Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
I'm still undecided about bamboo engineered floors or unfinished oak for an install I have coming up. Is one better than the other when installing over concrete?
What's customary for install over concrete? Is it adhesive? Can you float the flooring over concrete?
Jon K. I loved the bamboo flooring pictures from your big rental house. I can get that product here in So Cal. What was it installed over in that house?
Real Estate Investor · Lagrange, GA · Member since 2012 · 18 posts · 6 votes
14y
What is customary depends on your application and personal taste. You can install any type of hardwood over concrete that you can install on wood; however, nail down hardwood requires that you attach a nailing surface to the concrete which increases your cost. Additionally, nail down hardwood floors are more expensive than glue down or laminate flooring. Furthermore, sand and finish (unfinished) hardwoods are the most expensive subset of nail down.
Economically speaking you really only have two choices. Glue down engineered boards, or laminate flooring. The latter is more durable and installed in as a floating floor. Generally a moisture barrier is laid on top of the slab and the laminate boards interlock together on top of the barrier. Glue down engineered flooring looks more like traditional hardwood flooring imo, but will not handle the abuse laminate flooring will. Also, if your slab is uneven or the floors are installed improperly (using cheap glue is a major no no) then glue down floors will eventually loosen from the slab and will cause a popping sound when people walk across them. This is not particularly cheap to fix, and nearly impossible to match the existing boards especially in areas that receive a lot of sunlight.
Cliffnotes tldr; laminate for buy and hold, glue down for resale imo.
Real Estate Investor · Lagrange, GA · Member since 2012 · 18 posts · 6 votes
14y
What is customary depends on your application and personal taste. You can install any type of hardwood over concrete that you can install on wood; however, nail down hardwood requires that you attach a nailing surface to the concrete which increases your cost. Additionally, nail down hardwood floors are more expensive than glue down or laminate flooring. Furthermore, sand and finish (unfinished) hardwoods are the most expensive subset of nail down.
Economically speaking you really only have two choices. Glue down engineered boards, or laminate flooring. The latter is more durable and installed in as a floating floor. Generally a moisture barrier is laid on top of the slab and the laminate boards interlock together on top of the barrier. Glue down engineered flooring looks more like traditional hardwood flooring imo, but will not handle the abuse laminate flooring will. Also, if your slab is uneven or the floors are installed improperly (using cheap glue is a major no no) then glue down floors will eventually loosen from the slab and will cause a popping sound when people walk across them. This is not particularly cheap to fix, and nearly impossible to match the existing boards especially in areas that receive a lot of sunlight.
Cliffnotes tldr; laminate for buy and hold, glue down for resale imo.
Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2012 · 131 posts · 83 votes
14y
I'd go with the unfinished oak. 1) You get to pick the stain color and the finish, 2) down the road you can always have them re-sanded and stained to look new 3) much more durable.
Engineered flooring looks good but it's not that durable. They scratch easily.. and yes even the expensive ones. I've seen it a million times. Real oak flooring is still the best. I've installed both in homes and but would never put engineered in mine... And especially never in a rental. You can glue them both over a slab.
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
14y
Jon K. Thanks for the your reply. After doing some research it looks like some of the newer bamboo flooring has harder finishes than when bamboo first came on the scene in the late 1990s. (Or at least that's when I first noticed it here in So Cal.)
Has your bamboo install been lived on/used yet? The house looks like it was built or modified to be used as a place of worship? To me, a floor that does well with heavy foot traffic outside of regular family use would be a great testimonial. Did you use it in the kitchen area as well?
Gabe Larkin Thanks for your thoughts. For me, engineered wood or bamboo flooring + adhesive is as far as I'm willing to go in the synthetic floor dept. for this project. Laminates are out of the question for me. Tile is VERY popular in all living areas in entry level homes where I am. I just don't like it as it's cold and I find the grid of the grout lines unpleasant to look at. This install is for re-sale of a $120K house. Virtually anything that's not carpet in the main living area (entry/living/dining/hall) will be considered an upgrade by buyers. I'm banking on better and more durable finishes on the engineered flooring now available.
Residential Landlord · Chicago, IL · Member since 2012 · 356 posts · 81 votes
14y
Originally posted by Watson Smith:
I'd go with the unfinished oak. 1) You get to pick the stain color and the finish, 2) down the road you can always have them re-sanded and stained to look new 3) much more durable.
Engineered flooring looks good but it's not that durable. They scratch easily.. and yes even the expensive ones. I've seen it a million times. Real oak flooring is still the best. I've installed both in homes and but would never put engineered in mine... And especially never in a rental. You can glue them both over a slab.
Just to clarify, in your opinion for a concrete sub-floor you would still do oak? If so, how do you deal with differences between height of existing tile at the transition.
Also, what do you do to prep the concrete prior to the oak and is there any other intermediary?
This home was built to use the second floor as a church, but never was. It's still plywood subfloor now, but the tenant is deciding what he wants to do there. They are just moving in now.
Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2012 · 131 posts · 83 votes
14y
Originally posted by Dave Meyer:
Originally posted by Watson Smith:
I'd go with the unfinished oak. 1) You get to pick the stain color and the finish, 2) down the road you can always have them re-sanded and stained to look new 3) much more durable.
Engineered flooring looks good but it's not that durable. They scratch easily.. and yes even the expensive ones. I've seen it a million times. Real oak flooring is still the best. I've installed both in homes and but would never put engineered in mine... And especially never in a rental. You can glue them both over a slab.
Just to clarify, in your opinion for a concrete sub-floor you would still do oak? If so, how do you deal with differences between height of existing tile at the transition.
Also, what do you do to prep the concrete prior to the oak and is there any other intermediary?
I'd do oak on any floor. To match the height of existing tile you can just buy transition pieces from where ever you get your flooring. They have them in many sizes and heights.
To prep the concrete you can use acid to etch it if its too smooth. If the surface is a little rough then you don't have to do that. You want the glue to have something to grab on too and that's hard to do with a smooth surface. Also get some self leveling concrete to level out any dips. If you have humps you have to chip them down.
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
14y
Everything I've read so far about using adhesives to glue hardwoods directly to the concrete is giving me pause. If I use low cost unfinished hardwoods, I know there's going to be a lot of unusable product....lots of warps and imperfect pieces. I think you need perfectly clean and straight boards for a glue install, even more so then when attaching to a wooden subfloor? It seems that engineered flooring would go in better and warp less.
Maybe better to consider tile (porcelain, ceramic, stone) or vinyl products. Vinyl plank might suit your purpose. There is a porcelain with a wood-grain look to it. Google for "porcelain tile with wood grain-look":
Real Estate Investor · Lake Forest, IL · Member since 2012 · 10 posts · 3 votes
14y
If the coldness does not bother you, I would go with a ceramic tile for durability and ease of installation. You can get decent quality tiles for about a dollar/sq foot and will last you at least 25 years or more without service. You won't need backer boards to install over concrete (providing the surface is relatively level), so all you need is thinset and you are good to go at about $1.20 per sq feet in material cost.
You can also get very nice travertine tile from Home Depot for about $1.66 per sq ft. and a small radiance heating system will take the chill out of the flooring. Of course, I'm assuming that you have some cheap (yourself) labor to go with the install.
If you want just cheap and easy, go with floating laminates. Looks great, tough to wear, but you gotta watch the moisture levels. If you are in like Nevada, don't worry about it, but I'd be careful installing that stuff over concrete in Florida. Get a nice vapor barrier, or better yet, seal the concrete before you do the install. Will save your floor in the long run and time and $$ too.
With solid hardwood and bamboo flooring, you will need a nailing substrate. That usually means OSB or plywood. I'd recommend OSB for cleats nailing b/c they are cheaper and since you will get a thicker board for the nails anyhow, it would negate the fact that OSB does not hold nails as well at the same board thickness.
Engineered hardwood and engineered bamboo are more dimensionally stable than solid hardwood, especially when exposed to moisture. Some engineered products can be floated or glued down, so that would probably be your best bet without sinking down another $18 per 32 feet in OSB boards.
Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
14y
did not read the entire thread, but i dont know why people are telling you to be careful installing it over concrete.
they do this all the time in basements. Steve, you are in PA. dont you have basements there? we have basements and there is a "subgrade" flooring everywhere in the stores.
just tell them what the application is and they will tell you which one can be used.
2 ways i'd go though:
1. vinyl that looks and feels like wood (would fake almost anyone)
2. you can put tyvek house wrap underneath and no moisture will ever hit the wood.
Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
14y
K. Marie Poe - I ws going to suggest real hardwood with a plywood layer beneath for leveling and to allow for nail down until i saw your exit value. There is no question in my mind that in that exit price, real wood flooring would be overkill.
I too agree that you should not place hardwood directly over concrete, as your only option is adhesive. I just did a real hardwood floor and layed a subsurface down out of plywood, came out great and although the costs were higher, it was a $1.2M exit value. For $150k, engineered flooring would be considered higher end in my opinion.
May I ask why you just don't put down some nice lush (and warm) carpet?
Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
14y
This is probably impractical and would make some challenging transitions in your particular house: My house built in 1953 has a slab foundation, 2x4 wood screeds anchored to the slab and 3/4 oak attached to the screeds. Even in the 50's they knew better than to put wood down on concrete. The moisture from the slab will mess it up. Engineered wood over some padding is typical.
Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
14y
Originally posted by Dave Meyer:
Brian Hoyt please define screed for those of us unaware...thank you!
First let me retract, my screeds are 1x4, not 2x4.
A screed (in this application) is a 1X4 laid down on the slab onto which you can attached flooring - tongue and groove, plywood, etc. It essential creates the connection for flooring or subflooring on a slab the same way the top of a joist does on a pier and beam framed floor. They don't use this method of construction today, but it was common in my area in the 50's. The locals call it a "screeded wood floor".
Now they put down plywood (instead of spaced out 1x4's) and nail to hard wood to that or place a impermeable foam pad for engineered wood flooring (and laminate).
You could still use the screeded wood floor method today and probably save money on plywood, but the sound of your foot tap would not be consistent as you walk across the floor.
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
14y
Thanks for all the good suggestions everyone.
Brian Hoyt I had never heard the word screed but I knew exactly what you meant. I assumed there was some kind of joist like framework application to concrete for hard wood but didn't know what it was called. In this setting I think there are too many challenges when raising the floor level. Putting room transitions aside and the fact that house has 1990s metal six panel doors that would have to be replaced, there's a fireplace and hearth and a few other places where I can't see it working easily. I hadn't thought about the sound issue when using hardwood on a frame above concrete, so thanks for pointing that out.
Will Barnard Agreed, the best and easiest thing is to replace carpet with carpet. However, the main living area is combination dining/living, with an open kitchen and the door to the backyard patio. Carpet in dining areas is sad, IMO. And carpet in hallways and areas with active exterior egress is even sadder. The main living areas and hall need to be something durable and cleanable and will make the room pop in a way carpeting can't. I already made peace with putting nice carpeting in the bedrooms.
Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
14y
K. Marie Poe,
Yeah, I'm not sure why they call it a "screeded wood floor". A screed, technically, is a piece of wood that you would run over fresh concrete to level it to the forms. My guess is that they (the locals here) called it a screeded wood floor because the concrete was screed finished rather than burnished to a smooth finsish as is done today. I too, knew exactly what it meant the first time I heard it, although I had no justification for understanding what it meant, haha!
Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
14y
K. Marie Poe - Agreed, I would not carpet dining areas or ingress/egress areas either. My suggestion is to do what I do in homes of this size and caliber which would be tile. I use an 18 X 18 earthtone tile (easy to install on cement foundation) which only costs me $0.92 per sq. ft for the tile material, plus install as well as the minor costs of grout and thin set. Durable, cleanable, warm, and long lasting, this adds value and looks great.
Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
14y
Will Barnard Thanks for your suggestion. For the most part I don't like a lot of the tile installations I see. I find them cold for living room areas and too much grid. However, I've seen some 18" tiles that looked pretty good, in both earth tones and off whites. And the price is right. This living room area is small with a fire place so I think I might reconsider tile. Any particular product you recommend?
Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
14y
Send me an email and I will get you in touch with my supplier. Email in my sig. I agree that the grid look can be bad, I avoid that with the 18" tiles nd a 1/8" grout lines to avoid that.
Real Estate Investor · Virginia, DC &, MD · Member since 2008 · 261 posts · 71 votes
14y
Originally posted by K. Marie Poe:
Will Barnard Thanks for your suggestion. For the most part I don't like a lot of the tile installations I see. I find them cold for living room areas and too much grid. However, I've seen some 18" tiles that looked pretty good, in both earth tones and off whites. And the price is right. This living room area is small with a fire place so I think I might reconsider tile. Any particular product you recommend?
One way to avoid the grid look is to install your tile on a diagonal or diamond pattern when viewed from the main area. We always do this in bathrooms and kitchens. As for bamboo, Home Depot has nice bamboo for $1.89 sq ft. We have used it in nail down and also have glued to concrete. Buyers love it. Had been using the Toast finish but have recently switched to the Java finish. The only funky thing to account for is that the bamboois only 3/8" thick. It's either a good thing or creates transition issues where it meets tile. I like even transitions without the use of reducers.
jim
Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes
14y
As far as tile patterns go, I prefer a pattern where there are multiple tile sizes and shapes. For example, a large square, a rectangle half the size of the square and a small sqaure half the size of the rectangle. That will give a lot of depth and texture - very common, very classy. It costs just a little more than uniform sized tiles.
If you must use uniform sized tiles, you can interrupt the grid patter slightly by placing one row offset by half the distance of the next.