Cleveland Ohio Vs Columbus Ohio

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Cleveland Ohio Vs Columbus Ohio

Tonye Jack
Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2018 · 67 posts · 56 votes

I'm a first time out of state investor living in NYC and looking to purchase property in Ohio. In speaking with realtors in either market, I've received "bias" opinions based on the areas they serve. Any investors with experience in either of these markets, share their thoughts likes/dislikes. 

Thank you 

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Remington LymanBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
5y
Originally posted by @James Maradits:
Originally posted by @Marc Rice:

@Tonye Jack

You can make a lot of money in both markets. It just depends what your long term goals are and if you want appreciation for wealth creation (Columbus) or strictly cash flow with more headaches (Cleveland).

 ReafCo in the house! My favorite Columbus shill crew.

Just curious, what is your basis for the assumption that there are "more headaches" in Cleveland?  Have you ever been to Cleveland?  Have you ever done a deal in Cleveland? How does one quantify headaches, particularly in a market they are not truly familiar with?

 Here is the graph I found about headaches in Columbus vs Cleveland. It is pretty telling

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  • Anthony Warren
    Flipper/Rehabber · New York, NY · Member since 2020 · 19 posts · 18 votes
    5y

    @Tonye Jack I currently invest in Cleveland Ohio and I’m based in nyc as well. With Cleveland rents are great for the purchase price of the property and there is a lot of house flippers in the area. You will find very low purchase price properties in Cleveland. Most you need to add some rehab. But the returns are great.

    Columbus: from what I know in Columbus prices are higher than Cleveland. Rents are good. But the main thing is the fast appreciation on the properties.. vs Cleveland it’s a little slower.

    4Reply
  • Mark Navarrete
    Member since 2019 · 61 posts · 23 votes
    5y

    @Tonye Jack Hey Tonye, I’m from Brooklyn NY and I’m also possibly looking to invest in OH real estate. Similar to you I have received the same sentiment when talking with agents/brokers. I think both markets work for cashflow but obviously Cleveland has a lower entry price point. Columbus on on the other hand is more stable a little better local economy and a chance of more appreciation. At least that’s what I’ve been told. What made you choose OH?

    2Reply
  • Mark Navarrete
    Member since 2019 · 61 posts · 23 votes
    5y

    @Anthony Warren what’s up Anthony, I’ve been told to stay away from East Side of Cleveland. Any advice you can give as to what areas are the good parts? Are you currently investing in Cleveland?

    0Reply
  • Anthony Warren
    Flipper/Rehabber · New York, NY · Member since 2020 · 19 posts · 18 votes
    5y

    @Mark Navarrete how you doing brother. As I am new to investing as well with only one brrrr deal done in Cleveland looking for my next now. From what I been told and seen from contractors and few agents. East side property values and lower and arv is lower. Now it depends what your looking.

    The west side of Cleveland values are a little high but arv is higher.

    My rental is In east side of Cleveland. But I’m focus on the west now. But still look on the east because if the numbers make sense go for it. But definitely put security on your homes when vacant.

    1Reply
  • Mark Navarrete
    Member since 2019 · 61 posts · 23 votes
    5y

    @Anthony Warren cool thanks for that info. It’s great to have your first Brrrr deal under your belt and much success to you. How was it on the refinance side of the transaction? Did your mortgage company require seasoning? How is your property management? I held a property out of state in Pa and I went through 4 management companies in one year. It was crazy and makes me very skeptical about out of state investing.

    0Reply
  • Dave StokleyBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 699 posts · 799 votes
    5y

    You all need to come to Cleveland to drive the neighborhoods and meet some agents. "Stay away from the East side" is bad advice because it's way too general. There are nice neighborhoods, up-and-coming neighborhoods, and ghettos. In many places it changes dramatically from street to street. But there are definitely flippers making lots of money on the East side of Cleveland and its suburbs. 

    A round-trip flight from NYC is < $100 right now. Even when there's not a pandemic it's about $200. Worth it to get familiar with the city!

    5Reply
  • Remington LymanBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Tonye Jack:

    I'm a first time out of state investor living in NYC and looking to purchase property in Ohio. In speaking with realtors in either market, I've received "bias" opinions based on the areas they serve. Any investors with experience in either of these markets, share their thoughts likes/dislikes. 

    Thank you 

    I am an experienced investor in Columbus. I like the job and population growth since that drives appreciation

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  • Mark Navarrete
    Member since 2019 · 61 posts · 23 votes
    5y

    @David Stokley Hello David, I would like to visit but with the pandemic I’m a little nervous to fly. I know the drive is like 8 plus hrs so that might be a little ruff but I’m willing to do. What is your investment experience? Like most investors I’m interested in a Brrrr property that cash flows after refinance and debt service at a 10% cap. In your experience is this possible?

    1Reply
  • Dave StokleyBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 699 posts · 799 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Mark Navarrete:

    @David Stokley Hello David, I would like to visit but with the pandemic I’m a little nervous to fly. I know the drive is like 8 plus hrs so that might be a little ruff but I’m willing to do. What is your investment experience? Like most investors I’m interested in a Brrrr property that cash flows after refinance and debt service at a 10% cap. In your experience is this possible?

    Yeah totally understand that. I own a few multifamilies here that are/were all BRRRs and I have a company that operates Airbnbs for other investors. I think you can probably get 10% here after a BRRR, but the market is definitely tighter than it used to be and you'll probably have to work for it.

    1Reply
  • Brandon SturgillBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Columbus, OH · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @Tonye Jack One thing to consider is the Columbus, as a city is roughly 3x the size of Cleveland, so they really are not even in the same category....they are, however, similar sized metro statistical (MSA) areas of 2 million or so...that means there is a lot of opportunity in either MSA...you just have to find it. Traditionally bad neighborhoods will likely be closer to the center of downtown...and things gradually improve as you move out to the suburbs...the sweet spot is finding something in between. You'll find Columbus to be a generally more expensive market with wild appreciation...you will find more value in Cleveland, but the general tradeoff is the stability and appreciation of the market.

    Columbus will be one of the 10 biggest cities in the county within 10-years...it's 14 now...and there is no sign of slowing...my standing prediction is it eclipses Chicago in 50-years, but we'll see. Cleveland has been shrinking for 40-years...its the fall from a once great city that is hard to watch.

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  • Michelle Fenn
    Real Estate Agent · Cleveland OH · Member since 2015 · 213 posts · 275 votes
    5y


    Everyone looking at Cleveland, Cuyahoga County, should also look at Akron, Summit County. Much better run government, public housing, a landlord neutral court.    Less than an hour from Cleveland without a lot to the big city Cleveland problems.   My pick is northern summit county, low taxes, good schools, drive by POS and easy access to Akron and Cleveland.    44067  44056 44086      Parma Equivilent -  Cuyahoga Falls   44221 and 44223     Also check Stow   44224

    In Akron you want to be North Fairlawn neighborhood  44313 44333  but Ellet down south is a nice point of entry   44312

    7Reply
  • Tonye Jack
    OP
    Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2018 · 67 posts · 56 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Brandon Sturgill:

    @Tonye Jack One thing to consider is the Columbus, as a city is roughly 3x the size of Cleveland, so they really are not even in the same category....they are, however, similar sized metro statistical (MSA) areas of 2 million or so...that means there is a lot of opportunity in either MSA...you just have to find it. Traditionally bad neighborhoods will likely be closer to the center of downtown...and things gradually improve as you move out to the suburbs...the sweet spot is finding something in between. You'll find Columbus to be a generally more expensive market with wild appreciation...you will find more value in Cleveland, but the general tradeoff is the stability and appreciation of the market.

    Columbus will be one of the 10 biggest cities in the county within 10-years...it's 14 now...and there is no sign of slowing...my standing prediction is it eclipses Chicago in 50-years, but we'll see. Cleveland has been shrinking for 40-years...its the fall from a once great city that is hard to watch.

    That is very bullish on Columbus market. I'm definitely very interested in the appreciation component that's a great play for scaling quickly with the equity built up. Would like to connect further, sent you a PM.

    2Reply
  • Tonye Jack
    OP
    Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2018 · 67 posts · 56 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Dave Stokley:
    Originally posted by @Mark Navarrete:

    @David Stokley Hello David, I would like to visit but with the pandemic I’m a little nervous to fly. I know the drive is like 8 plus hrs so that might be a little ruff but I’m willing to do. What is your investment experience? Like most investors I’m interested in a Brrrr property that cash flows after refinance and debt service at a 10% cap. In your experience is this possible?

    Yeah totally understand that. I own a few multifamilies here that are/were all BRRRs and I have a company that operates Airbnbs for other investors. I think you can probably get 10% here after a BRRR, but the market is definitely tighter than it used to be and you'll probably have to work for it.

    David, what do you for property management do you self manage the BRRR's. I'm finishing mostly large scale property managers only.

    1Reply
  • Tonye Jack
    OP
    Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2018 · 67 posts · 56 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Mark Navarrete:

    @Tonye Jack Hey Tonye, I’m from Brooklyn NY and I’m also possibly looking to invest in OH real estate. Similar to you I have received the same sentiment when talking with agents/brokers. I think both markets work for cashflow but obviously Cleveland has a lower entry price point. Columbus on on the other hand is more stable a little better local economy and a chance of more appreciation. At least that’s what I’ve been told. What made you choose OH?

    Honestly proximity to NY and also size of the different metros in Ohio. It's becoming more apparent that in either area one can do well. Just have to make sure the deal works for the immediate goals. 

    0Reply
  • Dave StokleyBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 699 posts · 799 votes
    5y

    @Tonye Jack yes

    0Reply
  • Robert Matelski
    Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2018 · 214 posts · 270 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Brandon Sturgill:

    @Tonye Jack One thing to consider is the Columbus, as a city is roughly 3x the size of Cleveland, so they really are not even in the same category....they are, however, similar sized metro statistical (MSA) areas of 2 million or so...that means there is a lot of opportunity in either MSA...you just have to find it. Traditionally bad neighborhoods will likely be closer to the center of downtown...and things gradually improve as you move out to the suburbs...the sweet spot is finding something in between. You'll find Columbus to be a generally more expensive market with wild appreciation...you will find more value in Cleveland, but the general tradeoff is the stability and appreciation of the market.

    Columbus will be one of the 10 biggest cities in the county within 10-years...it's 14 now...and there is no sign of slowing...my standing prediction is it eclipses Chicago in 50-years, but we'll see. Cleveland has been shrinking for 40-years...its the fall from a once great city that is hard to watch.

    I think you are being too modest and are underestimating the growth trajectory of the great city of Columbus, Ohio, Brandon! Between having a large state university, an insurance company HQ, and even some retail brands' home bases, why would anyone want to live anywhere OTHER than Columbus in the coming decades?! They even have multiple direct international flights now (to both Toronto AND Cancun)!! At this point I cannot imagine any scenario in which Columbus does not quickly eclipse Chicago... and also NYC, LA, and of course the San Francisco Bay Area. As for Cleveland... well, it's only a matter of time before Columbus annexes that too... which will finally make it a coastal city!

    5Reply
  • Anthony Warren
    Flipper/Rehabber · New York, NY · Member since 2020 · 19 posts · 18 votes
    5y

    @Mark Navarrete the property manager they are ok so far. In the beginning few things but nothing major was my fault honestly. They sent their own contractors to do some work at the property and it was soooooo expensive. So I informed them to notify me first for tenant repair issues as I have my own contractors and handy men. But so far they are good.

    1Reply
  • Benj Canales
    Rental Property Investor · Tacoma, WA · Member since 2021 · 4 posts · 3 votes
    5y

    Hey @Tonye Jack -

    Check out Deeper Pockets Real Estate Rookie Podcast Episode 16. I pasted the link below. It’s titled “How to Pick Your Perfect Market: Cleveland vs. Columbus Case Study With Dave Meyer and Jamie Gallagher”. They in depth in each market and compare them.

    Hope it brings you as much value as it brought me!

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/rookie-podcast-16-dave-meyer-and-jamie-gallagher

    3Reply
  • James MaraditsPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 239 posts · 224 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Robert Matelski:
    Originally posted by @Brandon Sturgill:

    @Tonye Jack One thing to consider is the Columbus, as a city is roughly 3x the size of Cleveland, so they really are not even in the same category....they are, however, similar sized metro statistical (MSA) areas of 2 million or so...that means there is a lot of opportunity in either MSA...you just have to find it. Traditionally bad neighborhoods will likely be closer to the center of downtown...and things gradually improve as you move out to the suburbs...the sweet spot is finding something in between. You'll find Columbus to be a generally more expensive market with wild appreciation...you will find more value in Cleveland, but the general tradeoff is the stability and appreciation of the market.

    Columbus will be one of the 10 biggest cities in the county within 10-years...it's 14 now...and there is no sign of slowing...my standing prediction is it eclipses Chicago in 50-years, but we'll see. Cleveland has been shrinking for 40-years...its the fall from a once great city that is hard to watch.

    I think you are being too modest and are underestimating the growth trajectory of the great city of Columbus, Ohio, Brandon! Between having a large state university, an insurance company HQ, and even some retail brands' home bases, why would anyone want to live anywhere OTHER than Columbus in the coming decades?! They even have multiple direct international flights now (to both Toronto AND Cancun)!! At this point I cannot imagine any scenario in which Columbus does not quickly eclipse Chicago... and also NYC, LA, and of course the San Francisco Bay Area. As for Cleveland... well, it's only a matter of time before Columbus annexes that too... which will finally make it a coastal city!

    Thank you for this.

    Although this particular conversation is directly intended to be a Cleveland vs Columbus discussion, the "Cleveland Real Estate Forum" is now just a tool for the Columbus shills to talk about how much greater Columbus is than Cleveland rather than a resource where actual investors in the Cleveland market can have constructive conversation.  They're going to milk this one for all its worth then move on to pirating the Indianapolis, Detroit, Pittsburgh, and Buffalo forums next.

    4Reply
  • Remington LymanBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @James Maradits:
    Originally posted by @Robert Matelski:
    Originally posted by @Brandon Sturgill:

    @Tonye Jack One thing to consider is the Columbus, as a city is roughly 3x the size of Cleveland, so they really are not even in the same category....they are, however, similar sized metro statistical (MSA) areas of 2 million or so...that means there is a lot of opportunity in either MSA...you just have to find it. Traditionally bad neighborhoods will likely be closer to the center of downtown...and things gradually improve as you move out to the suburbs...the sweet spot is finding something in between. You'll find Columbus to be a generally more expensive market with wild appreciation...you will find more value in Cleveland, but the general tradeoff is the stability and appreciation of the market.

    Columbus will be one of the 10 biggest cities in the county within 10-years...it's 14 now...and there is no sign of slowing...my standing prediction is it eclipses Chicago in 50-years, but we'll see. Cleveland has been shrinking for 40-years...its the fall from a once great city that is hard to watch.

    I think you are being too modest and are underestimating the growth trajectory of the great city of Columbus, Ohio, Brandon! Between having a large state university, an insurance company HQ, and even some retail brands' home bases, why would anyone want to live anywhere OTHER than Columbus in the coming decades?! They even have multiple direct international flights now (to both Toronto AND Cancun)!! At this point I cannot imagine any scenario in which Columbus does not quickly eclipse Chicago... and also NYC, LA, and of course the San Francisco Bay Area. As for Cleveland... well, it's only a matter of time before Columbus annexes that too... which will finally make it a coastal city!

    Thank you for this.

    Although this particular conversation is directly intended to be a Cleveland vs Columbus discussion, the "Cleveland Real Estate Forum" is now just a tool for the Columbus shills to talk about how much greater Columbus is than Cleveland rather than a resource where actual investors in the Cleveland market can have constructive conversation.  They're going to milk this one for all its worth then move on to pirating the Indianapolis, Detroit, Pittsburgh, and Buffalo forums next.

     This is why I just invest locally.

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    1Reply
  • Brandon SturgillBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Columbus, OH · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    lol...good points for sure @Robert Matelski

    And we have not even started to talk about insulation from natural disasters and access to fresh water ;) The risk index of the city is arguably the best in the country

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  • Brandon SturgillBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Columbus, OH · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @Benj Canales Thanks for providing the link...nothing personal, but this is probably the most inaccurate and irrelevant podcast I have ever heard...it's a valiant effort and he seems like a nice guy, but completely irrelevant and misleading. I mean he's not even relevant with any of the content about either city...

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  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    5y

    @Tonye Jack I'm certainly not an expert on these markets but I do track the economic and demographic trends in about a dozen markets including these two so I know them from a macro level. Cleveland and Columbus are very different markets. Columbus has much stronger economic and demographic fundamentals and a more modern, diverse economy. For me personally, it would be an easy decision. If you like the cash flow that the Midwest offers, I would encourage you to add Indianapolis and Kansas City to your short list. Like Columbus, both have strong population growth, job growth (pre COVID) and modern, diverse industries. Both are excellent cash flow markets.

    4Reply
  • Marc RiceBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus Cleveland Dayton, OH · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    @Tonye Jack

    You can make a lot of money in both markets. It just depends what your long term goals are and if you want appreciation for wealth creation (Columbus) or strictly cash flow with more headaches (Cleveland).

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  • James MaraditsPro Member
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 239 posts · 224 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Marc Rice:

    @Tonye Jack

    You can make a lot of money in both markets. It just depends what your long term goals are and if you want appreciation for wealth creation (Columbus) or strictly cash flow with more headaches (Cleveland).

     ReafCo in the house! My favorite Columbus shill crew.

    Just curious, what is your basis for the assumption that there are "more headaches" in Cleveland?  Have you ever been to Cleveland?  Have you ever done a deal in Cleveland? How does one quantify headaches, particularly in a market they are not truly familiar with?

    4Reply
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