Non-success Story

Non-success Story

Bill S.Pro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes

So there ought to be a forum section for mistakes. A place where we can post our defeats, where we can process what went wrong and share with others so they can avoid the pain. Since that doesn't exist. I'll post here.

My out of state (Cheyenne Wyoming) real estate venture has wrapped up. I lost money despite selling for more than I purchased it for. I had holding costs plus some work I did. It was an updown duplex that had an ARV of about $150K but just couldn't get it done. I was under capitalized and under staffed.

Bought for $27,000 held for 2.5 years sold for $42,500. Paid heat, lights, water, sewer, garbage, taxes, and insurance. Adds up over time. Also did about $7k of work plus closing costs on both ends. Still had about $50K to go. Just couldn't get up there to get the work done or dedicate the funds to pay someone local to get 'er done. Someone offered me money to walk away and I took it. I now know how don't wanters feel. Very glad to sell and be done. All in I probably lost about $5K not to mention the amount of my own time I sunk into trying to get stuff done. I planned to do the work myself since I couldn't make myself pay the local contractors their outrageous prices. Huge mistake. Time is probably the biggest loss. I'm sure had I used that time to work my deals down here in Denver I could have actually made money.

Lots of issues with the cost of local contractors. I was getting quotes about 3x-5x what I could get the work done locally. None of the plumbers had heard of PEX and the list goes on. Huge local prejudice against carpetbaggers like myself. I know the bids they gave me included a non-local markup. They could do that because the local oil field market had sucked up all available labor talent.

Moral of the story for me, stay close to home and do what I know. Plan to hire the work done, get bids for work I don't know what it will actually cost and allocate the funds to pay someone to do the work.

Learn from my mistakes fellow BPers.

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Joel OwensBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
10y

What I looked at years ago was just the RETURN. I quickly learned it's about how much time and energy it takes to create that return. 

Today I think long and hard about the whole process and what the possible exits will be A,B,C etc. I begin with the end in mind for acquisition and disposition. It's very important how the potential investment will affect my life and overall investment strategy.

I love a mostly passive 15% where I can sit on the beach versus a 21% that takes up every second of my life constantly putting out fires (problems) for extra perceived yield. Those kinds of properties it's hard to scale efficiently. 

High intensity investments I was buying myself a job. I no longer do those investments today. I have a job transacting commercial real estate that pays extremely well with nothing to match the returns. I am all about quality these days versus (cash for trash) type properties. There are many ways to increase overall yield without buying dumpy properties in so,so locations.     

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  • Investor · Erie, CO · Member since 2015 · 28 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    Thanks Bill. I have been eyeballing properties up there as it is so dry here in the metro and Norco areas. I have been told this as second hand but you just nailed the coffin saving me at least that much if I were to pull that trigger. :) Nope not now, thanks.

  • Investor · TN · Member since 2014 · 508 posts · 167 votes
    10y

    Thanks for sharing @Bill S.

  • Waterville, ME · Member since 2015 · 269 posts · 53 votes
    10y

    great share @Bill S. 

  • Real Estate Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2015 · 26 posts · 9 votes
    10y

    Thanks for sharing

  • Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 31 posts · 10 votes
    10y

    Thanks for sharing that Bill. It takes a lot of humility to accept our defeats, but that is where the gold is. In learning our errors and finally zigzag-ing our way to the finish line. Good luck Bill.

  • John CasmonPro Member
    Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Bill S. Thanks for sharing this story. As you said, not enough of these stories are shared, so appreciate your openness.

    Looking back would you still have done the deal? Or posed another way, if a similar deal was presented to you today would you do it and how would you manage it differently? How has this experience shaped your strategy going forward? 

  • Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2014 · 615 posts · 172 votes
    10y

    @Bill S.

    Thanks for sharing. My joy is that you have learnt your lessons and hopefully, you will not cross this bridge twice.

    For me, I am not a builder, and I dont rehab....I do not have comparative advantage and the skills to do that..I will rather leave that for the experts.... my time is too precious for me to spend lifting bricks......more over, it becomes another JOB for me.....I rather take a low return with peace of mind while watching my son play basketball games that sweat through 25%. I am in real estate for passive income....and the income should remain passive.....

    I am happy you are doing great in Denver...

    Happy investing.

  • Bill S.Pro Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @John Casmon To do it different. Probably would not have been playing in that market (see my take aways). All that said some thinks I did learn that helped my business.

    The first lesson was, marketing does work. This property came from a bandit sign call. It gave me hope that I could find and take down off-market deals. It gave me a chance to see that the marketing strategies for wholesaling work.

    2nd lesson even if I buy for my own hold or fix or whatever, buy at a price I can resell and profit. I found out later that they were offering this property for sale to others at $20k for over a year. I probably could have purchased it much lower. So I left about $10K on the table on the buy end IMO. It would have at least made me a little money had I negotiated harder.

    Would I do the deal again? Not at the price I did. I now have some infrastructure in place that would allow me to move the property if I got it at the right price. 

    How would I manage it differently? The project was too big, too far away, and I did not do enough homework to accurately determine my fix-up costs if I hired it all out. In the end I was pinched with money and time. What I would do now is do all the demo and clean up and then offer it for sale on the MLS. It was nasty and just the demo of all the rotted walls and removing nasty refrigerators and cat urine soaked wood floors made about a ton of difference. I think had I sold it that point, I could have made about $10K even at the price I paid. I did most of that in the first 6 months I owned it so holding costs would have been lower as well.

    How did it shape my strategy going forward? Several Items.

    1) No more property more than 20 min from my house. 

    2) Buy with the end in mind. Buy with instant equity so I have options.

    3) Have many options to do with my time and funds. If I'm looking at 5 deals, I'm less likely to "reach" on a deal like I did on this one. 

    4) Leave the heavy rehab and reconstruction to others. Buy it so I can wholesale or wholetail it. My job is marketing and finding deals not playing contractor.

    5) Marketing does work in every market. In hot markets I just need to do it more and be consistent. Working in Cheyenne helped me know that bandit signs work and direct mail also works. It confirmed the advise posted here about marketing. I know without a doubt, If I lived there, I could make a great living as an RE investor like I am doing here. I just can't do it there while living here.

  • South Jersey, NJ · Member since 2014 · 154 posts · 50 votes
    10y

    I know once I finally jump into this I'm going to make mistakes and lose some $.  Its part of the reason I haven't jumped in yet.  I'm building a much bigger nest egg then whats really needed to get started.  This way when problems do arise it wont be as stressful and my emotions wont get in the way of my better judgment.  I look at losses no different than a college education, people take on $60k worth of student loans thinking nothing of it.  I wouldn't mind a $5,000 hit so long as it educates me and I don't make the same mistake.  

    Looking forward to more stories so I can minimize those losses just the same lol

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Chicago, IL · Member since 2014 · 108 posts · 51 votes
    10y

    Great perspective @Joel Owens.

    I've done plenty of low-end, low value deals.

    As a fix & flip investor and wholesaler, over the past two years, began gravitating toward houses in nicer neighborhoods with higher ARV's, higher capital requirements, etc.

    I have been CAUTIOUSLY doing this, as I remember 2007-2009 when the higher price points damaged many investors due to their overexposure when the crash took place.  

    The calculation on your INVESTMENT OF TIME is a calculation many don't consider.  My ability to leverage my time investment on deals through partnering with high caliber, trustworthy individuals has increased my income more than any other single factor.  

    Marketing, negotiation, and access to capital played a close second, third, & fourth in my recent income multiplications.  

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y

    Hi @Eric P. Even if you are new, there isn't a guarantee that you will lose money on your first investment.  Quality take-away stories like this from @Bill S. and all the info available here on BP and this helpful community better prepare us for things to look out for.   It's good to be cautious and conservative, especially at first, but the scared to start language of your post prompted me to respond.  

    My 2 'surprises' that left me in a lurch over the years were due to poor self-inspections.  Vacant properties I didn't fully inspect the plumbing. When I turned water service back on... The worst one had attic copper plumbing and flooded my new kitchen from above. The pipe was right next to the gable vent.  Figured I had inspected enough properties and got complacent. 

    My additional take away for folks is to get properties properly inspected, especially if they have been vacant and utilities turned off!  

  • Jerry W.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    @Bill S. thanks for sharing your story.  I happen to know that your time is pretty precious as a commodity so its not just the value of what you have to say but taking the time from your busy schedule to share it.  For those of you who don't know Bill he is going great guns in Denver.  He has both innovation and common sense.  He recently took the time to give me some advice on a place I had been invited to make an offer on.  While I still decided to make the offer, based on his recommendations I offered a lower price and requested my financing at a lower interest rate then I had planned.  Plus he had some common sense suggestions on maintenance that should save me about $100 per month.  It is people like Bill that make this site such a value.

  • Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2014 · 615 posts · 172 votes
    10y

    @Eric P. I do not believe that reading ALL the mistakes in the REI universe will preclude you from making yours. I am sure that some veterans on this forum still make mistakes....circumstances may differ and so present different scenarios.

    I totally agree with @Steve Vaughan. Do NOT be scared to take the next step. There are tons of new things to discover in REI and not attempting is a worse situation to be in than to make mistake..

    My one cent!

  • South Jersey, NJ · Member since 2014 · 154 posts · 50 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Ndy Onyido:

    @Eric P. I do not believe that reading ALL the mistakes in the REI universe will preclude you from making yours. I am sure that some veterans on this forum still make mistakes....circumstances may differ and so present different scenarios.

    I totally agree with @Steve Vaughan. Do NOT be scared to take the next step. There are tons of new things to discover in REI and not attempting is a worse situation to be in than to make mistake..

    My one cent!

     Don't worry, I'll be making that first step soon enough.  We actually just purchased our first home.  Got a great deal so we're happy.  Just need to get used to being a homeowner.  And because we want to begin investing in real estate I'd like to have a minimum of 9-12 months worth of personal monthly expenses saved in an emergency fund.  In addition I'd like to get rid of some of my higher interest student loans (Currently owe about $26,000 at $400 a month with like $14,000 of that at 6% so paying off the 6% loans would cut my monthly payment in half)..  Once we hit those 2 goals we'll be jumping in, till then I'll keep on gaining great info here like in this post and hope that when the day comes I'm not faced with analysis paralysis.

  • Investor · Omaha, NE · Member since 2011 · 475 posts · 211 votes
    10y

    @Bill S.We all make mistakes, but, as long as they're not fatal you can persevere, learn and be better off for them. I've made some mistake on just about every project, just different ones. #1 Under capitalized but after putting more in and renegotiating the loan it's cash flowing well. #2 Didn't check on zoning compliance and that cost $35K to do parking lot moving and rezoning. Also the property management co. was slow to complete the rehab we knew was needed and rent it and I was too slow to fire them. Fortunately bought at a great price so cash flowing well #3 Didn't find out until just after closing that it had termites and that cost $5K. It's also cash flowing now #4 We didn't get the rehab costs right and didn't understand how bad the former landlord was and how many we would have to evict. Ended up having to loan the project $85K out of pocket (it was a syndicate). A year and a half later it is now cash flowing and one reason we bought it was that it was a block from a local U. We are now under talks for them to contract next summer to rent the whole thing for a guaranteed 100% occupancy for 3 yrs. Persevere and learn (hopefully from others mistakes) and you can come out ahead.

     Dennis

  • Dawn AnastasiPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    I've definitely made mistakes too.  Everyone is human, we make mistakes, but we learn from them and move on.

  • Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2014 · 615 posts · 172 votes
    10y

    @Eric P.

    Awesome plan! Wish you all the best..and see you around the forum..

  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    @Bill S.

    We all have at least one of these seemed-like-a-sure-thing-but-just-could-not-make-it-happen stories.   If more of us were as frank as you, someone would benefit from our failures.

    On that note ... I have a similar tail being written now.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · IA · Member since 2015 · 157 posts · 35 votes
    10y
  • Justin WindhamPro Member
    Banker · Nationwide · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Joshua Pavao:

    @Bill S. I love reading these more than anything. Not saying I enjoy that you lost money, but I follow a quote by Warren Buffett where he says:

    "Everyone learns from mistakes, but there is no rule in life saying that those mistakes have to be your own."

    I agree with what Joshua said completely. Thanks for sharing your story, Bill. I too think there should be a section devoted to these types of experiences.

  • Licensed Mortgage Lender · Fort Lauderdale, FL · Member since 2014 · 98 posts · 13 votes
    10y

    @Dennis Tierney That's awesome.  It just goes to show that growing pains during a real estate investment is the tried and true way to learn.  I suggest it on these forums over education 100% of the time.  Because whenever you encounter the situations that you encountered here, you will be wiser for sure.

  • Investor · Millbrook, AL · Member since 2015 · 21 posts · 7 votes
    10y

    I appreciate this post. I thank you for your honesty. 

  • Lakeside, CA · Member since 2015 · 3 posts · 0 votes
    10y
    So what would you have done differently or what will you look out for now? If you could go back to the day before you purchased it, would you have still done the deal and go about it differently or not do it at all?
  • Bill S.Pro Member
    Moderator
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Denver, CO · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Cristian Goodson I would only do the deal if I could have gotten it for about $10K less so that I could have had more funds to hire work done or just turned around and resold it. What do I look out for now? Myself. Being too optimistic and planning to bail out the deal with my own free labor.

    Buying cheaper would make it more appealing and probably only flipping it to a hard core rehaber.

  • Investor · Newburgh, IN · Member since 2014 · 63 posts · 47 votes
    10y

    Thanks for sharing, @Bill S. .   I think humbling stories like these are VERY important for us all to hear.  It's not always a glamorous road.

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