Than Merrill - Wealth Builders Seminar

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Than Merrill - Wealth Builders Seminar

Will Sifert
Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes

opps meant to put "FORTUNE Builders"

I just left the Fortune Builders Seminar in New Orleans, La. It was the free 2 hour seminar. I did some quick research before hand to find out how much the classes would be that they were going to offer at the end (no one does anything for free and you have to be naive to think something can be learned well in a couple hours.) so I was well aware that there was going to be an "up sell" involved. $197 seemed like a reasonable amount of money so I figured I would attend the free seminar and if I liked what they were saying and if it looked like there would be value in learning their system I would spend the $197 to do the 3 day class.

My background: I have very little experience in flipping houses. I was the investor side of a partnership with a contractor, building spec homes until about 4 years. After we stopped building I started buying properties at tax sales. The tax sales only happen once a year so I am looking for something else real estate related that I can do year round. While I have a general knowledge in real estate, I don't know much about REO's, foreclosures or wholesaling so I'm thinking their course would be a good foundation for me to build on. With 3 full days of classes I hope I learn a few things.

Has anyone else attended one of Than Merrill's 3 day classes? I hear the next up sell is the mentor program for $40,000.

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Curt DavisBusiness Member
Flipper/Rehabber · Memphis, TN · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
14y

I think its great when someone can recognize they need the expert advice from someone offering coaching. Coaching can be great but costly. If someone wants someone to take them by the hand and teach them that should come with a price, but how much is that time worth? There is no question that they ( Fortune Builders ) know what they are doing but personally, when you pay $25k-$40k for coaching to have a few 30 minute calls per week for x amount of months, that to me is not real coaching. I tell you what, here are 2 bits of free advice from me that a certain late night infomercial scammer is charging $3,500 for:

1. Build a buyers list
2. go find property.

Now I just saved you $3,500!!

Good luck

Curt Davis - KAIZEN Realty538 Reviews
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  • Will Sifert
    OP
    Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Jerry Kisasonak:
    Will Sifert Thanks for updating us on how it went Will! I think the conversations on BP helped to open your eyes and ears to what the whole gameplan was from the get-go. You're right... many people were not so aware of what the real agenda was. I personally think that they take 10's of thousands of dollars from each of these events and pump it into marketing for their own real estate businesses... Google Adwords, direct mail, etc. They can then say on stage, "I bought and sold 150 homes this year... already! And the year isn't over yet!" Well yeah, if you spend $100K on marketing for your business coupled with systems you're going to find alot of deals and make alot of money. These results, however, are not typical because most people don't have a $100K marketing budget which is funded by pitch-a-thon seminars.

    So if half the time they gave good info, at least you had a day and half of good stuff to walk away with. That seems about right to me. And as for leaving feeling dirty, I know what you're talking about. Although, you could always wait until their sales telemarketers get down to around $4K for the elite and coveted Mastery program. Saving $21K for just keeping your Visa or HELOC checks in your pocket isn't so bad. Actually, if they really wanted to teach good money smarts, that would have been a good place for them to start. If you agree with me, would you raise your hand? (I know you got that joke) LoL : )

    I am always looking for the catch, scam, angle etc. so I was able to figure it out pretty quick.

    What I don't like is that they lied in the first 2 hour free seminar, when they lead you to believe that they make money by helping people through lending money to students who do the deals. I remember them saying " we make more money from lending money to people who do deals then we do from rehabbing houses, so when we teach people how to do this they will likely use us to lend them the money." But the reality is, Fortune builders makes all of their money from getting people to pay them for their classes / mastery program.

    My take on their mastery program for 25K was that you got 6 months of mentoring by one of their workers (not Than). From my research I understand this to be 1 call every couple weeks from the "mentor" to discuss things with you. You also get all of their contracts and template letters to send to people and in touch with a service that handles the mailing for you (at a cost). You are plugged into their marketing system which they grab information from your county's gov website for probate, foreclosure etc and build you a website however they didn't discuss the cost per leads / website and if they were free or not. Also, there is a 1 day event where they meet in your area with all of the new mastery students to go over everything with you in person. There were some cost evaluation systems and some other stuff where you can plug in a zip code and it could tell you how much it cost to replace a roof, flooring etc for a house in that area. There were different events you could attend but you had to travel to them. For example I believe they have a 1 day class on SEO, lol I had to laugh when I heard that. I've been learning SEO for 12 years, you not going to learn much in one day.

    Like other posters said in this thread, everything they offer for 25K you can get from reading and asking questions on biggerpockets, going to your local REIA and trying to find a mentor.

    I think where most people will fail is in marketing. Most people at the 3 day seminar heard the ad on the radio (which is the only place they advertised) and i doubt many, if any of them have a lot of experience online. Marketing (find sellers / buyers) is the key to everything. They also mislead people into thinking you don't need money to do this, so after somebody maxes out every credit card they have to come up with the 25K how they going to afford to buy leads, send out 1000's of letters, hire a secretory (something they tell you do right away.) etc. That 25K would be put to much much better use using it to advertise and do deals.

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  • Jerry Kisasonak
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Mc Keesport, PA · Member since 2012 · 449 posts · 154 votes
    14y

    I totally agree with everything you said Will. I would think for $25K the "mentorship" would be a little more than a coaching call 1 or 2 days a month. There's a wildly successful real estate investors association in Texas that anyone can join for $500. They offer unlimited question and answer - just pick up the phone and call. Of course, their vender list wouldn't help if you're non-local so you'd still have to join your local REIA, but the mentorship alone would be worth it. They also have online training videos to watch at your leisure.

    "You absolutely need money and credit to do real estate... but nobody said that it has to be YOUR money and credit." As you stated, that intro is very misleading when they turn around and ask you for $25K to join. I suppose there is a case to be made that Capital One's money isn't really YOUR money, so go ahead and charge it. I mean, how hard is it to put down a piece of plastic? If you ask me, it's this kind of thinking that keeps bankruptcy attorneys smiling. Oh wait, I forgot that I'm supposed to adhere to a "no negativity" attitude. In that case, I suppose it's my attitude that stinks.

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  • Will Sifert
    OP
    Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes
    14y

    The other thing is that they kept referring to how " you just do 1 wholesale deal and you paid for the program". I am sure some people occasionally make 25K on a wholesale deal, but that has to be far far from the average. From what I have read here 5K - 10K is a lot more common.

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  • Kevin Yeats
    Lender · Fort Pierce, FL · Member since 2009 · 825 posts · 486 votes
    14y

    Interesting.

    I located several offer for the Fortune Builders materials on eBay.

    Starting prices from $52 to about $200.

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  • Jerry Kisasonak
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Mc Keesport, PA · Member since 2012 · 449 posts · 154 votes
    14y

    They told our group that the $25K could be recouped on the first rehab deal, which seems to be more in line with the truth than a wholesale deal.

    Kevin Yeats Yes Kevin you can get the materials on ebay, but then you don't get the once or twice a month coaching call ; )

    I think if someone has half a brain and the drive to succeed they will make this or almost any business work. It's really all the same... find a mentor who has done what you want to do, build a team, take action, evaluate results, consult, readjust, take action, etc. And, as Will stated, be consistent in your marketing throughout all of this.

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  • Will Sifert
    OP
    Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Jerry Kisasonak:
    They told our group that the $25K could be recouped on the first rehab deal, which seems to be more in line with the truth than a wholesale deal.

    Kevin Yeats Yes Kevin you can get the materials on ebay, but then you don't get the once or twice a month coaching call ; )

    I think if someone has half a brain and the drive to succeed they will make this or almost any business work. It's really all the same... find a mentor who has done what you want to do, build a team, take action, evaluate results, consult, readjust, take action, etc. And, as Will stated, be consistent in your marketing throughout all of this.

    They skim over the marketing and very briefly touch on good points like getting probate and foreclosure leads as sources to find sellers or people who do cash sales as sources to find buyers. They talk about how their "search engine" goes to all of the county websites and searches public records to get the leads for you. They mention how they have template letters for you to use and a service that will send them but they don't go over any of the costs involved with doing that. I bet you can hire Michael who posts here cheaper for what fortune builders would charge you for the same service. The point is they do impress people and establish that they can help you get leads, but the same people can do this own their own either by buying leads from a list, going down to the courthouse, or in most places paying a few bucks a month to have access online to that county's records. The people they market to have no clue how to do this own their own, and with out a clue on how to market you dead in the water, so if you are sold on the concept and believe that you need them to do it because you can't figure it out on your own, then those people are much more likely to join.

    I was able to find every source they mentioned plus several more just from reading a couple pinned threads here. I payed $50 a month to get online access to the local clerk of court's website and extracted my own information. It's the people who don't have marketing / online experience that need them but at the same time those same people who are less likely to succeed because of their lack of experience. They are going to rely on Fortune builders for everything (their website and squeeze pages, getting leads, mailing letters etc.) and I'd bet they going to be nickle and dime for everything. So after you pay 25K you going to keep paying a lot more to run your business. So much for sales pitch that you don't need any money to do this. Nothing like running up 25K+ in credit card debt at 20% interest.

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  • Jerry Kisasonak
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Mc Keesport, PA · Member since 2012 · 449 posts · 154 votes
    14y

    They are trying to copy the McDonalds franchise system. They are all about systems, and, becoming a Mastery member is simply part of driving people into that system. (Although they don't point that out) And they have a system for people who don't join... a follow-up down-sell system. I personally think paying $25K is like trying to buy your way to success, although they certainly try to paint things a different way. I'm all for paying for your education... but not drastically overpaying. (But you can get a library card for free and learn all you want. Thank you Mr. Carnegie)

    The whole thing seems kind of contradictory: "Never overpay for a property... only pay 65% ARV or less. But we have this course, which is hundreds of percent above retail. Buy it." How you do one thing is how you do everything as they say...

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  • Will Sifert
    OP
    Investor · Covington, LA · Member since 2012 · 517 posts · 317 votes
    14y
    Originally posted by Jerry Kisasonak:
    They are trying to copy the McDonalds franchise system. They are all about systems, and, becoming a Mastery member is simply part of driving people into that system. (Although they don't point that out) And they have a system for people who don't join... a follow-up down-sell system. I personally think paying $25K is like trying to buy your way to success, although they certainly try to paint things a different way. I'm all for paying for your education... but not drastically overpaying. (But you can get a library card for free and learn all you want. Thank you Mr. Carnegie)

    The whole thing seems kind of contradictory: "Never overpay for a property... only pay 65% ARV or less. But we have this course, which is hundreds of percent above retail. Buy it." How you do one thing is how you do everything as they say...

    There was a lot of contradictions. Always using OPM to do deals, but yet use 25K of your own money before you even do your first deal. It doesn't cost anything to do this.... pay us 25K so we can teach you how to do it. Their stupid exercise on trying to find 40K to fund a "deal", my answer was - go to my hard money lender to get it, which is the wrong answer for them because we all know a hard money lender isn't going to give anyone money for education purposes. It only takes you 5-10 hours a week, hire a secretary to answer the phone for you and do all of the mailings etc.

    " How you do one thing is how you do everything as they say... " I must have heard that 100x.

    I did like the speaker. The exercise where he called people was helpful to show how you talk to people. However the part where he says " i just saved 500K from those 5 phone calls" was really lame. When you call someone that has a house for sale for 1 million and get them down to 900,000 over the phone, you not doing anything that any else could do. When you call people selling 1M+ properties of course you going to get people to drop 50K,100K.

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  • Jerry Kisasonak
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Mc Keesport, PA · Member since 2012 · 449 posts · 154 votes
    14y

    Will Sifert You're right about Mike Q... get with him and he'll help you get everything set up for free. Of course he makes money on the mailers, but nothing at all wrong with that. That's money spend actually promoting your business. It's a win-win. You got a good head on your shoulders... you'll do great with things : )

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  • Russ Beavers
    Elk Grove, CA · Member since 2012 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    13y

    Thanks, you all saved me the time of attending one of these in Sacramento. The way it seems to be advertised in my area suggests that there will be no out of pocket for his "hand picked few" That it's all going to come from his million plus investors. I figured tihs meant I'd just be doing all the dirty work for a small pay off.

    Thanks again,
    Russ

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  • Jerry Kisasonak
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Mc Keesport, PA · Member since 2012 · 449 posts · 154 votes
    13y

    Russ Beavers Will and I both agreed that going to the 3 day seminar was well worth the $200. We both also agreed that the $25,000 Mastery deal is WAY overpriced. If I had to do it over again, I would still have gone to the 3 day event.

    The problem with most of these programs is that alot of people come to them and get the the attitude of "If I pay $25K for your program, will you make my dreams come true?" This is really absurd when stated this way, but in my opinion that's what's really going on. But every man and woman is the captain of their own ship, and success must therefore come from within.

    What really turned me off about the Mastery program is that the guy said "All of our students are successful." I thought, "Really? What about those who try it and decide it's not for them? What about those who have unsupportive family members and friends and the weight of that crushes them? What about those who find something else that they enjoy doing better?" You simply cannot escape the law of averages. Granted, because of the high entry point they are greatly improving their averages, but nevertheless not everyone who joins goes on to great success in real estate. To say so is just plain ignorance of how things work in reality. To be more direct - it's a lie.

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  • Russ Beavers
    Elk Grove, CA · Member since 2012 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    13y

    I can see the use in the 3 day series. But having never been more involved in the housing market than to help a few friends here and there working on the homes they were flipping, a lot of the information would likely not mean anything to me. Also, being disabled, and on a very fixed income, I cant justify 20% of my current monthly imcome on a "maybe". I dont have access to the resources it would seem to require to start this kind of "opportunity". Thank you for the response. I feel the entire thing is misleading. It's centered around wholesale in the advertisement, and really suggests you can sit at home for a few hours a month with no money out of your own pockets. Which would have been great, since I have all the time in the world each day. Thank you again, good luck to you folks on your ventures.

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  • Jerry Kisasonak
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Mc Keesport, PA · Member since 2012 · 449 posts · 154 votes
    13y

    Russ Beavers I understand your situation better now. If you still want to get started you can start by finding deals for investors, A.K.A bird dogging. I pay $1,000 minimum for a lead that result in a deal. Since you have time, you can make calls for an hour or so a day and find sellers who will agree to a discounted price on their property. In other words, you'd be weeding through sellers to find the ones who are motivated. You can find the leads on the internet: craigslist, backpage, for sale by owner websites, etc etc.

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  • Russ Beavers
    Elk Grove, CA · Member since 2012 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    13y

    Thank you Jerry. That sounds like a much smarter way for me to get started. It will take me a few weeks to research the markets in my area. Then I can look for investor types. Thank you again, this helps more than I can express.

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  • Jerry Kisasonak
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Mc Keesport, PA · Member since 2012 · 449 posts · 154 votes
    13y

    Russ Beavers No problem Russ. It may help you also to contact a some investors and find out what they are looking for and in what areas. Then start combing those areas for deals. Keep in mind too that $1,000 finders fee is minimal... you can get $10,000+ on one deal if the property is right and you negotiate a great price with the seller.

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  • Marquelon Sigler
    Birmingham, AL · Member since 2012 · 10 posts · 1 vote
    13y

    New to this forum...but I just spent the last hour or so looking over the various replies. Very good insights but Here's my question. I've registered for the 1st 2 hour session do they even mention anything at all about how to find/connect with the VERY large pool of wealthy cash buyer investors they advertise? Also do they really provide you lists of properties you can target to go after?

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  • Jerry Kisasonak
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Mc Keesport, PA · Member since 2012 · 449 posts · 154 votes
    13y

    Marquelon Sigler The two hour teaser is simply that... it's designed to get you to sign up for the 3 day event. They do not cover any of the "How-to's". Nevertheless, go. It's free. You have nothing to lose. If you like what you hear, sign up for the 3 day. It's worth it too.

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  • Jonathan H.
    Contractor · Pikeville, KY · Member since 2012 · 80 posts · 9 votes
    13y

    I recently heard about the upcoming "free" two hour seminar coming in Charleston WV (near my area) and decided to give it a try. I knew their seminar would have some sort of sales pitch attached, as nothing worth knowing is often truly free (hence how I found this site).

    My question is related to the three day weekend course offered after the "free" seminar. I have always had a strong interest in the real estate market personally, but have literally zero current experience. Some members have described the three day weekend course as being somewhat intense. I know the course is $197 which is a small fee to pay for the potential knowledge, but would it be worth while for someone of my experience level to attend the 3 day course? I'm more worried about the time spent tied-up for the 3 day course rather than the fee charged.

    Thanks in advance.

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  • Jerry Kisasonak
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Mc Keesport, PA · Member since 2012 · 449 posts · 154 votes
    13y

    Jonathan Hazelett It is worth it if you're serious about real estate investing. Since you are brand new to the business, I would suggest reading some sort of real estate investors dictionary. You can probably find some good information by searching "common real estate terms" in google.

    When I went the speakers through around real estate jargon frequently and freely, and I know that there were some people who listened to certain words or terms for an entire day or weekend and had no idea what the speaker was talking about! In fact, I recall someone asking what a certain term meant... and that was after they had used it countless times for two days! You've got to know what ARV, PITI, amortization, and other such terms mean going in. They are not going to stop and break these things down. Hope this helps!

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  • Raymond B.
    FL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 357 votes
    13y

    Jonathan Hazelett,
    If you attend the 3 day seminar, leave all of your Credit Cards, at home!!!

    Raymond

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  • Jerry Kisasonak
    Residential Real Estate Agent · Mc Keesport, PA · Member since 2012 · 449 posts · 154 votes
    13y

    Raymond B. Great point Ray! If you take them they'll want your balances!

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  • Altin Velaj
    Note Investor · garwood, NJ · Member since 2010 · 63 posts · 6 votes
    13y

    Jerry Kisasonak and Will Sifert if it was not Than speaking , who was the speaker on the event. i might know them.

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  • Ed Nunno
    Involved In Real Estate · Staten Island, NY · Member since 2012 · 52 posts · 1 vote
    13y

    oh im very familiar with dare i say these "scumbags" ? that may be a bit harsh but atleast hear me out first. just like you i attended there first "free" course, after all these are the guys from A&E's "flip this house". ok so the first course is over(2-3 hrs), now they offer the weekend course for $200 i believe, so i figured why not its only $200 and its a whole weekend theres gotta be some great info. not knowing that there just building up for the 25K mastering program. so the 3 day class is over they pass out the booklets for mastering program and interview any1 interested, which i was. untill i found out the price. told them there would be no way i could do it. so they say ok well be in touch with other programs. so a cpl. days later i get a call, its them, asking if im interested in the mastering program yet. i said i would love to (knowing i had no intentions to, i just couldnt believe they were tying to convince me to spend 25k i didnt have) so he says ok i will get you a phone interview with my superior once i get all your info it will take about an hour, so he takes all my info, then i tell him well i dont think this is a good idea, but i would still like to talk to your boss. all of a sudden his boss was busy and i couldnt get a phone interview untill next week. (lol) so heres the best part he tells me to go to creditcards.com and fill out as many CC apps. as i can untill i have 25k and he will call me back next week. and he called me back exactly a week later, of course i didnt answer. he called me everyday for about 2 weeks. i dont know how much the guys from "flip this house" are actually involved in this scam but i couldnt believe it. ive been to a handful of seminars and every single 1 ive ever been to try to sell something i cant believe it. sorry for the long story. but if any1 knows of any real seminars or REIA's in NYC please let me know.

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  • Ed Nunno
    Involved In Real Estate · Staten Island, NY · Member since 2012 · 52 posts · 1 vote
    13y

    its a waste of time, if your thinking about going. dont, they teach you absolutely nothing. take it from someone whos been there. unless you have 25,000 to spend its not worth it at all.

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  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    13y

    I can't comment on their course but if you study marketing at it's core level the 2 most strong drivers out there that have the publics interest all the time is sex and or making money.

    So anyone selling a course it is obvious they want a return on investment for whatever time they put into it.

    For many people being successful has NOTHING to do with a course or going to an event. Those are usually people looking for a magic bullet to riches and will be disappointed. Having a great plan and being consistent with it daily, weekly, monthly, yearly without making excuses is the best secret out there.

    Sure you might here occasional success stories of buying a system and hitting it big one time but what they don't say is the people that are doing It long term have a plan and work the plan all the time.

    The SECRET is there is NO SECRET ! Getting going with anything in life is boring in the beginning because you are setting the foundation and basics for long term success.

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