Refinance: Cash Out or No Cash Out

Refinance: Cash Out or No Cash Out

Kirkland, WA · Member since 2014 · 20 posts · 12 votes

Hello BP Members, I'd like to hear your opinion.

Currently my wife and I are looking to refinance underlying mortgage on our primary residence from a 30 yr fixed @ 4.5%, to a 5/1 ARM @ 3.375% based on received rate quotes, as we will be moving out of NYC within 5 Yrs. We have an opportunity, at least based on preliminary discussions w/ our mortgage broker, to pull out an additional $40k (approx.). I've done the analysis, comparing the cash out refinance vs. a lower monthly payment, and we would need to earn an avg annual return of 7% or more over the next five years on the invested cash out funds ($40k) for it to make sense from a purely dollars/net worth aspect.

Given present somewhat high valuation of equity markets, i consider moving the money into equities significant risk with minimal upside. however, investing additional funds in a single family rental and obtaining a mortgage, i estimate (somewhat conservatively) we could earn an avg annual return of 12%+, at a minimum. Albeit at a much higher risk level given the increased debt.

Btw, our present plan - without additional funds - is to buy one rental property by year's end, a second by end of next year. If we do the cash out option though, we would aim to buy by end of Oct or Nov this year, second property by Apr or May 2015, and a third by Dec 2015.

Current DTI ratio is 19%, and would remain 19% if take cash out option as monthly payment is virtually unchanged from current payment. From a risk management perspective, we have 9 months of living expenses in a savings account.

Which option would you choose? Thanks! 

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Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 14 posts · 9 votes
12y

You might also consider a slightly difference scenario where you don't take the cash out during your refinance but instead setup a HELOC against remaining available equity. While 3.375% is great. I just closed on HELOC with 3.99% with no setup/closing costs. In this way you wouldn't necessarily have to deploy the cash unless you found the deal you wanted.

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  • Loan Officer / Processor / Life & Health Agent · Rancho Cucamonga, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 757 votes
    12y

    Travis,

    I personally think it's a great idea to take cash out at a lower rate,  turn around and make money with other people's money.

    The only thing I would suggest is be careful with arm products.  5 years will creep up on you so fast and if you're not in a position to refinance or sell you could get yourself into a mess assuming rates have gone up by then. 

    Just make sure you have a solid exit plan and be ready to execute it during the end of year 3 and the start of year 4.  This will allow you plenty of time to change it up if something out of your control happens.

    Good luck and I hope this helps.

  • Kirkland, WA · Member since 2014 · 20 posts · 12 votes
    12y

    @Shaun Weekes excellent perspective from the risk management side.

    This reminds of my time at a national bank in Seattle, 2010.  The majority of our clients were not only maxed out on their mortgages, but had $50k+ lines of credit, etc. on their residence.  At the time I thought, "no way would I ever let that happen."  Your points about years 3-4 and exit strategy are a great reminder.  Thank you.

  • Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 14 posts · 9 votes
    12y

    You might also consider a slightly difference scenario where you don't take the cash out during your refinance but instead setup a HELOC against remaining available equity. While 3.375% is great. I just closed on HELOC with 3.99% with no setup/closing costs. In this way you wouldn't necessarily have to deploy the cash unless you found the deal you wanted.

  • Investor · Middletown, NJ · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    We love Helocs and have as many as we were able to get - 4. They are 10 year interest only, about 5%, but only a $100 app fee and a $50 a year "maintenance" fee. As @Garrett Poshusta said, you don't have to use it until you want/need to. Much cheaper than a cash out refi.

  • Kirkland, WA · Member since 2014 · 20 posts · 12 votes
    12y

    @Garrett Poshusta You are the third person to recommend this avenue in the past 24 hours. Based on Shaun's comments above about timing and the HELOC recommendations, I'm actually leaning to not refinance and do the HELOC when the time comes. Thanks for the input! Good point about closing costs as well.

  • Real Estate Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2014 · 15 posts · 5 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Travis Barron:

    @Garrett Poshusta You are the third person to recommend this avenue in the past 24 hours. Based on Shaun's comments above about timing and the HELOC recommendations, I'm actually leaning to not refinance and do the HELOC when the time comes. Thanks for the input! Good point about closing costs as well.

    I will be looking into this option as well! For some reason HELOC's have always been like a big bad word... but maybe not so much anymore if numbers make sense.

  • Hanford, CA · Member since 2013 · 5k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    FYI once your place is a rental the interest rate and down payment amounts are MUCH higher. So I would be careful using arms.

  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
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    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    12y

    I pretty much always think you should take cash out if you can (unless it's at the risk of way over-leveraging your properties, which is not the case here).

  • Kirkland, WA · Member since 2014 · 20 posts · 12 votes
    12y

    @Andrew Syrios Thanks for the input.  How do you define 'over-leveraging'? This is something I've been working to define myself for planning purposes but am interested in your opinion.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Leave the existing 1st in place and take a second, a HELOC works well for short term financing, not so great for long term with funds staying in a rental.

    Know the terms of the HELOC before you jump. Interest rates can be changed, future amounts available can be terminated or limited, the change in your credit rating can get you loan accelerated to maturity, a change in your financial position can also effect the loan or it being called due. They can be dangerous and should only be used for shorter term needs.

    A straight second mortgage is probably better, depends on the rental cash flow, interest is deducted.

    Another point as to refinancing any first, cash out may carry a higher rate and or points to cash out. The balance paying off the old loan will be shifted to the new rate, any difference should then be looked at as an interest cost to the amount of cash received as well as the additional points and costs of obtaining the loan need to be viewed on a weighted basis. That means the cash out amount may be costing you more than the note rate as you need to allocate these funds .

    Then compare to a second or line of credit. Financing long term needs on short term financing can be a disaster......short term financing for short term needs, long term for long term needs.

    Sounds like your mortgage broker is doing a bit of a sales job to get a higher origination on the loan amount, they often misrepresent the real cost of that additional money (might be he doesn't really know and not trying to blow one past you). Good luck :)  

  • Kirkland, WA · Member since 2014 · 20 posts · 12 votes
    12y

    @Bill Gulley Very valuable view point. The short-term financing for long-term needs of using a HELOC for REI is a concern of mine. I never really considered a second mortgage and to be honest, did not know it was an option, but will look into it. Thank you for the informed opinion, and hope to learn more from you as I go.

  • Queen Creek, AZ · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    Any chance you would rent your current home when you move?  If so you might want to keep the 30 year fixed in place.

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