Has anyone used The “flip system” by the Martels?
Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 20 votes
Has anyone used The “flip system” by the Martels?
Most Popular Reply
Member since 2023 · 1 post · 21 votes
2yI join Flip System early this year, I would like to say they are over exaggerated on they advertisement and whatever you paid have 0 guarantee!
When you trying to work with them and buy their services, they will asking you to pay $15K to join, and you'll have to sign an “Agreement”, basically the “Agreement” is a disclaimer, they don’t take any responsibility on their advertisement!(Scam alert or not? Make your own judgement, I will just keep neutral here and state my experience only)
Their “Exaggerated Advertisement” which only show off the success case but never mentioned about the failed cases (which probably will be count more over the success cases)
1.They promote that most of their clients(Or they like call them “”Student”) make a bout $10K to $30K per deal.
But the reality is they have 0 guarantee on it, you most likely will lose your some money on your deals or spend $150Hr/projects make nothing. During my 6 months using their services, I lose $15K on one deal, make almost 0 on another deal, make $10k on the last deal. I found out, it is worthless to me to invest in this way. I spend $400Hr+ to manage these three projects and end up losing $5K (Plus $15K I paid them, and their service charge of total about $4K), so I lost about $25K and my 400Hr time. It just not working for me, unless I can really get access to really low price deals but unfortunately all the deals they sourcing to me is whatever I can find on Zillow.
2.They promote they will have their agents to help you, their investors to fund you, their contractor to help you rehab the property
Hmm… Isn’t it free to find some agent on Bigger Pockets(Maybe you can interview 100 if you like)? And isn’t it tons of Capital trying to lend money to you? Or millions of worker out there if you give them a project to do?
On my experience, their agent really treat me as a “student”, had very bad attitude towards me, I end up spend sometime on bigger pockets to find some other agents. Their lender, mostly like is a Broker, charges me 3.5% points fees(Why I just not directly contact a lender that only charges 2% points?), their contractor charges 30% more than other contractor in the area, which is main reason first 2 of the deals I did there not profitable (I’m just too native and, trust all the words from their agent…)
3.In their advertisement, they said Martel did over 1,000 flips
I bet that may not be true, but I have no clue, if FlipSystem you wanna sue me on this, let's proof it!
4.They guarantee you, you will have your first offer accepted in first 30 or 45 days I believe
Come on… There are millions of listing in the mid-west region, all their listings are from Zillow… Basically everybody can do that by themself…
The biggest point is, all the houses in these regions are old houses with tons of issues… I bought a house with crack foundation, that fix costs me $12k…(All because I trust the Agent telling me the contractor will help us to do the inspection and we save that $500 inspection fees)
So buying a houses in these regions are really easy, it is just there, the biggest thing is you need to have the team and source to inspect these property and fix the problem on the property.
Unfortunately, in FlipSystem’s advertisement they never mention this part, that’s like putting the inexperienced people into the big RISK!…Which I against the way they operating the business, because people will have more trouble in their life because of these.
Overall there are many “Too good to be true” advertisement they published everywhere, but the reality after I used it, I just felt like not really is what it is sound like. And they will char your money directly from getting your checking number from your bank account, and with the agreement you had with them, it is almost 0% chance you can get refunded. I don’t wanna say anything on that, but from the real process flow, they designed the payment process intentionally to block you from get refund if you are not happy or losing money in the investment…
In summary:
FlipSystem uses exaggerated advertisement but not taking any responsibility on the paid customer. (Which is literally on the contract they asked every client to sign), their services not worth the amount they asking, they don’t have too much stuff besides that you can get from free on Bigger Pockets or Zillow…
I bet not only me who lost some investment in FlipSystem, but the thing is if you post any negative messages inside their Discord Channel, you will either get a delete, block of message or even kicked out of the Discord, that’s what I see from my friend's case, that’s why I didn’t say anything inside their discord group, because it is useless.
46 Replies
- 3yJay HinrichsBusiness MemberReal Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
U know a good agent will do pretty much all that in the price of the commission the seller pays.
- Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes3y
@Sean Lemon
You are 1000x better off investing passively then paying a huge fee for someone to find you deals.
7e investments53 Reviews - Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 20 votes3y
Quote from @Jay Hinrichs:
U know a good agent will do pretty much all that in the price of the commission the seller pays.
This is a great point. I need to study more markets to see where the right investment will be. Just love the idea of someone streamlining everything for me in order to save time.
- Rental Property Investor · San Francisco Bay Area · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes3y
I got on two calls with the Martels. The first one was when I was considering buying with Martel Turnkey. The properties I looked at online were in Detroit area and Ohio (mostly Cleveland). I don't believe that there was an additional fee but it's 20% down. They emailed their lenders, suggested property managers, etc. I felt they were honest and had a good system in place but told them I need to think about it. I just never bought anything through them because I went with Indianapolis metro area, a market I know much better since I used to live there. I don't know Detroit or Ohio so it would have taken more months of research.
The other call was the FlipSystem. They told me it was $15,000. I didn't hear anything about a $200 fee. I wound up networking with a real estate agent on BP who works with investors in Indianapolis and I closed recently on a move-in ready house, which will be a long term rental. I negotiated an aggressive offer with the seller and we met in the middle.
I personally wouldn't invest thousands of dollars into any program but it may work for some people. My agent has a team with contractors, etc so I'm looking into doing a fix and flip (still hesitating on flipping but I need to build more capital) or a BRRRR in Indianapolis. I would rather go this route and the seller pays the commission not me as the buyer paying additional fees.
- Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 20 votes3y
Quote from @Becca F.:
I got on two calls with the Martels. The first one was when I was considering buying with Martel Turnkey. The properties I looked at online were in Detroit area and Ohio (mostly Cleveland). I don't believe that there was an additional fee but it's 20% down. They emailed their lenders, suggested property managers, etc. I felt they were honest and had a good system in place but told them I need to think about it. I just never bought anything through them because I went with Indianapolis metro area, a market I know much better since I used to live there. I don't know Detroit or Ohio so it would have taken more months of research.
The other call was the FlipSystem. They told me it was $15,000. I didn't hear anything about a $200 fee. I wound up networking with a real estate agent on BP who works with investors in Indianapolis and I closed recently on a move-in ready house, which will be a long term rental. I negotiated an aggressive offer with the seller and we met in the middle.
I personally wouldn't invest thousands of dollars into any program but it may work for some people. My agent has a team with contractors, etc so I'm looking into doing a fix and flip (still hesitating on flipping but I need to build more capital) or a BRRRR in Indianapolis. I would rather go this route and the seller pays the commission not me as the buyer paying additional fees.
Love this. I would prefer to BRRRR and build that long term wealth also. Thank you
- Columbus, OH · Member since 2023 · 427 posts · 254 votes3y
$15k is a lot when you could find a local agent who's experienced working with investors and get similar resources from them for 3% commission. Agents with experience will be receiving a lot of listings, both on and off market, and should have a nice network of lenders, PMs, contractors, etc.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes3y
spicy thread.
- Rental Property Investor · San Francisco Bay Area · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes3y
On Martel's FlipSystem site, it says people make $10,000 to $20,000 per deal after expenses. I think most of his flips are in inexpensive cities like Cleveland, Detroit area, etc.
I think $10,000 to $20,000 (before IRS taxes) is a really small profit margin. If the house takes longer than anticipated to sell, that $10,000 could go to $5000 or $0 quickly. Holding costs (insurance for vacant property, utilities, and interest payments for Hard Money Loans) can eat up your profits. Then if it doesn't sell, I would assume the exit strategy is to hold it as rental? When I was considering doing a flip, I was looking at least minimum $40,000 profit margin in the Midwest when I did the deal analysis. I wouldn't go through all that trouble to make $10,000 to $20,000 but I guess that amount is acceptable to some people.
I know a few successful flippers and they're in the San Francisco Bay Area - their profit is at least $200,000 to over a $1 million. I've talked to several investors and they'll tell me how they did their flips and not charge me $15,000 lol :)
- Realtor · Columbus Ohio, Cleveland Ohio · Member since 2022 · 849 posts · 830 votes3y
Quote from @Sean Lemon:
Looking for some first hand experience about this program. As someone who works long hours and shift work, I love the idea of someone else vetting the deals for me. The hardest part for me is finding the time to locate and analyze deals while working my “9-5” and trying to be a present husband and father. Was looking for some honest reviews from anyone who’s bought in to this system. I understand there is a 15k initiation fee and $200 monthly. That doesn’t bother me. It’s worth it if they’re actually finding, sending me deals, introducing me to lenders and contractors. I see where it could save me years of experience. Thanks everyone.
I havent bought it but i think you can get better margins without paying all those fees. A good realtor should be able to find good deals but at the end of the day its up to you to do the DD and run your numbers. No one can do it for you or youll get screwed. If you dont have time to do that buy a long term rental. If you dont have time for THAT... put it in the S&P
- Member since 2023 · 1 post · 21 votes2y
I join Flip System early this year, I would like to say they are over exaggerated on they advertisement and whatever you paid have 0 guarantee!
When you trying to work with them and buy their services, they will asking you to pay $15K to join, and you'll have to sign an “Agreement”, basically the “Agreement” is a disclaimer, they don’t take any responsibility on their advertisement!(Scam alert or not? Make your own judgement, I will just keep neutral here and state my experience only)
Their “Exaggerated Advertisement” which only show off the success case but never mentioned about the failed cases (which probably will be count more over the success cases)1.They promote that most of their clients(Or they like call them “”Student”) make a bout $10K to $30K per deal.
But the reality is they have 0 guarantee on it, you most likely will lose your some money on your deals or spend $150Hr/projects make nothing. During my 6 months using their services, I lose $15K on one deal, make almost 0 on another deal, make $10k on the last deal. I found out, it is worthless to me to invest in this way. I spend $400Hr+ to manage these three projects and end up losing $5K (Plus $15K I paid them, and their service charge of total about $4K), so I lost about $25K and my 400Hr time. It just not working for me, unless I can really get access to really low price deals but unfortunately all the deals they sourcing to me is whatever I can find on Zillow.
2.They promote they will have their agents to help you, their investors to fund you, their contractor to help you rehab the property
Hmm… Isn’t it free to find some agent on Bigger Pockets(Maybe you can interview 100 if you like)? And isn’t it tons of Capital trying to lend money to you? Or millions of worker out there if you give them a project to do?
On my experience, their agent really treat me as a “student”, had very bad attitude towards me, I end up spend sometime on bigger pockets to find some other agents. Their lender, mostly like is a Broker, charges me 3.5% points fees(Why I just not directly contact a lender that only charges 2% points?), their contractor charges 30% more than other contractor in the area, which is main reason first 2 of the deals I did there not profitable (I’m just too native and, trust all the words from their agent…)3.In their advertisement, they said Martel did over 1,000 flips
I bet that may not be true, but I have no clue, if FlipSystem you wanna sue me on this, let's proof it!
4.They guarantee you, you will have your first offer accepted in first 30 or 45 days I believe
Come on… There are millions of listing in the mid-west region, all their listings are from Zillow… Basically everybody can do that by themself…
The biggest point is, all the houses in these regions are old houses with tons of issues… I bought a house with crack foundation, that fix costs me $12k…(All because I trust the Agent telling me the contractor will help us to do the inspection and we save that $500 inspection fees)So buying a houses in these regions are really easy, it is just there, the biggest thing is you need to have the team and source to inspect these property and fix the problem on the property.
Unfortunately, in FlipSystem’s advertisement they never mention this part, that’s like putting the inexperienced people into the big RISK!…Which I against the way they operating the business, because people will have more trouble in their life because of these.
Overall there are many “Too good to be true” advertisement they published everywhere, but the reality after I used it, I just felt like not really is what it is sound like. And they will char your money directly from getting your checking number from your bank account, and with the agreement you had with them, it is almost 0% chance you can get refunded. I don’t wanna say anything on that, but from the real process flow, they designed the payment process intentionally to block you from get refund if you are not happy or losing money in the investment…
In summary:
FlipSystem uses exaggerated advertisement but not taking any responsibility on the paid customer. (Which is literally on the contract they asked every client to sign), their services not worth the amount they asking, they don’t have too much stuff besides that you can get from free on Bigger Pockets or Zillow…
I bet not only me who lost some investment in FlipSystem, but the thing is if you post any negative messages inside their Discord Channel, you will either get a delete, block of message or even kicked out of the Discord, that’s what I see from my friend's case, that’s why I didn’t say anything inside their discord group, because it is useless.
- Member since 2023 · 1 post · 1 vote2y
Quote from @Jordan Hunter:
I join Flip System early this year, I would like to say they are over exaggerated on they advertisement and whatever you paid have 0 guarantee!
When you trying to work with them and buy their services, they will asking you to pay $15K to join, and you'll have to sign an “Agreement”, basically the “Agreement” is a disclaimer, they don’t take any responsibility on their advertisement!(Scam alert or not? Make your own judgement, I will just keep neutral here and state my experience only)
Their “Exaggerated Advertisement” which only show off the success case but never mentioned about the failed cases (which probably will be count more over the success cases)1.They promote that most of their clients(Or they like call them “”Student”) make a bout $10K to $30K per deal.
But the reality is they have 0 guarantee on it, you most likely will lose your some money on your deals or spend $150Hr/projects make nothing. During my 6 months using their services, I lose $15K on one deal, make almost 0 on another deal, make $10k on the last deal. I found out, it is worthless to me to invest in this way. I spend $400Hr+ to manage these three projects and end up losing $5K (Plus $15K I paid them, and their service charge of total about $4K), so I lost about $25K and my 400Hr time. It just not working for me, unless I can really get access to really low price deals but unfortunately all the deals they sourcing to me is whatever I can find on Zillow.
2.They promote they will have their agents to help you, their investors to fund you, their contractor to help you rehab the property
Hmm… Isn’t it free to find some agent on Bigger Pockets(Maybe you can interview 100 if you like)? And isn’t it tons of Capital trying to lend money to you? Or millions of worker out there if you give them a project to do?
On my experience, their agent really treat me as a “student”, had very bad attitude towards me, I end up spend sometime on bigger pockets to find some other agents. Their lender, mostly like is a Broker, charges me 3.5% points fees(Why I just not directly contact a lender that only charges 2% points?), their contractor charges 30% more than other contractor in the area, which is main reason first 2 of the deals I did there not profitable (I’m just too native and, trust all the words from their agent…)3.In their advertisement, they said Martel did over 1,000 flips
I bet that may not be true, but I have no clue, if FlipSystem you wanna sue me on this, let's proof it!
4.They guarantee you, you will have your first offer accepted in first 30 or 45 days I believe
Come on… There are millions of listing in the mid-west region, all their listings are from Zillow… Basically everybody can do that by themself…
The biggest point is, all the houses in these regions are old houses with tons of issues… I bought a house with crack foundation, that fix costs me $12k…(All because I trust the Agent telling me the contractor will help us to do the inspection and we save that $500 inspection fees)So buying a houses in these regions are really easy, it is just there, the biggest thing is you need to have the team and source to inspect these property and fix the problem on the property.
Unfortunately, in FlipSystem’s advertisement they never mention this part, that’s like putting the inexperienced people into the big RISK!…Which I against the way they operating the business, because people will have more trouble in their life because of these.
Overall there are many “Too good to be true” advertisement they published everywhere, but the reality after I used it, I just felt like not really is what it is sound like. And they will char your money directly from getting your checking number from your bank account, and with the agreement you had with them, it is almost 0% chance you can get refunded. I don’t wanna say anything on that, but from the real process flow, they designed the payment process intentionally to block you from get refund if you are not happy or losing money in the investment…
In summary:
FlipSystem uses exaggerated advertisement but not taking any responsibility on the paid customer. (Which is literally on the contract they asked every client to sign), their services not worth the amount they asking, they don’t have too much stuff besides that you can get from free on Bigger Pockets or Zillow…
I bet not only me who lost some investment in FlipSystem, but the thing is if you post any negative messages inside their Discord Channel, you will either get a delete, block of message or even kicked out of the Discord, that’s what I see from my friend's case, that’s why I didn’t say anything inside their discord group, because it is useless.
No one named Jordan Hunter has ever joined FlipSystem before
This post is completely fabricated.
- Real Estate Agent · Bay Area · Member since 2022 · 25 posts · 19 votes2y
Sounds like a joke... I just saw an instagram post for this and wanted to do some quick research. Thats when I saw your post... They want you pay a 15k initiation fee!? Nope.
- Member since 2023 · 4 posts · 27 votes2y
Hello,
I joined last year, and it has not been a good experience. I appreciate their effort in tackling a challenging task/business, but the execution is not worth the $14K-$15K price tag in my opinion.
The $200 monthly fee is for their PTS system, which is optional.
Based on my firsthand experience:
If you value attention to detail and want high-quality workmanship to ensure your rentals last and reach their target ARV value, and if you'd rather not spend time constantly providing feedback to their on-ground rehab teams, this may not be the right choice for you.
If you expect your property flips to be completed within a reasonable timeframe, this may not be the right fit. I initially received an estimate for a 2-week timeline (project was already halfway done), but the project didn't finish until a whopping 3 months later. Despite the lengthy delay, the work performed was basic cosmetic updates, not high-end flips. This ebbs and flows, but there is a lack of clear communication when delays happen which make it worse.
To address the persistent issues, I traveled to Detroit to meet with the team and clearly communicate my expectations. However, I continued to receive updates with the same problems, even though I was willing to pay for any necessary change orders.
Perhaps the most challenging aspect of this "flipsystem" is the lack of clarity regarding who they serve. No one takes accountability for the teams they introduce you to, even if they make mistakes and they were introduced and paired up with you by Flipsystem. Disputes are left unresolved in most cases they just hope the investor figures it out, and the rehab teams seem to hold all the power, despite being contracted for your business with a $15K onboarding fee.
Delays in your rehab project? Consider it normal. Appliances stolen? Blame falls on you. Your rehab team resistant to feedback? Not their concern. It's been a nightmare, and I deeply regret my decision.
In my experience, this system doesn't seem designed for genuine investors, maybe novice ones who don't care about the end result which is just not my goal. Instead, it appears to prioritize rehab teams that are more interested in low-quality flips rather than meeting investor expectations.
In summary, it's a suitable option if you're fine with fixing issues later, which becomes inevitable when projects are not given the proper attention, and teams resist feedback – a situation I'm currently facing. Hooray.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes2y
Quote from @Michael Smythe:
@Nicole Sweat Martel stopped referring our company because we wouldn't support their optimistic numbers on purchase price, rehab budget, ARV and rent.
We also dealt with a lot of novice investors who didn't seem to want to take the time to understand the process and the challenges.
ALL investors should understand that when renovating old homes, there are unexpected surprises that no one could predict. That's the one thing all the HGTV flipping shows get right - everyone we've ever seen has a renovation surprise that either increases the budget or requires cutting back elsewhere to keep the budget.
Contact us if we can assist with anything.
Well ya, lol who outside of a novice would pay $15k for a referral to a contractor?
- Member since 2023 · 4 posts · 27 votes2yNot quite, but I hear you. The way the business model is presented is that everything will be well managed and the teams on the ground will meet your standards and have the necessary experience. I’ve done flips before, and my goal was to scale in volume and work with an experienced team. What I ended up with was having to fly to Detroit myself to explain basic rehab issues that I could see in the photo updates, or to see the work in person for pictures I just wasn’t receiving and would request.
Quote from @James Wise:
Quote from @Michael Smythe:
@Nicole Sweat Martel stopped referring our company because we wouldn't support their optimistic numbers on purchase price, rehab budget, ARV and rent.
We also dealt with a lot of novice investors who didn't seem to want to take the time to understand the process and the challenges.
ALL investors should understand that when renovating old homes, there are unexpected surprises that no one could predict. That's the one thing all the HGTV flipping shows get right - everyone we've ever seen has a renovation surprise that either increases the budget or requires cutting back elsewhere to keep the budget.
Contact us if we can assist with anything.
Well ya, lol who outside of a novice would pay $15k for a referral to a contractor?
Ultimately, as others have said it would have been much easier and less costly for me just to meet with teams on the ground myself, which I ended up having to do anyway that met my standards. I wanted to give this a shot and the benefit of the doubt, it simply isn’t reality. Good luck to those in the good rehab fight. - Member since 2023 · 4 posts · 27 votes2y
Quote from @Michael Smythe:
@Nicole Sweat Martel stopped referring our company because we wouldn't support their optimistic numbers on purchase price, rehab budget, ARV and rent.
We also dealt with a lot of novice investors who didn't seem to want to take the time to understand the process and the challenges.
ALL investors should understand that when renovating old homes, there are unexpected surprises that no one could predict. That's the one thing all the HGTV flipping shows get right - everyone we've ever seen has a renovation surprise that either increases the budget or requires cutting back elsewhere to keep the budget.
Contact us if we can assist with anything.
Thanks for this note, I appreciate your insight. I definitely understand things come up all the time, as I mentioned in the original post, I was willing to have change orders made if teams brought anything up to me. But to be more specific, I saw gaps between boards in the flooring, bathtub drains with paint still in them from reglazing/aging, toilets left with feces, and numerous other very odd issues that are not rocket science for basic cosmetic flips that I shouldn't have to point out to an experienced CG or PM. Not to mention, when these issues were brought up the teams would lash out and become very upset about feedback. ;-(
- Member since 2024 · 1 post · 8 votes2y
I have invested 15k and have also paid 197.00 per month and it is absolutely NOT WORTH it.
The problem with the process is that their flips generate 10k or less and I done over 50 flips and it is a lot of work.
I absolutely don’t recommend it. I have asked for my money back ( the 15 k ). They offered me $7,500 about 45 days ago and nothing yet.
Just be careful.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes2y
Quote from @Joe Dicenzo:
I have invested 15k and have also paid 197.00 per month and it is absolutely NOT WORTH it.
The problem with the process is that their flips generate 10k or less and I done over 50 flips and it is a lot of work.
I absolutely don’t recommend it. I have asked for my money back ( the 15 k ). They offered me $7,500 about 45 days ago and nothing yet.
Just be careful.
What does "they offered me $7,500 about 45 days ago and nothing yet" mean? Like you agreed to that, and then they didn't send the money, or? What are you trying to say here?
- Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 911 votes2y
Quote from @Becca F.:
On Martel's FlipSystem site, it says people make $10,000 to $20,000 per deal after expenses. I think most of his flips are in inexpensive cities like Cleveland, Detroit area, etc.
I think $10,000 to $20,000 (before IRS taxes) is a really small profit margin. If the house takes longer than anticipated to sell, that $10,000 could go to $5000 or $0 quickly. Holding costs (insurance for vacant property, utilities, and interest payments for Hard Money Loans) can eat up your profits. Then if it doesn't sell, I would assume the exit strategy is to hold it as rental? When I was considering doing a flip, I was looking at least minimum $40,000 profit margin in the Midwest when I did the deal analysis. I wouldn't go through all that trouble to make $10,000 to $20,000 but I guess that amount is acceptable to some people.
I know a few successful flippers and they're in the San Francisco Bay Area - their profit is at least $200,000 to over a $1 million. I've talked to several investors and they'll tell me how they did their flips and not charge me $15,000 lol :)
Hey Becca, Antoine here (the owner of FlipSystem), we absolutely agree with your own assertion that there are numerous profitable strategies in real estate investing. As you mentioned in your reply post, you are looking for $40k minimum profit, but also know people that have done over $1,000,000 in profit. Over our 10+ years in the industry we have seen data that there is an almost unlimited high-end profit margin, but we also feel there is a relatively untapped and large inventory of lower profit flips available that most investors are not focusing on (that have multiple risk mitigation measures in place as well).
I hope this paints a clearer picture of why we focus on low-cost micro-flips across the Midwest rather than swinging for grand slams on the more expensive markets. ! A bunch of base hits, or one big grand slam, will all equal up to wins in the end, we rather just not risk swinging and missing big.
Our goal is to find the balance of profit, risk, and consistency. The potential in the Bay Area or other coastal markets is massive, but we have seen the risk is also high and the consistency for the average investor can be low. Building out a system of consistent deal flow for $200,000+ profit single-family flips is not something the average investor is realistically going to achieve in a lifetime.
Instead we focus on building out a system that is setup to handle multiple projects at a time, with multiple feature deals in the pipeline ready to go once capital is available again. Some people like to bet big and potentially lose big, we prefer to place medium size bets and consistently win more modest rewards.
By primarily investing in properties with an all-in cost under $100,000, we often have multiple viable exit strategies in case the original one does not work out (we don’t pretend to have a guaranteed crystal ball, but we do like to have options at the end, and we find that our students do as well!) Most deals that are predicted to have a $50,000+ profit in more expensive markets only have one viable exit strategy, and if the market shifts during the holding period, there is often very little that investors can do to quickly pivot.
There are tons of ways to succeed in real estate, and I’m not here to shut down anyone’s path.
We would love to connect with you about our investing strategy and why we think there is so much risk-adjusted opportunity in micro-flipping. Feel free to reach out to me directly to carry on the conversation or check out episode 878 on Bigger Pockets where I discuss in more detail some of the above benefits to micro-flipping https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/real-estate-878 - Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 911 votes2y
Quote from @Nate Marshall:
Everyone has a "flip system" and it's basically the same. You can copy it waith ease. Nothing new in real estate. People just create cute little names like "gator" to peddle their fraud and people jump all over it for the "cool but fraudulent factor".
Hey Nate, Antoine here (the owner of FlipSystem and Martel Turnkey). The recent years of gimmicky names is definitely getting a bit out of control (and frankly hurting investors), especially when the “teacher” is pivoting far far away from what that individual was originally successful at. Most of the projects our students do have several different exit strategies, but turnkey fix and flips is the one we often push for (easiest to pivot at the end if necessary to a rental, retail flip, etc); for that reason it made sense for us to use the word “Flip”. Adding the word “System” seemed like a natural and authentic choice since the same backend systems, on the ground teams, and one-on-one coaching we introduce to our clients have helped us at MartelTurnkey successfully flip over 650 homes in the last 10 years. What we have been doing with private investments at MartelTurnkey for nearly a decade and now publicly for our students with FlipSystem is definitely nothing “new” like you suggest; it is simply a time-tested system built to capitalize on a not new, but often overlooked, investment strategy called micro-flipping. I recently discussed in detail the concept of micro-flipping on Bigger Pockets podcast episode 878, and I think you would agree that although none of the strategies are “new”, when executed with the proper system, team, and strategy in place, you can still win without necessarily being new. I noticed you were not in our database for potential clients, so if you ever wanted to hear in more detail how our “system” is effective but not new, we would be happy to connect with you directly.
Wishing you the absolute best on your journey with real estate investing, regardless of which strategy you are using!
- Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 911 votes2y
Quote from @Simon Ashbaugh:
Quote from @Sean Lemon:
Looking for some first hand experience about this program. As someone who works long hours and shift work, I love the idea of someone else vetting the deals for me. The hardest part for me is finding the time to locate and analyze deals while working my “9-5” and trying to be a present husband and father. Was looking for some honest reviews from anyone who’s bought in to this system. I understand there is a 15k initiation fee and $200 monthly. That doesn’t bother me. It’s worth it if they’re actually finding, sending me deals, introducing me to lenders and contractors. I see where it could save me years of experience. Thanks everyone.
I havent bought it but i think you can get better margins without paying all those fees. A good realtor should be able to find good deals but at the end of the day its up to you to do the DD and run your numbers. No one can do it for you or youll get screwed. If you dont have time to do that buy a long term rental. If you dont have time for THAT... put it in the S&P
Hey Simon, Antoine here (the owner of FlipSystem and MartelTurnkey). We absolutely agree that a good realtor is completely necessary as part of your “on the ground” team. Finding deals (which a good agent can definitely help out with) is step one, but we find that a lot of investors struggle with the next 3-5 steps of a successful project which includes team members such as project managers, contractors, property managers, insurance agents, lenders, etc. Our goal at FlipSystem is to coach students through the entire process of multiple projects at a time from acquisition to exit, which is where our students value our system over just reaching out to a single agent to help them find deals and then reaching a roadblock. We agree that our fee structure would not be worth it if all we did was simply find deals for students and then let them figure out the rest on their own.
To your point about the individual investor doing their due diligence, we again completely agree with you. We are very clear with our students that we will help them analyze, suggest, and make recommendations, but that ultimately they are the ones that have to approve the deal and make the investment themselves. We have found that a lot of new investors simply do not know what to look for and when to look for it in terms of due diligence, deal analysis, and the various complications that inevitably come up along the way of a full-cycle real estate investment. By having the students be the ones to actually make the deal and sign off on the due diligence, we find ourselves in much more of a coaching role rather than an investment firm. Our students seem to value the knowledge they learn and ability to use those principles and tools for the rest of their investing journey, whether with FlipSystem or not.
Lastly, we agree that active real estate investing is definitely not for everyone. I actually started out by raising funds from private investors that had no interest in taking the time to learn how to actively invest in real estate themselves, but rather wanted to do so passively. Through my company MartelTurnkey I have been able to sell hundreds of houses to passive investors who are buying long-term rentals as you suggested. On the other hand you have the seasoned investor who has been able to completely quit their W2 job and are full-time real estate investors; these investors typically have built out a team in place and are not limited by the time they have to invest into their venture. At FlipSystem, most of our students start off by falling between those two categories: they want to be more than passive investors, but they do not have the knowledge or skillset to rely solely on real estate investing as their only source of income. Those are the students that we are able to save countless hours and headaches by teaching them how to get started, and then working with them individually to scale up to multiple projects a month using the same methods I discussed in my recent Bigger Pockets episode to successfully micro-flip hundreds of houses.I agree wholeheartedly—real estate demands dedication and a willingness to learn. Yet, for those out there itching to dive into real estate without connections, without a mentor, feeling a bit lost navigating the maze of learning curves, we're here to offer support. We admittedly are not a good fit for everyone, but for those that want to learn and scale quickly, we believe we have a strong value proposition to help them achieve those goals.
I wish you well on your real estate journey!
- Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 911 votes2y
Quote from @Jordan Hunter:
I join Flip System early this year, I would like to say they are over exaggerated on they advertisement and whatever you paid have 0 guarantee!
When you trying to work with them and buy their services, they will asking you to pay $15K to join, and you'll have to sign an “Agreement”, basically the “Agreement” is a disclaimer, they don’t take any responsibility on their advertisement!(Scam alert or not? Make your own judgement, I will just keep neutral here and state my experience only)
Their “Exaggerated Advertisement” which only show off the success case but never mentioned about the failed cases (which probably will be count more over the success cases)1.They promote that most of their clients(Or they like call them “”Student”) make a bout $10K to $30K per deal.
But the reality is they have 0 guarantee on it, you most likely will lose your some money on your deals or spend $150Hr/projects make nothing. During my 6 months using their services, I lose $15K on one deal, make almost 0 on another deal, make $10k on the last deal. I found out, it is worthless to me to invest in this way. I spend $400Hr+ to manage these three projects and end up losing $5K (Plus $15K I paid them, and their service charge of total about $4K), so I lost about $25K and my 400Hr time. It just not working for me, unless I can really get access to really low price deals but unfortunately all the deals they sourcing to me is whatever I can find on Zillow.
2.They promote they will have their agents to help you, their investors to fund you, their contractor to help you rehab the property
Hmm… Isn’t it free to find some agent on Bigger Pockets(Maybe you can interview 100 if you like)? And isn’t it tons of Capital trying to lend money to you? Or millions of worker out there if you give them a project to do?
On my experience, their agent really treat me as a “student”, had very bad attitude towards me, I end up spend sometime on bigger pockets to find some other agents. Their lender, mostly like is a Broker, charges me 3.5% points fees(Why I just not directly contact a lender that only charges 2% points?), their contractor charges 30% more than other contractor in the area, which is main reason first 2 of the deals I did there not profitable (I’m just too native and, trust all the words from their agent…)3.In their advertisement, they said Martel did over 1,000 flips
I bet that may not be true, but I have no clue, if FlipSystem you wanna sue me on this, let's proof it!
4.They guarantee you, you will have your first offer accepted in first 30 or 45 days I believe
Come on… There are millions of listing in the mid-west region, all their listings are from Zillow… Basically everybody can do that by themself…
The biggest point is, all the houses in these regions are old houses with tons of issues… I bought a house with crack foundation, that fix costs me $12k…(All because I trust the Agent telling me the contractor will help us to do the inspection and we save that $500 inspection fees)So buying a houses in these regions are really easy, it is just there, the biggest thing is you need to have the team and source to inspect these property and fix the problem on the property.
Unfortunately, in FlipSystem’s advertisement they never mention this part, that’s like putting the inexperienced people into the big RISK!…Which I against the way they operating the business, because people will have more trouble in their life because of these.
Overall there are many “Too good to be true” advertisement they published everywhere, but the reality after I used it, I just felt like not really is what it is sound like. And they will char your money directly from getting your checking number from your bank account, and with the agreement you had with them, it is almost 0% chance you can get refunded. I don’t wanna say anything on that, but from the real process flow, they designed the payment process intentionally to block you from get refund if you are not happy or losing money in the investment…
In summary:
FlipSystem uses exaggerated advertisement but not taking any responsibility on the paid customer. (Which is literally on the contract they asked every client to sign), their services not worth the amount they asking, they don’t have too much stuff besides that you can get from free on Bigger Pockets or Zillow…
I bet not only me who lost some investment in FlipSystem, but the thing is if you post any negative messages inside their Discord Channel, you will either get a delete, block of message or even kicked out of the Discord, that’s what I see from my friend's case, that’s why I didn’t say anything inside their discord group, because it is useless.
Hey Jordan, Antoine here (the owner of FlipSystem and MartelTurnkey).
We took a really deep dive into our records, and we don’t have any information on your membership or direct paid involvement in FlipSystem. We're genuinely sorry to hear about your experience, but it seems there might have been some confusion or misunderstanding here.
We always strive to ensure a positive experience for all who engage with us, and it’s disheartening to hear about any negativity that might be associated with our name, especially if there hasn’t been an actual connection. It's crucial for us to address these concerns, as they affect our reputation, which we hold dear. Your feedback matters, and we genuinely want to ensure it accurately reflects our services. I would encourage you to reach out directly and we can clear up any discrepancies or circumstances in which we may have not fulfilled our obligations to you. I look forward to hearing from you, until then I wish you all the best in your real estate investing.
- Rental Property Investor · San Francisco Bay Area · Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes2y
Quote from @Antoine Martel:
Quote from @Becca F.:
On Martel's FlipSystem site, it says people make $10,000 to $20,000 per deal after expenses. I think most of his flips are in inexpensive cities like Cleveland, Detroit area, etc.
I think $10,000 to $20,000 (before IRS taxes) is a really small profit margin. If the house takes longer than anticipated to sell, that $10,000 could go to $5000 or $0 quickly. Holding costs (insurance for vacant property, utilities, and interest payments for Hard Money Loans) can eat up your profits. Then if it doesn't sell, I would assume the exit strategy is to hold it as rental? When I was considering doing a flip, I was looking at least minimum $40,000 profit margin in the Midwest when I did the deal analysis. I wouldn't go through all that trouble to make $10,000 to $20,000 but I guess that amount is acceptable to some people.
I know a few successful flippers and they're in the San Francisco Bay Area - their profit is at least $200,000 to over a $1 million. I've talked to several investors and they'll tell me how they did their flips and not charge me $15,000 lol :)
Hey Becca, Antoine here (the owner of FlipSystem), we absolutely agree with your own assertion that there are numerous profitable strategies in real estate investing. As you mentioned in your reply post, you are looking for $40k minimum profit, but also know people that have done over $1,000,000 in profit. Over our 10+ years in the industry we have seen data that there is an almost unlimited high-end profit margin, but we also feel there is a relatively untapped and large inventory of lower profit flips available that most investors are not focusing on (that have multiple risk mitigation measures in place as well).
I hope this paints a clearer picture of why we focus on low-cost micro-flips across the Midwest rather than swinging for grand slams on the more expensive markets. ! A bunch of base hits, or one big grand slam, will all equal up to wins in the end, we rather just not risk swinging and missing big.
Our goal is to find the balance of profit, risk, and consistency. The potential in the Bay Area or other coastal markets is massive, but we have seen the risk is also high and the consistency for the average investor can be low. Building out a system of consistent deal flow for $200,000+ profit single-family flips is not something the average investor is realistically going to achieve in a lifetime.
Instead we focus on building out a system that is setup to handle multiple projects at a time, with multiple feature deals in the pipeline ready to go once capital is available again. Some people like to bet big and potentially lose big, we prefer to place medium size bets and consistently win more modest rewards.
By primarily investing in properties with an all-in cost under $100,000, we often have multiple viable exit strategies in case the original one does not work out (we don’t pretend to have a guaranteed crystal ball, but we do like to have options at the end, and we find that our students do as well!) Most deals that are predicted to have a $50,000+ profit in more expensive markets only have one viable exit strategy, and if the market shifts during the holding period, there is often very little that investors can do to quickly pivot.
There are tons of ways to succeed in real estate, and I’m not here to shut down anyone’s path.
We would love to connect with you about our investing strategy and why we think there is so much risk-adjusted opportunity in micro-flipping. Feel free to reach out to me directly to carry on the conversation or check out episode 878 on Bigger Pockets where I discuss in more detail some of the above benefits to micro-flipping https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/real-estate-878I appreciate your feedback Antoine. I agree that there are numerous ways to invest in real estate: mobile home parks, self-storage, syndications, STR, MTR, LTR, flipping etc.
I've decided flipping isn't for me in any location. I attempted 2 flips in the Indianapolis area - seller refused to accept a lower offer and the other one the renovation costs were going to be way over after the inspection report. I definitely don't have the risk tolerance to try to flip in the Bay Area although I knew a few people doing this.
I also did get on a call with your mom about Martel Turnkey properties. I went with Indianapolis area because I used to live there (moved back to CA, don't like winters) so I knew the market. I felt that I would have had to do months of research on the cities Martel Turnkey was investing in. I bought 2 Class C homes in Indy - they were renovated by the sellers not me. Interestingly the first one is having issues, tenant calling in 6 times in 7 months for repairs after minor repairs were done after a full inspection (before tenant moved in). I'm losing money $300 to $700 (with the last rent) each month on what was supposed to positive cash flow $176 a month on paper at 6.99% interest rate. Hopefully this is just first year challenges and not will be going on for years 2, 3 etc. I'm trying to problem solve this with my property manager. What type of checks and balances does Martel Turnkey offer for OOS investors? (This is kind of getting off topic from flipping).
At this point I will just stick with my 2 Bay Area properties and 1 Class A Indy suburb home (the one I lived in and rented out), not sure if I will buy anymore OOS. For me, it's just difficult to invest OOS, can't check up on a property every week that's 2000 miles away and it's extremely stressful for me.
- Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 911 votes2y
Quote from @Sean Lemon:
Looking for some first hand experience about this program. As someone who works long hours and shift work, I love the idea of someone else vetting the deals for me. The hardest part for me is finding the time to locate and analyze deals while working my “9-5” and trying to be a present husband and father. Was looking for some honest reviews from anyone who’s bought in to this system. I understand there is a 15k initiation fee and $200 monthly. That doesn’t bother me. It’s worth it if they’re actually finding, sending me deals, introducing me to lenders and contractors. I see where it could save me years of experience. Thanks everyone.
Hey Sean, Antoine here (the owner of FlipSystem and MartelTurnkey). I know your original question was posted over 6 months ago, and I hope you were able to start/grow your real estate portfolio during that time. I wanted to take a minute to let you know a little bit more about how our system may be a good fit for you (admittedly we are not the right fit for everybody—so many different ways for investors to make money in this industry).
You mentioned that you love the idea of someone vetting deals for you, as you are restricted on time. The majority of deals our students close on are ones that our team originally vetted and then set to the student through our portal. Our full-time acquisition team goes through every on-market property that comes available in our markets and only sends the ones that when preliminarily analyzed make sense for our system, so that you are not spending hours going through hundreds of properties a week that would never meet the criteria needed to successfully micro flip (like I discussed on my recent Bigger Pocket episode). We then set you up with a team on the ground (consisting of an agent, project manager, general contractor, and property manager) who you will leverage to verify or change our initial numbers as needed; they have hyper-local and real-time knowledge that is invaluable to reducing your required input time and reducing your risk. Our internal team is there to help you review rehab bids, inspection reports, analyze different exit strategies based on your updated numbers throughout the project, and help you work with different lenders and insurance agents that we refer you to.You hit the nail on the head with the value we are trying to provide; a fee in exchange for saving an investor potentially years of headaches and lost opportunity going through team after team until they find the right fit. Our teams have collectively helped us complete over 650 flips at MartelTurnkey, so they are well versed in exactly what we are trying to accomplish with our students. I personally do not have a wife or kids yet, but I appreciate your desire to place time with them as your greatest goal. If you are interested in hearing more about how FlipSystem might be able to help you achieve that goal, please feel free to reach out to me directly.
- Rental Property Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 911 votes2y
Quote from @Becca F.:
Quote from @Antoine Martel:
Quote from @Becca F.:
On Martel's FlipSystem site, it says people make $10,000 to $20,000 per deal after expenses. I think most of his flips are in inexpensive cities like Cleveland, Detroit area, etc.
I think $10,000 to $20,000 (before IRS taxes) is a really small profit margin. If the house takes longer than anticipated to sell, that $10,000 could go to $5000 or $0 quickly. Holding costs (insurance for vacant property, utilities, and interest payments for Hard Money Loans) can eat up your profits. Then if it doesn't sell, I would assume the exit strategy is to hold it as rental? When I was considering doing a flip, I was looking at least minimum $40,000 profit margin in the Midwest when I did the deal analysis. I wouldn't go through all that trouble to make $10,000 to $20,000 but I guess that amount is acceptable to some people.
I know a few successful flippers and they're in the San Francisco Bay Area - their profit is at least $200,000 to over a $1 million. I've talked to several investors and they'll tell me how they did their flips and not charge me $15,000 lol :)
Hey Becca, Antoine here (the owner of FlipSystem), we absolutely agree with your own assertion that there are numerous profitable strategies in real estate investing. As you mentioned in your reply post, you are looking for $40k minimum profit, but also know people that have done over $1,000,000 in profit. Over our 10+ years in the industry we have seen data that there is an almost unlimited high-end profit margin, but we also feel there is a relatively untapped and large inventory of lower profit flips available that most investors are not focusing on (that have multiple risk mitigation measures in place as well).
I hope this paints a clearer picture of why we focus on low-cost micro-flips across the Midwest rather than swinging for grand slams on the more expensive markets. ! A bunch of base hits, or one big grand slam, will all equal up to wins in the end, we rather just not risk swinging and missing big.
Our goal is to find the balance of profit, risk, and consistency. The potential in the Bay Area or other coastal markets is massive, but we have seen the risk is also high and the consistency for the average investor can be low. Building out a system of consistent deal flow for $200,000+ profit single-family flips is not something the average investor is realistically going to achieve in a lifetime.
Instead we focus on building out a system that is setup to handle multiple projects at a time, with multiple feature deals in the pipeline ready to go once capital is available again. Some people like to bet big and potentially lose big, we prefer to place medium size bets and consistently win more modest rewards.
By primarily investing in properties with an all-in cost under $100,000, we often have multiple viable exit strategies in case the original one does not work out (we don’t pretend to have a guaranteed crystal ball, but we do like to have options at the end, and we find that our students do as well!) Most deals that are predicted to have a $50,000+ profit in more expensive markets only have one viable exit strategy, and if the market shifts during the holding period, there is often very little that investors can do to quickly pivot.
There are tons of ways to succeed in real estate, and I’m not here to shut down anyone’s path.
We would love to connect with you about our investing strategy and why we think there is so much risk-adjusted opportunity in micro-flipping. Feel free to reach out to me directly to carry on the conversation or check out episode 878 on Bigger Pockets where I discuss in more detail some of the above benefits to micro-flipping https://www.biggerpockets.com/blog/real-estate-878I appreciate your feedback Antoine. I agree that there are numerous ways to invest in real estate: mobile home parks, self-storage, syndications, STR, MTR, LTR, flipping etc.
I've decided flipping isn't for me in any location. I attempted 2 flips in the Indianapolis area - seller refused to accept a lower offer and the other one the renovation costs were going to be way over after the inspection report. I definitely don't have the risk tolerance to try to flip in the Bay Area although I knew a few people doing this.
I also did get on a call with your mom about Martel Turnkey properties. I went with Indianapolis area because I used to live there (moved back to CA, don't like winters) so I knew the market. I felt that I would have had to do months of research on the cities Martel Turnkey was investing in. I bought 2 Class C homes in Indy - they were renovated by the sellers not me. Interestingly the first one is having issues, tenant calling in 6 times in 7 months for repairs after minor repairs were done after a full inspection (before tenant moved in). I'm losing money $300 to $700 (with the last rent) each month on what was supposed to positive cash flow $176 a month on paper at 6.99% interest rate. Hopefully this is just first year challenges and not will be going on for years 2, 3 etc. I'm trying to problem solve this with my property manager. What type of checks and balances does Martel Turnkey offer for OOS investors? (This is kind of getting off topic from flipping).
At this point I will just stick with my 2 Bay Area properties and 1 Class A Indy suburb home (the one I lived in and rented out), not sure if I will buy anymore OOS. For me, it's just difficult to invest OOS, can't check up on a property every week that's 2000 miles away and it's extremely stressful for me.
Hey Becca. Definitely glad to hear that you were able to learn early on that flipping may not be for you. Regardless of the many systems and procedures we have in place at FlipSystem and MartelTurnkey, there is admittedly still inherent risk and unknowns to any type of real estate investing (at least the ones that have the potential to generate more than a couple % return a year like most of our successful students do). As you mentioned, we have also seen first hand and through our students that it typically takes a few offers to get the ball rolling, and then there is a bit of a snowball effect once you get into the process of making multiple offers a week, that will lead to a more consistent pipeline that can be scaled into a full-time job if you choose to.
MartelTurnkey buys houses and tests out the teams on the ground with our own funds and portfolio before letting out clients go through and use those teams on the ground. My team and I have calls with these boots on the ground teams as well as our clients to gauge how much success they’re having and where we might need to adjust and grow. As to your point about first year hurdles; yes it is important to keep in mind that property ownership is really a long-term game. Flipping of course can alleviate some of those concerns, but long-term wealth creation for most people will be done through long-term property ownership (some of our students at FlipSystem who have had success flipping are now using those profits to roll over into long-term rentals as well so they can benefit from some of the tax benefits and appreciation of property ownership).
A collection of 3 properties, especially 2 in the Bay Area (I’m assuming those are definitely not cheap), is an amazing start to a portfolio! Much like flipping or any other strategy, out of state investing has pros and cons, and is not a good fit for everyone. Personally I would rather spend time finding more deals, sourcing financing, and building a solid team, than I would going to physically check on my properties myself and deal with potential maintenance issues. Some of our students have discovered that they would agree with you in that they like to physically touch, see, and feel their investment, and are ok with owning just a couple of units. Other students that have scaled their portfolios quite a bit have learned to let their team handle the day to day hurdles of portfolio management (you still need to keep them accountable of course), so they can focus on some of the more growth focused tasks. Regardless of your strategy, I’m glad to hear you are invested into several properties, and hope you can continue to growth that portfolio whether it is in or out of state. Please reach out directly if I can help you further.
