Women as landlords and flippers
Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 9 posts · 4 votes
Women as landlords and flippers
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Linda WeygantPro Member
Investor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votesOriginally posted by @Amy Batten:
This one is for the ladies! I’m a newbie, and I’m looking for input from other women on hurdles they have faced in the industry. What have you done to overcome them?
I love connecting with other women and empowering each other. One of my big business goals is to help empower other women to also get started in RE investing.
Hi Amy,
We all face hurdles, but there are a few that are specific to being a woman.
For my first deal, I had a mortgage broker that wanted to explain to me how APRs work, how a mortgage payment includes escrow and other very basic financial concepts. I reminded him several times that not only am I a CPA, but I also worked (at the time) as a Financial Analyst for a publicly held firm. I assure him over and over that he could just talk about the mortgage product and not pause to explain everything and that I would ask questions if I was unsure on a something.
This happened 3 or 4 times. Each time after the first time, I would interrupt him and say "no need to explain that, please move on" and he would reply with "oh, that's right - I forgot - you're such a smart girl" or "oh! Right! My Smart Girl Client".
Let me explain that I was 45 years old at the time and nowhere close to a girl.
We were 12 days out from closing when he pulled it again. I hung up on him, called my real estate agent and told him to get me a new mortgage broker. He did. I told the new mortgage broker what I was up against and asked him if he could close in 11 days. He said he could and he did. I have since done something on the order of 5 or 6 mortgage with him. The original broker is apparently selling used cars now after my agent told the story of how I was treated in an all-hands meeting later that month.
The other hurdles I have personally run up against (as a woman)
1. The appliance salesman trying to sell me on color instead of quality. Then asking if my husband needed to approve my decision.
2. Contractors treating me like an idiot. While I don't know everything about my HVAC system, I do know what the thermostat does, thankyouverymuch.
Basically, the main issue that we face as women in an industry that is dominated by men is that we are very frequently pushed aside, particularly if we have a male partner. We are treated like we are flighty, stupid, fiscally uninformed (oooo....you sure you can afford this sweetie?) and have little to no understanding how a house is put together, how to calculate financing or really how to do much of anything.
I solve that problem the same way others of you have - I fire people who treat me like that and move on. Occasionally I leave a scathing Yelp review if I really feel like they deserve it. I'm to the point now where I have built an amazing, smart, customer service oriented team from partners to bankers to contractors. They all, without fail, assume I am knowledgeable until I tell them I'm not.
Successful business people know what they don't know and fill in the gaps with people who do. "Team" members who treat me like an idiot from the outset, simply because of my genitals, are much the poorer for it.
32 Replies
- Real Estate Broker · Northern California · Member since 2018 · 54 posts · 27 votes8y
Amy,
Nice to hear from you. I think there are occasionally some hurdles being a woman in this business, but I find that in most cases you can turn those hurdles into an advantage.
What is your current career path and how is it going?
Lauren
- Investor · Soldotna, AK · Member since 2015 · 103 posts · 64 votes8y
WOW, how are women disadvantaged in real estate investing?
In my experience as an agent, your pretty eyes and sweet talk are a huge advantage to getting deals done. By sweet talk I mean softer tone of voice and more sociable whether in group settings or one on one settings. I've seen many sketchy deals come together because a woman was involved in getting both parties to calm down and focus on their individual goals vs personality differences and creating a win-win situation for both parties.
I wish I could find more women interested in this business to partner up with.
- Rental Property Investor · Edmond, OK · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
Unfortunately, a lot of contractors don't take women seriously. I have had plumbers, electricians, handymen, etc that respond or call back if my husband is the one leaving the message but then when I call I can't get a response. I overcame those issues by just choosing not to work with those businesses. :)
I'm the main contact when it comes to anything that deals with our rentals, so if they don't want to work with me they don't have to. I will use someone else.
- Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 9 posts · 4 votes8y@Jim Chesmore I’m brand new and just curious. I don’t have any personal experience yet and just looking for some awesome women investors to look up to.
- Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 9 posts · 4 votes8y@Cassi Justiz, love that attitude!
- Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 9 posts · 4 votes8y@Jim Chesmore, PS. I actually know where Soldotna is!
- Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 9 posts · 4 votes8y@Lauren Prichard, I work in the Orthopaedics industry, and I’m a former realtor.
- Investor · Soldotna, AK · Member since 2015 · 103 posts · 64 votes8y
Originally posted by @Cassi Justiz:
Unfortunately, a lot of contractors don't take women seriously. I have had plumbers, electricians, handymen, etc that respond or call back if my husband is the one leaving the message but then when I call I can't get a response. I overcame those issues by just choosing not to work with those businesses. :)
I'm the main contact when it comes to anything that deals with our rentals, so if they don't want to work with me they don't have to. I will use someone else.
I think many contractors are great at their job but terrible business owners/managers when it comes to returning calls and scheduling jobs. I don't think its related to the caller being male or female but I can see how it could be seen that way.
I used to love hearing from the "woman of the house" because in most cases they controlled the money and final decision on whether the project got done.
- 8yLinda WeygantPro MemberInvestor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Jim C.:
WOW, how are women disadvantaged in real estate investing?
In my experience as an agent, your pretty eyes and sweet talk are a huge advantage to getting deals done. By sweet talk I mean softer tone of voice and more sociable whether in group settings or one on one settings. I've seen many sketchy deals come together because a woman was involved in getting both parties to calm down and focus on their individual goals vs personality differences and creating a win-win situation for both parties.
I wish I could find more women interested in this business to partner up with.
Please just stop.
- Investor · Soldotna, AK · Member since 2015 · 103 posts · 64 votes8y
Originally posted by @Amy Batten:
@Jim Chesmore I’m brand new and just curious. I don’t have any personal experience yet and just looking for some awesome women investors to look up to.Just know what the contractors are supposed to be doing and DO NOT be afraid to question them before or during the repair. There are many crappy contractors who will take advantage of anyone and everyone and think women are easier prey.
As for wanting to find someone to look up to I think you will be better served to look at their history, their successes and their not so successful ventures. But thats
- Investor · Soldotna, AK · Member since 2015 · 103 posts · 64 votes8y
LOL, what do you mean?
When a guy walks into a situation with other men, the other men are subconsciously going on defense.
When a woman walks into the same situation they don't feel threatened and are more likely to listen.
- Rental Property Investor · Edmond, OK · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes8y
@Jim C., I agree. Some people just don't realize that women have a lot more decision making power than we get credit for!
I've also noticed that there are a lot of contractors out there that are just terrible at scheduling jobs. I certainly don't think it was always related to me being female. But there were certainly a few that I completely stopped trying to do business with because they would be quick to respond or call my husband back and I never could get a response. It was super frustrating!
- 8yLinda WeygantPro MemberInvestor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Amy Batten:
This one is for the ladies! I’m a newbie, and I’m looking for input from other women on hurdles they have faced in the industry. What have you done to overcome them?I love connecting with other women and empowering each other. One of my big business goals is to help empower other women to also get started in RE investing.
Hi Amy,
We all face hurdles, but there are a few that are specific to being a woman.
For my first deal, I had a mortgage broker that wanted to explain to me how APRs work, how a mortgage payment includes escrow and other very basic financial concepts. I reminded him several times that not only am I a CPA, but I also worked (at the time) as a Financial Analyst for a publicly held firm. I assure him over and over that he could just talk about the mortgage product and not pause to explain everything and that I would ask questions if I was unsure on a something.
This happened 3 or 4 times. Each time after the first time, I would interrupt him and say "no need to explain that, please move on" and he would reply with "oh, that's right - I forgot - you're such a smart girl" or "oh! Right! My Smart Girl Client".
Let me explain that I was 45 years old at the time and nowhere close to a girl.We were 12 days out from closing when he pulled it again. I hung up on him, called my real estate agent and told him to get me a new mortgage broker. He did. I told the new mortgage broker what I was up against and asked him if he could close in 11 days. He said he could and he did. I have since done something on the order of 5 or 6 mortgage with him. The original broker is apparently selling used cars now after my agent told the story of how I was treated in an all-hands meeting later that month.
The other hurdles I have personally run up against (as a woman)
1. The appliance salesman trying to sell me on color instead of quality. Then asking if my husband needed to approve my decision.
2. Contractors treating me like an idiot. While I don't know everything about my HVAC system, I do know what the thermostat does, thankyouverymuch.
Basically, the main issue that we face as women in an industry that is dominated by men is that we are very frequently pushed aside, particularly if we have a male partner. We are treated like we are flighty, stupid, fiscally uninformed (oooo....you sure you can afford this sweetie?) and have little to no understanding how a house is put together, how to calculate financing or really how to do much of anything.
I solve that problem the same way others of you have - I fire people who treat me like that and move on. Occasionally I leave a scathing Yelp review if I really feel like they deserve it. I'm to the point now where I have built an amazing, smart, customer service oriented team from partners to bankers to contractors. They all, without fail, assume I am knowledgeable until I tell them I'm not.
Successful business people know what they don't know and fill in the gaps with people who do. "Team" members who treat me like an idiot from the outset, simply because of my genitals, are much the poorer for it.
- 8yLinda WeygantPro MemberInvestor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Jim C.:
LOL, what do you mean?
When a guy walks into a situation with other men, the other men are subconsciously going on defense.
When a woman walks into the same situation they don't feel threatened and are more likely to listen.
It's an eyeroll emoji, Jim. And it's there because you're being pretty typical on this whole topic.
1. The OP wanted to hear from women as to what hurdles they face as women.
2. Within moments you, a man, come in and say that women don't face hurdles and that you just love working with women.
3. With that first post, you completely negate the experience of many, many, many women not just in this industry, but also in the world.
4. You come across as condescending and your generalized statements about the way women behave in business and in their homes is just massively off-putting.
5. Your stereotyping is one of the first problems many women have across many industries. We're more emotional, we're more in tune, we're less confrontational.... No. We're not. Some of us are. Some of us are not.
This was specifically meant to be a conversation for women, by women and about women. Unless your picture is a gross representation of your gender, you can either scroll through and learn what women experience from their own mouths, or you can scroll pass the topic if it isn't of interest.
What you shouldn't be doing is coming in and stating that the OPs general premise is wrong and you, as a man, know all about it why her statement is false. You have nothing to contribute to this discussion other than the occasional Yas Queen!
- 8yLinda WeygantPro MemberInvestor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
Originally posted by @Jim C.:
When a woman walks into the same situation they don't feel threatened and are more likely to listen.
And this statement here is probably one of the most ignorant statements I have read today.
Women don't feel threatened? Are you freaking kidding me? We walk into every gathering wondering who is going to belittle us, who is going to talk to our chests, who is going to dismiss us outright and who is going to be friendly up front and possibly assault us later.
One in five women in this country have been verbally, physically or sexually assaulted.
We learn from an early age to walk with our keys in our hands so we can quickly get in our cars or houses. A woman seen fumbling with a key is an easy target. We learn to walk in groups and even go to the bathroom together. We learn to watch our drinks in every gathering and be very careful about how much we drink. We learn very quickly which men we can trust and which we need to stay away from.
I used to tell my (male) partner not to sit next to me in real estate meetings or stand next to me during networking because the vast majority of men will speak only to him and dismiss me as "the wife".
If the women you know are "listening" in a group, it may be because you are doing all the talking or they are trying to size you up for trustworthiness - not just as a potential business partner, but if they can trust you with their physical safety. We are constantly sizing up the people we meet on a variety of levels. Men do not have these same concerns.
- Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes8y
Originally posted by @Cassi Justiz:
Unfortunately, a lot of contractors don't take women seriously. I have had plumbers, electricians, handymen, etc that respond or call back if my husband is the one leaving the message but then when I call I can't get a response. I overcame those issues by just choosing not to work with those businesses. :)
I'm the main contact when it comes to anything that deals with our rentals, so if they don't want to work with me they don't have to. I will use someone else.
This is by far the top thing women say when this question is posed/answered, regardless of the medium/forum where the question is posed.
General contractors (if applicable to you), this means you're leaving money on the table, which is being picked up by those GCs that treat women the same as anyone else. When you're the only vendor treating folks in a traditionally marginalized group like gold, you might just find that you make more gold.
(And to be clear, I'm not saying or insinuating that my industry overall is necessarily any better.)
- Investor · Soldotna, AK · Member since 2015 · 103 posts · 64 votes8y
Originally posted by @Linda Weygant:
Originally posted by @Jim C.:
When a woman walks into the same situation they don't feel threatened and are more likely to listen.
And this statement here is probably one of the most ignorant statements I have read today.
Women don't feel threatened? Are you freaking kidding me? We walk into every gathering wondering who is going to belittle us, who is going to talk to our chests, who is going to dismiss us outright and who is going to be friendly up front and possibly assault us later.
One in five women in this country have been verbally, physically or sexually assaulted.
We learn from an early age to walk with our keys in our hands so we can quickly get in our cars or houses. A woman seen fumbling with a key is an easy target. We learn to walk in groups and even go to the bathroom together. We learn to watch our drinks in every gathering and be very careful about how much we drink. We learn very quickly which men we can trust and which we need to stay away from.
I used to tell my (male) partner not to sit next to me in real estate meetings or stand next to me during networking because the vast majority of men will speak only to him and dismiss me as "the wife".
If the women you know are "listening" in a group, it may be because you are doing all the talking or they are trying to size you up for trustworthiness - not just as a potential business partner, but if they can trust you with their physical safety. We are constantly sizing up the people we meet on a variety of levels. Men do not have these same concerns.
I wasn't clear in my wording
I meant the men don't feel threatened when I woman comes into a situation. A woman can deescalate a tense situation much easier than a man. If a woman is involved from the beginning things rarely get out of control. Woman are naturally better at communicating.
I agree with everything else you said and I didn't intend my statement to come out that way
- Investor · Pawleys Island, SC · Member since 2015 · 324 posts · 385 votes8y
Despite being in South Carolina, I have been blessed to not deal with this much in real estate.
@Linda Weygant, I too am an accountant. I was the controller for a foundry in rural South Carolina. I got the job because my retiring boss recommended me for it. I was his assistant/ office administrator at the time. I was 28. Also, I'm a mighty 5 foot even, 125 pounds. I was often confused for the administrative assistant or people assumed I had a secretary. It came in handy at times :-)
My contractor always calls me Ms. Buffkin and when one of his crew finally met me in person, he said he was surprised. I wasn't what he expected. My husband is my silent partner and not involved in the day to day. As my husband is never mentioned or talked about despite the volume of business we do (they did a gut job for us in March/April), he assumed I was some 75 year old widow who inherited my husband's properties.
Being a woman has been an advantage for me in tenant matters. I am a small landlord with just 8 properties (though I am looking at a 6plex on Thursday). I self manage and in 6 of my 8 units, a woman is the head of household. I have 4 single moms, an older widow, and a mother of 2 who lost her husband to a car accident the year before she began renting from me. I chat with them when they rent from me. They all know I buy and rent real estate to allow me to stay home with my 2 boys. This makes me more of a person rather than a faceless business.
- 8yLinda WeygantPro MemberInvestor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
@Jim C. - please, just stop. You are continuing to perpetuate the very stereotypes that WE women are discussing here and find it difficult to overcome when working in male dominated industries. Take a lesson from @Chris Mason who popped in to say that his understanding of the problems that women have mirror exactly what we say, not come in and tell us that we're wrong and that we don't experience the things we say we experience. You are a textbook case of gaslighting and mansplaining.
Because, if you are going to ask about women's experiences, who is better equipped to answer the question? A woman? Any woman? Or you? I know you think you are, by your posts here. But trust me. You're not. This is a topic that you have literally no knowledge of. The best you can contribute is what other women have told you their experiences are. And yet, despite several women speaking here and saying what their experiences are, you insist on saying that those experiences are not true.
Women are none of the things you say we are. We are not naturally better at anything, with the exception of having babies. Men are not naturally better at anything, with the definite exception of peeing while standing (although most of y'all's aim is atrocious).
Positive and negative stereotypes work against us every day. Your expectations of women as naturally better communicators (and you spreading that falsehood to other men) may lead you to blame women when a communication isn't clear. I mean, clearly it's going to be her fault if she's better at it, right?
Yes, some women - perhaps many women - are good communicators. But it's not something that occurs just because we have two XX chromosomes. It's something that occurs because it's a practiced and learned skill, not something that happens when we grow breasts.
You may say that a woman can better deescalate a tense situation than a man, but honestly if we were standing in the same room, you'd already have my drink all over your face because you just can't seem to stop being insulting and if I wasn't so sure @Mindy Jensen would yell at me for it, my posts to you would already be waaayyyy past the Be Nice, Be Respectful premise of BP's user guide.
- 8yLinda WeygantPro MemberInvestor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
@Anna Buffkin - I think it's great that you have found a way to work through challenges by being accessible and open with your tenants - particularly those that are women as well. If other women find you more easy to relate to because of who you are as a person, then that is certainly something to be proud of and work with. I am also really chatty with my tenants, but my partner is as well and I don't think that is a gender issue - we are both just naturally friendly people and pretty accessible. I show up to units in shorts and a t-shirt and flip flops sometimes. Other times, it's business casual. I think that coming across as a human is what makes those relationships winners.
- Investor · Soldotna, AK · Member since 2015 · 103 posts · 64 votes8y
Originally posted by @Linda Weygant:
@Jim C. - please, just stop. You are continuing to perpetuate the very stereotypes that WE women are discussing here and find it difficult to overcome when working in male dominated industries. Take a lesson from @Chris Mason who popped in to say that his understanding of the problems that women have mirror exactly what we say, not come in and tell us that we're wrong and that we don't experience the things we say we experience. You are a textbook case of gaslighting and mansplaining.
Because, if you are going to ask about women's experiences, who is better equipped to answer the question? A woman? Any woman? Or you? I know you think you are, by your posts here. But trust me. You're not. This is a topic that you have literally no knowledge of. The best you can contribute is what other women have told you their experiences are. And yet, despite several women speaking here and saying what their experiences are, you insist on saying that those experiences are not true. I never said I was better at anything and don't know where you got that idea
Women are none of the things you say we are. We are not naturally better at anything, with the exception of having babies. Men are not naturally better at anything, with the definite exception of peeing while standing (although most of y'all's aim is atrocious). Most women are gentler, softer and easy to get along with than most men
Positive and negative stereotypes work against us every day. Your expectations of women as naturally better communicators (and you spreading that falsehood to other men) may lead you to blame women when a communication isn't clear. I mean, clearly it's going to be her fault if she's better at it, right? WOW! I considered it a compliment. I don't think I can get you to understand that but I tried...
Yes, some women - perhaps many women - are good communicators. But it's not something that occurs just because we have two XX chromosomes. It's something that occurs because it's a practiced and learned skill, not something that happens when we grow breasts. I never said it anything to do with breasts but for some reason you put words in my mouth
You may say that a woman can better deescalate a tense situation than a man, but honestly if we were standing in the same room, you'd already have my drink all over your face because you just can't seem to stop being insulting and if I wasn't so sure @Mindy Jensen would yell at me for it, my posts to you would already be waaayyyy past the Be Nice, Be Respectful premise of BP's user guide. Obviously you may not be a good example of a woman who is good at deescalating a tense situation
More power to all you women who understand I'm not trying to put anyone down.
- Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles · Member since 2018 · 844 posts · 1k+ votes8y
This thread is a perfect, real-life example of the stuff women have to deal with on a regular basis. And like a lot of other real-life situations, often the well-intentioned fellow does things without realizing it.
"Pretty eyes", "sweet talk"??? With these statements, you might think you are being nice, but what you are also doing is objectifying women.
I sometimes see a difference in the way our contractors and agents talk to me vs my wife. Also, for some reason, they often feel the need to run my wife's instructions by me before proceeding. But they sure as heck never run my instructions by my wife when I tell them to do something.
- 8yMindy JensenPro MemberBiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
This is something that many women face when entering a male-dominated industry - and many men don't think happens ever.
I've never experienced anything from a man's point of view, because I am not a man. However, I can see a very real difference in the way that my husband is treated by some contractors vs the way those very same people treat me.
I have a personality defect, in that I just think I can do anything.
My biggest hurdle is contractors who don't take me seriously. I've never let some chauvinistic contractor work for me for very long.
- Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2018 · 49 posts · 46 votes8y
I've been in the construction and real estate industry since I was 18, I've had my fair share of not so great experiences, but I developed thick skin quickly and never take anything personally.
Networking is key, find the people you like to work with, trust and respect you. If someone doesn't respect you or thinks you're "crazy", then they don't get your business, period. I have things to accomplish so I don't give too much energy to negativity.
With my tenants, I find many of the men are willing to push much harder with my husband than they will with me. I am also very black and white when it comes to my tenants, I'm nice enough, but when it comes to terms, what is in the lease is what will happen, I do not budge.
In the end, I would say it all comes down to communication and people skills whether you're a man, woman or a giraffe.
- Real Estate Investor · New Hope, PA · Member since 2014 · 193 posts · 113 votes8y
Hi @Amy Batten - Thank you for getting this discussion going and thank you for all the ladies contributing on this thread. This topic is near and dear to me and the reason my friend and colleague launched the "Real Estate InvestHER Show" earlier this year. We launched this podcast (about 31 episodes in) with the specific purpose of helping empower woman in this business. I have been investing since 2004 and 14 years later this business (the investing side) still tends to be male dominated. To answer your question specifically, I would say the same as Mindy - contractors not taking me seriously. However, we just move on and don't work with these particular contractors. Thanks again for getting this discussion going - this is a passion of mine as you can see! We are doing our best to help woman connect with one another in this business (we have a FB group of about 400 woman, monthly meetup in NJ, and other things coming in the future). I would love for you and the ladies following this thread to shoot me an email if you have any and all ideas for our show, guests we can have on, and other ways to serve women in this business.
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