Too many Gurus...

Too many Gurus...

High School Teacher · Pima, AZ · Member since 2015 · 65 posts · 49 votes

This post is more of a pondering than a question... I was thinking this morning, after getting my 30th email from one "guru" or another trying to sell me a system or information.

Here are a few of the systems I have looked at:

  1. Cameron Dunlap - Some good information, a pretty decent platform with iFlip, but WAY too much money for what they are offering. Seriously, $97 per month to have them host your URLthat you have to buy and then they only allow you to have 2 subdomains on your account. GoDaddy (or any other) .com runs approx $15/year, Zoho mail will let you use their mail for FREE with your URL so you can have you @yourdomain .com from them for no additional cost, up to 10 users... heck they even let you customize it with your own logos and offer a custom login screen mail.yourdomain.com with your logo... The real benefit that I see with the iFlip is the CRM and the Lead manager, pretty nice, but you can use the BP calculators to do much of the same things for leads... $1000 for "No Fee" Transactional Funding" and $297 so he can sell you a $50 Financial Calculator and a walkthrough that you can find on YouTube... If you don't know how to do TVM calculations there are even quick apps for your phones that do them without the convoluted calculator steps and they are at most $14.99.
  2. Cody Sperber, the "Clever Investor" - He is pretty clever, at picking your pockets. The "all new" M5 system uses an integration of Instapage (free and pay options) and Podio (free) they also use an SMS integrator etc... could be a really powerful system if they actually trained you how to use it effectively. Not worth the money otherwise.
  3. Capital Rehab Group - Their $47 DVD set including the "vault" of private lenders and the "7 House Flipping Secrets They Don't Want You to Know About" is a total joke... Their approach can be summed up this way: Step 1: Find a cheap house on the MLS. Step 2: Paint and Cosmetic repairs. Step 3: Sell on MLS below market value. (there I just saved you $47 dollars) The "vault" is a reprint from a service like "Private Money Goldmine." The so-called "7 secrets" are all on YouTube and in BP... nothing new just repackaged claptrap.
  4. Preston Ely - what is there to say?... it was a joke.
  5. Private Money Goldmine - This is essentially a list of Hard Money Lenders, my favorite was Steve Snyder, I tried contacting him via their information - yeah, wasn't until I found him here on bigger pockets that we actually connected.
  6. Kent Clothier - Great idea, quite expensive. I understand this guy really is active and he is the brains behind Memphis Invest... He has even done a podcast on the science of flipping episodes 58 & 64. My bog problem with his program is the $1495 price tag though the $199 annual fee seems reasonable enough. They do offer a 30-day money back guarantee though I am oft leery of programs that cost a fortune and offer to give you your money back...

There are more but these are the most active at the moment as far as I can tell...

All told I think it is quite possible that these "Gurus" make much of their money from selling information and peddling dreams more that they do in Real Estate. They each claim that their programs cost them 10's of thousands of dollars to create and therefore, you are getting an amazing deal... but even it cast them $100,000 to create the system, they sell is at $1000, after 100 suckers, I mean customers, they are breaking even... Because they hype the systems and talk a smooth game, they will easily outperform their $100,000 every couple months, and the hoops that you need to jump through to get a refund leave many unsatisfied and frustrated without their refunds. Think about it... 500 people sign up a year, that is half a million in revenues without working more than a few days a year... No properties to flip, rehab or rent, no contractors, tenants or other annoyances to bother you... just cashing fat checks every month... And that is not even counting the 50/50 split money from deals done by students after they pay upwards of $20,000 for "Mentoring."

Be careful out there... 

~James

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Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
10y

There are good teachers out there, and slime artists.

Here are "gurus" I like

1. Peter Conti and David Finkel - Lease Purchase

2. Bill Bronchick - Flipping and Asset Protection

3. Alan Cowgill - Private Lending and SEC regs

4. Peter Fortunato, Jack Miller, Bill Tan, Jimmy Napier and John Schaub - Creative Financing

5. @J Scott Jay The Fixer DeCima and Pete Youngs - Rehabbing

6. Wendy Patton, Ron Le Grand, Bill Bronchick and Matthew Chan - Lease Options

7. www.Trustetc.com

www.PenscoTrust.com

Custodians for Private Lending

8. @John Fedro

@Ken Rishel

Mobile Homes

@Jay Hinrichs

Transactional Funding

@Bill Gulley - Legal Deal Making

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    10y

    @James Wheeler you hit the nail on the head, they make money telling you how to make money. They don't make money in the actual profession. Otherwise, realistically if you where making millions in real-estate, why would you work so hard to sell a program for others to make money? I know, they would say they care about you and want to help others become successful, blah blah blah.

  • Professional · Columbus, OH · Member since 2015 · 119 posts · 37 votes
    10y

    @James Wheeler

    I doubt they have $100K in production, most of what they are pitching is the same thing. Just need to rebrand and sell. There is a ton of cross marketing between them. That is why they will have "introductory" or "one time specials" at $97.

    I have no idea how many Guru's there are, at one point I was watching over 40 separate Guru's.

  • Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    There are good teachers out there, and slime artists.

    Here are "gurus" I like

    1. Peter Conti and David Finkel - Lease Purchase

    2. Bill Bronchick - Flipping and Asset Protection

    3. Alan Cowgill - Private Lending and SEC regs

    4. Peter Fortunato, Jack Miller, Bill Tan, Jimmy Napier and John Schaub - Creative Financing

    5. @J Scott Jay The Fixer DeCima and Pete Youngs - Rehabbing

    6. Wendy Patton, Ron Le Grand, Bill Bronchick and Matthew Chan - Lease Options

    7. www.Trustetc.com

    www.PenscoTrust.com

    Custodians for Private Lending

    8. @John Fedro

    @Ken Rishel

    Mobile Homes

    @Jay Hinrichs

    Transactional Funding

    @Bill Gulley - Legal Deal Making

  • Investor · Kerrville, TX · Member since 2015 · 53 posts · 72 votes
    10y

    I used to know a guy who was part of a touring group of get-rich-quick "gurus."  After he quit in disgust, he told me some backstage stories about some of the speakers.

    He said one of them had an introduction that went, "Ladies and gentlemen, now presenting XXXXXXX, who has made millions with what he is about to reveal to you."

    All the gurus laughed at that intro, because the inside joke was -- and the guy being introduced wrote it that way with this in mind -- that what he made millions on, what he "revealed," is how to buy his $25,000 "coaching" and "boot camp."

    He also told me of another con man named (oh, how I wish I could name him, but I don't want to get sued).  This guru switched from pitching home study courses on real estate and notes to "subliminal" audio downloads and CDs on a variety of self-help topics:   losing weight, getting to sleep, kicking alcohol and drugs, etc.  The subliminal messages were buried in soft static.

    He asked him why he switched from real estate, and the guy confided, "Simple.  I don't have to do any work at all.  The downloads and CDs are just a bunch of static."

    BTW James, I've been in real estate and notes for 30+ years, and most of the gurus are like the crooks I just described.  There are only a few with the heart of a teacher and who have earned the right to teach by practicing what they preach.   And they charge a fraction of what others charge for far better information. (When it comes  to real estate and note education, my working principle is, the more they charge the less it is worth.)  

    I, along with thousands of others, heartily recommend John Schaub (who, with his partner the late Jack Miller, taught the first seminars on single family house investing) and Peter Fortunato (the undisputed master of creative finance -- as Jack used to say, "Pete is the comet and we're just trying to hang on to the tail.")

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    @James Wheeler yes there are to many gurus. The barrier to entry in  the guru business is very low. So any one can become a guru. I am constantly seeing requests for information about new gurus here that I have never heard of. Many of them are incredibly skilled at manipulative techniques to get you to buy their programs. 

    That said I am a big believer in investing in myself and my education. I have spent a LOT of money on  courses, seminars, boot camps etc. 

    Personally I don't think that is expensive at all relative the the prices of material out there. If you are a successful business person, then that is not a lot to be reinvesting in your business.

    The problem with gurus is you don't know if they are any good until after you have spent the money.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Fair Lawn NJ · Member since 2016 · 382 posts · 87 votes
    10y
    Great information for newbies! Thank you
  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    @Brian Gibbons

    LOL, how did I get in a guru conversation? 

    And why has someone mentioned another person as the "master" of creative financing, while I'm still alive as the Lord of Finance, the Prince of Equity, the Coral Wreath of Collateral, the Intuitive Integral Investment Instigator, the Money Master of the Universe and the Pinnacle of Principal ?  I mean really, all I get is how to do it lawfully? 

    Really, creative financing, like buying 750 K in land, getting the seller to throw in development funds of 150K, then buying me a new truck and giving me management with a golden parachute of 40K a year for 10 years......really? Brian, I'm being compared to amateurs ? 

    You can do better than that Brian!

    BTW, I had some issues on 2 computers with malware, low life *#*s, but had my tech guy fix everything, so.....I'm Baaaack! :)              

  • Rental Property Investor · NH · Member since 2015 · 77 posts · 16 votes
    10y

    This was a great read. I too have spent thousands. Some were very valuable. Never did the mentoring mainly because I didnt have the money BUT each time found out I didnt need mentoring from that GURU. I could find someone at my local REIA. As I continue to get flooded with NEW info. (This may help someone who is new to looking at all the Gurus...) When I get a new email for the newest best program/education. I start my research. Google them. Youtube them. Realestatemadeeasy. And most recent for me BiggerPockets!

    Anyone heard of or used YELLOWLETTERCOMPLETE for mailing yellow letters including leads. $1.19 a piece?

    Looking for a mailing company.

    Thanks

    Mary 

  • Real Estate Broker · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Bill Gulley:

    @Brian Gibbons

    LOL, how did I get in a guru conversation? 

    And why has someone mentioned another person as the "master" of creative financing, while I'm still alive as the Lord of Finance, the Prince of Equity, the Coral Wreath of Collateral, the Intuitive Integral Investment Instigator, the Money Master of the Universe and the Pinnacle of Principal ?  I mean really, all I get is how to do it lawfully? 

    Really, creative financing, like buying 750 K in land, getting the seller to throw in development funds of 150K, then buying me a new truck and giving me management with a golden parachute of 40K a year for 10 years......really? Brian, I'm being compared to amateurs ? 

    You can do better than that Brian!

    BTW, I had some issues on 2 computers with malware, low life *#*s, but had my tech guy fix everything, so.....I'm Baaaack! :)              

     I'd missed you. Thought that it was weird that you were quiet for so many days! 

  • Investor from San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 14 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    My first purchase was the Carlton Sheets program. Cost me $ 295.00. I think it was a good investment. Gave me the knowledge and courage to go out and purchase my first home. I still have it in my Real Estate library and refer to it from time to time. I have to give him props most of the information on creative offers and financing are still relevant now.

    I do agree that most Real Estate Guru's are rip off artist. Their are some good programs out their that can get you started for a couple of hundred verses thousands. I think you are basically paying for the packaging for these programs. Today with so much FREE information on literally every subject under the sun there is no need to pay for information.

  • Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Bill Gulley

    Welcome back, Sensei.

    Bill,

    I will gladly pay you for a TIC course.

    WHERE IS THE LINK!

    and I should have said,

    "The Master of Disaster, 

    The King of Sting, 

    The Dancing Destroyer, 

    The Prince of Punch, and

    The Count of Monte Fisto

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    10y

    @Brian Gibbons

    Guess I'm coming across like an MMA fighter, LOL. 

    My TIC course is at the "legal" review stage. I'm communicating with probably the best TIC operations attorney in the country (I'll introduce him later), his firm deals mainly with conversions of larger complexes and HOAs and works nationally and on an international scale. $$$$$!

    While those seminar types show a disclaimer about "you can't trust any of this and see your attorney and tax adviser, I'm more compliant and try to ensure several aspects of instructional advice. 1. legal and ethical, 2. reproducible, 3. profitable, 4. manageable 5. flexible and adaptable to investment strategies. I don't do brain dumps of crazy ideas and spin any product out.  

    @Ryan Dossey  and everyone;

    All the information you need is on line and most all of it is free (now)! I probably have the most sensitive BS Meter on BP, or in the real estate education arena, it just comes from experience, investigators assume there is wrong doing until proven otherwise, with gurus, none have passed scrutiny yet. If there is any "trick" to getting good and reliable information, it's in knowing where to look! 

    My guess is that if these gurus say they have had legal reviews of their materials, it was to CYA themselves and not as to the stuff they produce.

    Ideas are fine, understand too that in real estate, there is nothing "new" it will always be basic strategies, approaches or tactics employed regardless of the name something may be called at any time. Motivational speakers are different, still the psychology is the same, the fearful and lazy might be better served seeing a shrink.  

    IMO, nothing as an education in real estate is worth thousands of dollars for any one course, system, method or tactic. Most get suckered by associating a high price with quality, that is a very bad assumption in real estate. If anything is more than $500.00, you better investigate it yourself before you dive in.  

    A comment as to costs of providing education, to give a quality education that is lawful, ethical, profitable and doable it takes more than one person spouting off! It costs some real money to put a team of advisers together, university administrators, teachers in specialty areas of business, legal council, a CPA, special software built for educational development, technical support and (thousands of) hours of coordination and management as well as content development before the doors are opened. Other people have to be paid, everyone doesn't work out of devotion and compassion!  So, it depends on where you go to get a private education, if you're looking at just one person with an assistant and a sales force, you're looking in the wrong place. :)      

  • Linda WeygantPro Member
    Investor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    I have a friend and client that was on the real estate guru circuit for many years.  I've done his tax returns since 2003, so I know exactly how much he made between actual real estate and speaking and, while some years were better than others, by far the money was made in speaking fees.

    He quit in disgust after five years and went back to flipping only.  He was cynical and jaded over the techniques of the "team" of people he was touring with, but thing that frustrated him, time after time was this:

    He'd see the same students showing up, time after time, constantly and frequently - notebooks in hand and stars in their eyes.  Over the years, 90% of the people had done exactly ZERO deals.  They were seminar junkies.  They were scared to death to pull the trigger until they knew EVERYTHING.  But there was no way they could learn everything, so they just kept attending seminar after seminar.

    He said that he was speaking at a seminar and then talking to a woman that he'd spoken with many times over the years.  She jokingly said that she could have bought two houses for cash with the amount of money she'd spent in seminars over the last four years while she was studying to become a real estate investor.  Now she was ready to jump in and finally do her first deal because she needed to save her own home from foreclosure.  She didn't see the irony in her statement.

    My friend left the business later that same year.

    When I first met him, I told him that I was looking for a property to buy and rent.  He was dubious, but was too polite to actually roll his eyes at me.  Now that I own seven, he calls me Linda, Fearless Woman of Action!  He said that what I had done - jumping in without going to one single seminar and just figuring it out, is what most of his students could have done and should have done, but wouldn't do because of fear.

    He has tens of thousands of dollars of product from other gurus that he kept wanting me to borrow from him.  I listened to two CDs and then politely said "no thanks".  

  • Real Estate Agent · Virginia Beach, VA · Member since 2015 · 14 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    I agree that there are too many people out there that claim to be a "guru". In fact the only requirement is for someone to stand up and say "I'm a Guru!" Then put junk out.

    I just want to thank @Brian Gibbons for the list of people who are actually worthwhile to learn something from. It takes allot of time to vet a person to see if what they say is worth the time it took to listen.

  • Investor · Sherman Oaks, CA · Member since 2008 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Andrew Goude

    You are welcome, If I can ever help you out please let me know.

    Brian

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Linda Weygant  Exact same thing can be said for on line sites like BP... 90% of those that troll these sites will do EXACTLY nothing.. but at least it was free !!.

    I have seen students from gurus be massively successful  ( I know I fund them)

    and I have seen a few BP trained folks do OK ( I know I fund them)

    Most of my top producers though learned it more organically and or through having RE licenses and working their way up in the industry and truly understanding it.. kind of like what Bill preach's

    If you have the disposable cash paying for training is fine.. I do think the one on one mentor types that you spend 30 to 50k a year on are better than any of the others.. these folks only take on 5 to 10 students.. they make a nice living and they give you a lot of quality time and help you build a business from scratch in a year or so.. that could take you much longer if your just reading about it and fumbling around trying to get folks to teach it to you for free... I know many who have done this.

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Calgary, Alberta · Member since 2016 · 62 posts · 14 votes
    9y

    Just wonted to say thanks to all that posted in here, great info and will probably save a lot of people a lot of money!

  • Member since 2019 · 113 posts · 25 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @James Wheeler:

    This post is more of a pondering than a question... I was thinking this morning, after getting my 30th email from one "guru" or another trying to sell me a system or information.

    Here are a few of the systems I have looked at:

    1. Cameron Dunlap - Some good information, a pretty decent platform with iFlip, but WAY too much money for what they are offering. Seriously, $97 per month to have them host your URLthat you have to buy and then they only allow you to have 2 subdomains on your account. GoDaddy (or any other) .com runs approx $15/year, Zoho mail will let you use their mail for FREE with your URL so you can have you @yourdomain .com from them for no additional cost, up to 10 users... heck they even let you customize it with your own logos and offer a custom login screen mail.yourdomain.com with your logo... The real benefit that I see with the iFlip is the CRM and the Lead manager, pretty nice, but you can use the BP calculators to do much of the same things for leads... $1000 for "No Fee" Transactional Funding" and $297 so he can sell you a $50 Financial Calculator and a walkthrough that you can find on YouTube... If you don't know how to do TVM calculations there are even quick apps for your phones that do them without the convoluted calculator steps and they are at most $14.99.
    2. Cody Sperber, the "Clever Investor" - He is pretty clever, at picking your pockets. The "all new" M5 system uses an integration of Instapage (free and pay options) and Podio (free) they also use an SMS integrator etc... could be a really powerful system if they actually trained you how to use it effectively. Not worth the money otherwise.
    3. Capital Rehab Group - Their $47 DVD set including the "vault" of private lenders and the "7 House Flipping Secrets They Don't Want You to Know About" is a total joke... Their approach can be summed up this way: Step 1: Find a cheap house on the MLS. Step 2: Paint and Cosmetic repairs. Step 3: Sell on MLS below market value. (there I just saved you $47 dollars) The "vault" is a reprint from a service like "Private Money Goldmine." The so-called "7 secrets" are all on YouTube and in BP... nothing new just repackaged claptrap.
    4. Preston Ely - what is there to say?... it was a joke.
    5. Private Money Goldmine - This is essentially a list of Hard Money Lenders, my favorite was Steve Snyder, I tried contacting him via their information - yeah, wasn't until I found him here on bigger pockets that we actually connected.
    6. Kent Clothier - Great idea, quite expensive. I understand this guy really is active and he is the brains behind Memphis Invest... He has even done a podcast on the science of flipping episodes 58 & 64. My bog problem with his program is the $1495 price tag though the $199 annual fee seems reasonable enough. They do offer a 30-day money back guarantee though I am oft leery of programs that cost a fortune and offer to give you your money back...

    There are more but these are the most active at the moment as far as I can tell...

    All told I think it is quite possible that these "Gurus" make much of their money from selling information and peddling dreams more that they do in Real Estate. They each claim that their programs cost them 10's of thousands of dollars to create and therefore, you are getting an amazing deal... but even it cast them $100,000 to create the system, they sell is at $1000, after 100 suckers, I mean customers, they are breaking even... Because they hype the systems and talk a smooth game, they will easily outperform their $100,000 every couple months, and the hoops that you need to jump through to get a refund leave many unsatisfied and frustrated without their refunds. Think about it... 500 people sign up a year, that is half a million in revenues without working more than a few days a year... No properties to flip, rehab or rent, no contractors, tenants or other annoyances to bother you... just cashing fat checks every month... And that is not even counting the 50/50 split money from deals done by students after they pay upwards of $20,000 for "Mentoring."

    Be careful out there... 

    ~James

    Jim, I have no idea about Clothier family's guru stuff. The only thing I know is Memphis Invest is actively buying in my market. 

  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    6y

    An investor sent me this about gurus and it Resonates and is very true

    1. in absence of a product, an idea will usually be sold;

    2. when the idea is lacking, a lifestyle is pushed.

    3 When they don’t have the lifestyle, they often focus on a ‘message’.

    4. When there isn’t much of a message, the fallback is traditional values and leveraging a religious angle.

    When you see investors selling multiple programs such as notes, flipping, subject-to, tax liens etc there is no way on earth they are an expert or investing in all of them.

    You may dabble in each but you will not have a business in each, and if you do I would love to see where they have the time to “train”

    7e investments53 Reviews
  • Flipper/Rehabber · Seattle, WA · Member since 2015 · 333 posts · 459 votes
    6y

    @James Wheeler

    Some successful investors charge to help others. Sometimes it’s not so much for the money but the satisfaction of being of value to other people’s lives. They charge because their time is valuable and too many people would waste their time if they did it for free.I base this on experience, not conjecture.

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