · Member since 2009 · 11 posts · 1 vote
    16y

    To 'FinanceExaminer': The new EPA rules do not apply to owner occupants. Their dog chews up a door frame, they can fix it all day long without any issues.

    0Reply
  • Mark W.
    Investor · Rochester, NY · Member since 2009 · 91 posts · 59 votes
    16y

    And what if the apartment is empty at the time of rehab? Does one need to go through all of this rigamarole if nobody is actively living in the apartment?

    0Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Chris Reilly:
    To 'FinanceExaminer': The new EPA rules do not apply to owner occupants. Their dog chews up a door frame, they can fix it all day long without any issues.


    Thanks, this is not a topic I have studied in depth but I remember reading that, thanks for the correction, but what about a second home? I remember sying in another post I'd move in to make the repairs (LOL). I can see where pet deposits will be going up now.
    0Reply
  • Tim Lee
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Kingsport, TN · Member since 2008 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    16y

    To Chris: I 'think' the owner occupant portion was rescinded effective July 6 (see copy of email from Connor below). That was going to be my 'out' as a rehabber. Not so, according to the instructor. Please correct if I mis-interpreted. Also, How do we get this info to the other forums on BP? The best defense is to bombard EPA with complaints. A; I believe that this was begun back during the first Bush's admin and B, typical of any regulatory agency, they are inept at notifying/educating about upcoming reg's and then expect everyone to comply. I first started hearing about this about 4 months ago, found few sources that knew anything about it and even fewer certification training sources. If you're going to do this, educate and transition please!

    Dear Certified Renovators and Interested Parties,

    On May 6, 2010, the EPA published changes to the requirements presented during the EPA Certified Renovator (RRP) course. The changes go into effect on July 6, 2010, and Certified Renovators will then need to comply with the new requirements in 40 CFR 745 (the original regulations are found in Appendix A in the CONNOR Course Manual). You may download a copy of the Federal Register in which the changes were published by clicking HERE. Additionally here is a brief summary of the changes that directly impact Certified Renovators:

    The “opt-out†clause (page 2-5 in your course manual) has been eliminated. Owners can no longer (July 6, 2010) sign a statement allowing Renovators to perform renovations in the owner’s pre-1978 residence without following lead safe work practices.

    The Renovation Firm must now provide a copy of all of the required records to the owner of the residence, as well as notifying the affected units/parents/guardians of where they can obtain a copy of the required records at no cost to the affected units/parents/guardians. Copies of these records must be provided within 30 days of completing the renovation or issuing the final invoice.

    The EPA clarified which reports you can accept to determine a property is lead free.

    The EPA extended the expiration date of Certified Renovators who took the course prior to April 22, 2010. If you took your course before April 22, 2010, your certificate is now good until July 1, 2015.

    As always you should verify this information by personally reviewing the attached documentation. The changes are listed on pages: 24818 and 24819.

    As requested EPA’s Renovate Right pamphlets can be obtained at EPARenovateRightPamphlets.com

    Additional EPA Certified Renovator (RRP) course offerings are available at EPACertifiedRenovatorClasses.com

    0Reply
  • Fred Grant
    Investor · Woonsocket, RI · Member since 2008 · 46 posts · 24 votes
    16y

    Firstly, the comments I made are specific to Rhode Island as that is where I got certified so if you are in Rhode Island you can either pay to have a lead check done or you can assume Lead is present. If you pay the $150 or so and no lead is present (in the areas you will be renovating) then you do not need to follow Lead Safe Practices. If lead is present then you have to follow the codes. You could skip the $150 in testing and simply assume Lead is there.

    In MA and CT which are my 2 closest states, you are allowed to follow the new EPA rules which allow Certified Renovators to use the $4 test sticks that you can buy at Lowes and Home Depot; so yes, it sucks to be in RI.

    After the work is complete, MA and CT allow visual inspection after cleanup has been performed, again done by the Certified Renovator. In RI, the rules have been made stricter and only lab tested dust wipes collected by Lead Techs or Inspector are approved to show the job site is clear. Visual inspection only cost the price for the materials, lab testing is going to be over $100 so again; sucks to be in RI.

    Secondly, there are obviously lots of other parts to the new regs around how much space will be disturbed, who will be living in the house, etc but the key fact is that this applies to "compensated" firms and individuals and under EPA rules landlords doing there own renovations are compensated individuals as they receive rent so they have to follow the EPA practices and be certified. If you are working on your own house then you do not have to follow the EPA guidelines although it is recommended, esp if you have children.

    I will leave it up the lawyers out there to discuss:

    "what if my brother-in-law does the work an doesn't get paid and therefore isn't "compensated""

    "What if I sell it before renting it"

    "What if I was going to live in the house myself but changed my mind after the work was done"

    "Are flippers considered compensated"

    Fred

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Landlord · Seattle, WA · Member since 2010 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    16y

    I just met with the maintenance manager at a local housing authority. The housing authority is actually is being required to pay $500/unit to have an apartment complex built in 1982 to be inspected for lead.

    It appears that you may not want to assume that just because it was built after 1978 that you are in the clear.

    0Reply
  • Bill Gulley
    Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    16y

    Hi Charles, I'm a fish out of water here, need to study this, but I'm familiar with PHAs. I know larger PHAs buy paint for example in quanity and store it to be used as needed. It could be that it was painted with paint they purchased that could not be shown as being lead free, so to error on the side of caution, they have it inspected. Another aspect is that HUD could have simply said all PHAs will be inspected since some will allow tenants to paint a wall, some don't. Comparing how the government treats their properties may not translate to private property, hope not. Bill

    0Reply
  • Tim Lee
    OP
    Real Estate Investor · Kingsport, TN · Member since 2008 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    16y

    Bill, Good point. Our instructor pointed this out. When the word came down that lead based paint was to be nixed, many painting contractors, large and small, industrial/commercial/PHA's stocked up on the paint because it was so durable. The key to all of this string is to TRY to get EPA's attention. That only will happen if we load up the comments board identified in my first entry. Go to "http://www.regulations.gov"; click on the tab near the top labeled "submit a comment"; in the drop down window for "select document type' click on 'proposed rules', and then enter the rule no. 'EPA-HQ-OPPT-2005-0049'.

    0Reply
  • Bill Patterson
    Real Estate Investor · Portage, MI · Member since 2010 · 470 posts · 315 votes
    16y

    As a member of NAHB, I have been involved in several other forum discussions regarding this issue. You will also need to check with your insurance carrier, since coverage for this will need to be through another policy. Price quotes vary greatly. Also, the possibility of "savvy" home owners suing contractors for not following RRP guidelines for renovation or record keeping has been pointed out. I wouldn't stretch my imagination very far to see this extending to sellers (investors), too.

    0Reply
  • Bienes Raices
    Orlando, FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 282 votes
    16y

    I called EPA to get more information. As I was talking to them it occurred to me that since they'll be testing for lead, you'll be forced to disclose to the buyer when you sell eventually that it has lead. I don't know what effect that will have--maybe everyone just assumes that there's lead in pre-1978 houses anyway?

    0Reply
  • Bienes Raices
    Orlando, FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 282 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Financexaminer:
    Who is going to buy a pre 78 home, even if it was a gut rehab? If their dog chews up a door frame it could cost them more than $500.00 to fix it themselves! Who wants that? That will always effect the property value. You might buy it for less, but you get to sell it for less too! Bill


    Bill, the area has to be at least six square feet "disturbed" before you're required to do those special procedures.
    0Reply
  • Bienes Raices
    Orlando, FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 282 votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Fred G:
    Firstly, the comments I made are specific to Rhode Island as that is where I got certified so if you are in Rhode Island you can either pay to have a lead check done or you can assume Lead is present. If you pay the $150 or so and no lead is present (in the areas you will be renovating) then you do not need to follow Lead Safe Practices.

    I called EPA and they said that's the rule nationwide.

    I'm wondering if it would make any sense to pay extra to have this lead test done during the inspection period before buying, and then try to get the seller to lower their price if lead is found? And then if it's not found you're home free.

    0Reply
  • Fred Grant
    Investor · Woonsocket, RI · Member since 2008 · 46 posts · 24 votes
    16y

    Making dust wiping nationwide is still under review (until mid July I think).

    If you are only looking to buy a property and want a quick evaluation for yourself then you could use the test sticks from Lowes or Home Depot. That would let you test a few doors or windows for $2 - $4 per test. If they read positive then you have lead. If they read negative then you don't have lead in the areas you tested but you could have it elsewhere .

    So you will never be able to prove the house has no lead but you might be able to show it has some and get a reduction.

    However, to do the test you need to cut through the layers of paint so you are "damaging" the property which might be a problem for your realtor or the listing agent. Then again, if you leave the tell tale cuts in the paint and red marks on the windows showing lead is present that might be enough to discourage other buyers.

    Doing dust wipes instead would be less destructive but would cost more. So you will have to weigh the pros and cons.

    2Reply
  • Ingrid Nagy
    Property Manager · Passaic, NJ · Member since 2008 · 369 posts · 83 votes
    16y

    Dust wipe test kits come with 5 samples in it-sufficient to qualify for one dwelling. It cost me $50 and I purchased them from Lew Corporation in NJ. Lew Corporation teaches this course on a daily basis in NJ-so many that they are booked thru the Fall of 2010.

    I don't know if the testing methods differ by State or if they are Federally mandated. I had a State inspection last year doing repairs, dust wipe samples, etc. Although PHA units, the PHA did not get involved. The details of my experience and the regulations I encountered are listed under another forum "lead paint" if you are interested.

    1Reply
  • Tom C
    Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 86 votes
    16y

    Tell me.. As a buy, rehab and hold for rental investor, I always practice that when our dwelling inspector comes in and asks about improvements, our answers are simple. We cleaned up, painted and waxed the floors. Nothing was done that would have required a permit. Anything new in the house, must have been done by the previous owner. So, if that's all we did, then there is no need for lead testing, correct? Of course this doesn't work for flippers, but it could for landlords and all of our tenants get the lead paint handbook and sign off on it.

    0Reply
  • Ingrid Nagy
    Property Manager · Passaic, NJ · Member since 2008 · 369 posts · 83 votes
    16y

    It probably flies for single family dwellings. In our State multi-families require "green card" inspections every five years. Thus, the State enforces the lead paint law in their five year inspections so we have no way out of it.

    0Reply
  • Bill Patterson
    Real Estate Investor · Portage, MI · Member since 2010 · 470 posts · 315 votes
    16y

    Tom, I would be very careful. Besides not being totally honest if you do in fact do any renovations, repairs or painting covered by EPA's RRP regs, if the EPA gets their act together and levies any of the huge fines that they can impose, that's a lot of $$$ out the window! Also, any landlord would be crazy to cheat on this one! There will be attorneys lining up to help tenants with lawsuits against landlords if their kids test for any lead content. Home buyers will also be able to request documentation that shows that the RRP regs were followed for any renovations including painting that were done after April 22, 2010.

    I've taken the certification and have decided that my construction company will no longer do remodel work on pre-1978 homes.

    The era if the "ambulance chaser" is past.......now they are chasing lead paint!

    0Reply
  • Tom C
    Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 86 votes
    16y

    Bill,

    As far as being totally honest. My city requires a permit to replace a toilet. Do you really think anyone is going to pay $25 bucks for a permit to replace a toilet? Also, I was always under the impression, that if you paint over wood work, it sealed any lead paint that maybe present. Is this not the case now?

    0Reply
  • Bill Patterson
    Real Estate Investor · Portage, MI · Member since 2010 · 470 posts · 315 votes
    16y

    Tom, I understand the toilet / permit issue. As a contractor I don't agree with not permitting remodeling & additions, since I have lost work to non- licensed or insured, so called contractors. It is the lead paint thing that I am talking about. It adds a whole new layer of liability. Sure, when you paint an old wood window it seals the old lead based paint. But....didn't you scrape it before painting? Was there "lead based paint dust" in the jambs? How do you protect the rest of the house from contamination? I didn't make the rules, but I will give anyone that asks my advice on how this may affect them and their business. I hope I don't offend with my thoughts.
    Thanks,
    Bill

    0Reply
  • Tom C
    Real Estate Investor · OH · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 86 votes
    16y

    Not at all Bill.. That's why I am asking. Scraping, nope. It's a rental house or apartment, not a condo or a $1200 a month rental. We go in and paint if necessary, clean and make them safe, clean and livable. We don't go in and start remodeling the place. If the trim needs new paint, you clean it off and paint it. I can imagine that your business is going to take one hell of a hit if you refuse to do any construction on homes older then 1978.

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