How important is it to follow the 50% or 2% rule.

How important is it to follow the 50% or 2% rule.

Weare, NH · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 23 votes

Hi II am a newbie and looking for some advice on a property in Wear Nh. There is a duplex for sale for just under 200k. It generates $2000 on rental income and according to the calculators mortgage, taxes, and insurance would cost around $1000-$1200. Now I know this generates 1% income of the sale price and the 50% rule I would make a couple bucks. But I don't see who I couldn't make money off of this property. In a "perfect world" I would make $9600 to $12000 profit a year off this unit. I understand that will probably never happen. The house was built in 1980 and just recently renovated so everything is in good working order. Has a drilled well, plowing I can do myslef. What other expenses would I have? I understand things break and need to be replaced. I Am not looking to get rich ( it would be nice) but even if I had to dump $5000 a year into it that stil leaves me with $4600-$7000 yearly profits. 

Am I stupid for thinking this way or is everyone out to make the big bucks. 

Also on a side note I would rather deal with more middle class people than lower class, I have seen a couple triplexs in the Concord and Manchester aera that would probably generate more income but I feel like duplexes would bring it better renters. Any advice on this would be helpful 

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Investor · Lincoln, RI · Member since 2015 · 11 posts · 8 votes
10y
I typically plan for 5-10% vacancy but you may be able to find some data specific to your market. Also, are these units metered separately for water? It's customary here in RI for landlords to pay water mostly due to the fact that most multi unit buildings only have one water meter. Also, if you're paying $1200 per month in Piti then you're already at $14,400, add in some vacancy ($1,200) and that already brings you down to max potential cash flow of $8400. Trust me, you will spend some money on repairs and maintenance of you truly track those costs. A good rule of them is anywhere between 4-12% of gross rents. Even if you plan on 4% this still another $1000 approx. finally, don't underestimate the cost of turnover (in my opinion the most costly expense). Paint, new carpets, a few random repairs, pay a realtor to rent it for you, change locks, key copies, paying utilities while vacant, cleaning, etc etc etc can easily add up to $1000s of dollars.
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  • Investor · Lincoln, RI · Member since 2015 · 11 posts · 8 votes
    10y
    Hi Nate What are your taxes, insurance, any utility bills, repairs account for at least 5% of gross rents, vacancy, landscaping. I've found that expenses almost always run right around 50% of gross rents. Don't fool yourself by thinking there will be little to no repairs because it's recently been renovated. Good luck!!
  • Weare, NH · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 23 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Marc Santos:

    Hi Nate

    What are your taxes, insurance, any utility bills, repairs account for at least 5% of gross rents, vacancy, landscaping. I've found that expenses almost always run right around 50% of gross rents. Don't fool yourself by thinking there will be little to no repairs because it's recently been renovated. Good luck!!

     Taxes are 3900 and that would be cover in the $1000 to $1200 mortgage listed above. How many vacancies should I plan for. 1 month per unit? How many vacancies do you usually have in a year? No Utility bills, renters would pay for heat and electric. Landscape is minimal and I can do myslef.

  • Realtor · Keystone Heights, FL · Member since 2015 · 340 posts · 118 votes
    10y

    2% rule...I'm not a huge fan of it. It's a very generalized rule that doesn't work in allot of markets. 

    50% rule...Somehow this rule seems to run much truer and while it's definitely not exact science, it's a great tool to let you quickly estimate if a deal is worth looking into harder.

  • Weare, NH · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 23 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Walter Key:

    2% rule...I'm not a huge fan of it. It's a very generalized rule that doesn't work in allot of markets. 

    50% rule...Somehow this rule seems to run much truer and while it's definitely not exact science, it's a great tool to let you quickly estimate if a deal is worth looking into harder.

     How much money do you need to shoot for each apartment?

  • Realtor · Keystone Heights, FL · Member since 2015 · 340 posts · 118 votes
    10y

    This totally depends on the deal. What's the market like, how much is the property worth, how much do you plan to buy it for, what are your financing terms and carrying costs and what profit margin do you want to achieve.

    Sorry, I know that may not have answered your question very well. Each deal has to be evaluated on it's own with the investors goals in mind.

  • Investor · Lincoln, RI · Member since 2015 · 11 posts · 8 votes
    10y
    I typically plan for 5-10% vacancy but you may be able to find some data specific to your market. Also, are these units metered separately for water? It's customary here in RI for landlords to pay water mostly due to the fact that most multi unit buildings only have one water meter. Also, if you're paying $1200 per month in Piti then you're already at $14,400, add in some vacancy ($1,200) and that already brings you down to max potential cash flow of $8400. Trust me, you will spend some money on repairs and maintenance of you truly track those costs. A good rule of them is anywhere between 4-12% of gross rents. Even if you plan on 4% this still another $1000 approx. finally, don't underestimate the cost of turnover (in my opinion the most costly expense). Paint, new carpets, a few random repairs, pay a realtor to rent it for you, change locks, key copies, paying utilities while vacant, cleaning, etc etc etc can easily add up to $1000s of dollars.
  • Investor · Quincy, MA · Member since 2015 · 30 posts · 14 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Nate Wilson:

    but even if I had to dump $5000 a year into it that stil leaves me with $4600-$7000 yearly profits. 

    Why do you think you'd only need to spend $5000 a year on it? 

    Vacancy alone will likely cost you about 2k, and when the tenant leaves, how sure are you that they won't trash the place, or at least leave it messy?

    What about when you need a new water heater in 5 years, or a new roof in 10 years? 

    How exactly did you come up with your $5000 figure? Was it just a random guess? Did you try using the calculator under the "tools" tab above? 

  • Weare, NH · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 23 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Marc Santos:

    I typically plan for 5-10% vacancy but you may be able to find some data specific to your market. Also, are these units metered separately for water? It's customary here in RI for landlords to pay water mostly due to the fact that most multi unit buildings only have one water meter. Also, if you're paying $1200 per month in Piti then you're already at $14,400, add in some vacancy ($1,200) and that already brings you down to max potential cash flow of $8400. Trust me, you will spend some money on repairs and maintenance of you truly track those costs. A good rule of them is anywhere between 4-12% of gross rents. Even if you plan on 4% this still another $1000 approx. finally, don't underestimate the cost of turnover (in my opinion the most costly expense). Paint, new carpets, a few random repairs, pay a realtor to rent it for you, change locks, key copies, paying utilities while vacant, cleaning, etc etc etc can easily add up to $1000s of dollarmeter. 

    Thanks for the input. No city water. Drillers well no meters. How often do you find yourself replacing carpets or people trashing the place? 

  • Weare, NH · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 23 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jack M.:
    Originally posted by @Nate Wilson:

    but even if I had to dump $5000 a year into it that stil leaves me with $4600-$7000 yearly profits. 

    Why do you think you'd only need to spend $5000 a year on it? 

    Vacancy alone will likely cost you about 2k, and when the tenant leaves, how sure are you that they won't trash the place, or at least leave it messy?

    What about when you need a new water heater in 5 years, or a new roof in 10 years? 

    How exactly did you come up with your $5000 figure? Was it just a random guess? Did you try using the calculator under the "tools" tab above? 

     Just throwing that out there. Honestly if I was to purchase the place I would save a years rent just for these situations and have a nest egg. I would be in it for the long run.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    10y

    @Nate Wilson  at this point in the RE recovery 2% rule only works 95% of the time in the HOOD.  but for rents right at about 1200 and under the 50% rule is a good one.. if you do better great .. but its a good one.

  • Investor · Quincy, MA · Member since 2015 · 30 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    Long run or not, cash flow is cash flow. Having a nest egg doesn't change the calculations one bit. 

  • Weare, NH · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 23 votes
    10y

    i would like to thank everyone that has posted on this forum. All this information is extremely helpful. I understand that really doing my homework and research needs to be done to figure out the right deal. 

    I am looking to just manage one property. I know you have to plan for the worst and hope for the best but how often do you find the place trashed by renters or circumstances where caused an abnormal amount of damage to the property? 

  • Weare, NH · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 23 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Jack M.:

    Long run or not, cash flow is cash flow. Having a nest egg doesn't change the calculations one bit. 

    thanks for the input jack. I appreciate your comments

  • Investor · Quincy, MA · Member since 2015 · 30 posts · 14 votes
    10y

    I've turned my property over twice (meaning I'm on my 3rd tenant). First tenant did about $5,000 in damage after being in the house for two years. She had a bunch of pets she wasn't supposed to have, and the whole place had to be re-carpeted and repainted. She was also a bit of a hoarder, and it took a bit to clean out the place. It sat vacant for two months, which cost another $2500 in lost rent. So, that averages out to about $3800 a year in just that, plus there were some smaller repairs in between.

    The tenant after that skipped out on paying a month's rent and getting it ready for the next tenant cost me $2500 out of pocket (including court costs for eviction. This is after I kept the security deposit). Then, it was vacant for a month. That's about $5000, and they were there for 16 months, so that's about another about $3800 a year.

    So for my single family home, it's pretty consistently $3800 a year not counting smaller repairs and not counting any big CapEX expenditures.

    The thought that you're only going to spend $2500 per year per unit is just pure fantasy. 

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    @Nate Wilson, put simply: if your monthly expenses are $1000/m, and your mortgage is $1000/m, then your $50k deposit is getting you ZERO interest!!! 

    Put even simpler: you are going backwards!

    If your trying to rationalize a purchase decision by saying "expenses will be a lot less than $1000/m (50%)", or "I expect good appreciation of the property value in future", then you had better have VERY realistic reasons to say so, because: it ain't "a perfect world"! Cheers...

  • Weare, NH · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 23 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Brent Coombs:

    @Nate Wilson, put simply: if your monthly expenses are $1000/m, and your mortgage is $1000/m, then your $50k deposit is getting you ZERO interest!!! 

    Put even simpler: you are going backwards!

    If your trying to rationalize a purchase decision by saying "expenses will be a lot less than $1000/m (50%)", or "I expect good appreciation of the property value in future", then you had better have VERY realistic reasons to say so, because: it ain't "a perfect world"! Cheers...

     Thank you for your advice. Expenses add up quick! 

  • Dubai , Dubai · Member since 2015 · 82 posts · 18 votes
    10y

    Hi Nate 

    Although the expenses may vary from location to location, you may want to try running your numbers through this conservative analysis tool I put together. Remember, I have based it on the expenses here in Dubai but the tool is flexible in that you can add or remove items at monthly, yearly, and one time as you see fit. 

    Hope it helps. 

    Regards 

    Sachin Acharya 

  • Real Estate Broker · Manchester, NH · Member since 2014 · 630 posts · 420 votes
    10y

    Hi @Nate Wilson, from my experience, I've found the 50% rule to be much more accurate than the 2% rule... especially in our area. If you have a potential rental income of $2000/mo and a PITI of $1200/mo, that already shows that the numbers won't fit within the 50% rule... however looking deeper, I usually use the following numbers as an estimated budget:

    10% of gross rents for maintenance (keep this money tucked away until you need to make repairs)

    5% of gross rents for capital expenditures (I usually recommend 10% if the building is 50+ years old or has not been updated for a long time)

    10% of gross rents for management OR for vacancy (If you have a professional property manager hired, they should have a tenant lined up by the time your current tenant chooses to leave, effectively meaning you'll have a vacancy rate of 0%.  If you don't have a professional property manager hired, you can probably expect to pay about 10% of your gross rents for vacancy while looking for a new tenant or might need to make repairs from the last tenant)

    10% of gross rents for water, sewer, trash, and snow removal (even if you're not running on city water, you still should be budgeting money accordingly for water because at some point, the pump in your drilled well is going to give out and you'll be left high and dry unless you have the money to fix it.  Additionally budgeting for trash pick-up and snow removal is helpful too)

    5% of gross rents for miscellaneous items (unexpected items that aren't always budgeted for, such as fees for running credit checks, or if you need to survey the property because of a title dispute, fees for hiring an accountant to keep your books in order, or some other random item).

    This is a more conservative estimate I use when getting an idea of expenses on a property... totaling about 40% of gross rent, and in this case, $800/mo.  This essentially puts your profit at $0.  This is also not knowing anything about the condition of the property.  If there is deferred maintenance, you'll be running negative cash flow for the first year or two trying to catch up on it.  

    From what I've seen in our area, its very difficult to cash flow positively with a duplex, and in the cases you do, it usually isn't worth it because you end up making very little per month.  

  • Investor · Hillsborough, NH · Member since 2015 · 137 posts · 126 votes
    10y

    @Nate Wilson-

    I agree with @Walter Key and @Jay Hinrichs, the 50% rule is good, and the 2% rule, well, not so much. Here's a link to a post I wrote where I explain exactly why the 2% rule should be used with caution, if not stricken entirely from your memory:

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/forums/88/topics/254...

    As far as the 50% rule, you can justify your own numbers all you want; just remember that 50% OER is tried and true over the years so if you think you'll do significantly better, you better run the numbers or you may be setting yourself up for a surprise. It's a good safe place to start an analysis and make sure you're covered. If you want to delve deeper and be more accurate, here's a breakdown:

    Potential Rents: $24,000

    Vacancy & Credit Loss (5%): $1,200

    Gross Operating Income: $22,800

    Repairs & Maintenance (10%): $2,280

    Management (10%): $2,280 (Even though you'll likely manage it yourself, you should include this because 1) Your time has an opportunity cost, 2) If you grow your portfolio you may eventually hire out management, and 3) It's simply how the analysis is done, don't reinvent a wheel that's already round)

    CapEx / Replacement Reserves (2%): $456 (This is something that you would likely leave out of a pro forma when selling your property, but a bank would include it in the underwriting analysis, and I suggest you include it when analyzing as a potential buyer. Also, many would argue that it is low at 2%. I have full-time employees doing my renovations and repairs, so my costs are less than an investor who hires contractors. You might want to bump this up a bit).

    Real Estate Taxes: $3,900 (BTW, the town has this property assessed at $174K. I own property in Weare and I know that the tax rate is $22.41. I do not know the equalization rate though, so I can't say how that assessment jives with the $200K purchase price. I wonder though, has it been reassessed since renovations, or are you facing a higher tax bill after reassessment? Something to consider, because a reassessment at $200K would boost your tax bill $582).

    Insurance: $1,000 (This is an estimate based on duplexes that I own, but it may be a little light because I have $10K deductibles, something your lender will not allow).

    Total Operating Expenses (43.49%): $9,916 (This does not include vacancy. If you include vacancy to get something comparable to the 50% rule method, your numbers become $11,116 or 46.31%). Also, the OER and 50% Rule DO NOT include debt service. 

    Net Operating Income: $12,884

    CAP Rate: 6.442% (I don't know if this is a good CAP Rate right now for duplexes in Weare. I focus on single family homes when we're on the way out of a down-market. However, maybe a local Realtor could let you know where current market CAP Rates are ranging for small multi-family properties).

    Last thing to determine is cash flow. Backing $3,900 for taxes, and my assumed $1,000 for insurance out of your $1,100 monthly PITI estimate, leaves $8,300 in Debt Service.

    CFBT: $4,584

    DSCR: 1.55x. (This is not bad, but current DCR's tend to be higher because interest rates are so low).

    I don't know your downpayment, but here's one more piece of advice: Calculate your Cash-On-Return based on your downpayment and any other out-of-pockets. Also, project a gameplan into the future, and calculate your IRR for a few different scenarios (sell after 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, whatever scenarios you think are most likely). If you don't know how to do these calculations, buy a book and learn, because you have no business investing in real estate if you can't accurately calculate (and comprehend) financial analyses such as NOI, OER, CAP Rate, ROI, DCF, and IRR. Knowing these will replace the subjective and often emotional decision-making process with an objective and analytical one, and may just save your arse.

    Overall on this deal, the numbers look decent. I wouldn't touch it personally because I'm a value-add investor (meaning I would have bought it for $100K in terrible condition and put $40K into it to make it worth the $200K), but that's just my strategy. If your strategy is to purchase turn-key, this deal may be right for you. Whatever you do, at least run similar analyses on other comparable properties so you know you're making the best investment available.

    Happy investing,

    Troy

  • Weare, NH · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 23 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Matt Lefebvre:

    Hi @Nate Wilson, from my experience, I've found the 50% rule to be much more accurate than the 2% rule... especially in our area. If you have a potential rental income of $2000/mo and a PITI of $1200/mo, that already shows that the numbers won't fit within the 50% rule... however looking deeper, I usually use the following numbers as an estimated budget:

    10% of gross rents for maintenance (keep this money tucked away until you need to make repairs)

    5% of gross rents for capital expenditures (I usually recommend 10% if the building is 50+ years old or has not been updated for a long time)

    10% of gross rents for management OR for vacancy (If you have a professional property manager hired, they should have a tenant lined up by the time your current tenant chooses to leave, effectively meaning you'll have a vacancy rate of 0%.  If you don't have a professional property manager hired, you can probably expect to pay about 10% of your gross rents for vacancy while looking for a new tenant or might need to make repairs from the last tenant)

    10% of gross rents for water, sewer, trash, and snow removal (even if you're not running on city water, you still should be budgeting money accordingly for water because at some point, the pump in your drilled well is going to give out and you'll be left high and dry unless you have the money to fix it.  Additionally budgeting for trash pick-up and snow removal is helpful too)

    5% of gross rents for miscellaneous items (unexpected items that aren't always budgeted for, such as fees for running credit checks, or if you need to survey the property because of a title dispute, fees for hiring an accountant to keep your books in order, or some other random item).

    This is a more conservative estimate I use when getting an idea of expenses on a property... totaling about 40% of gross rent, and in this case, $800/mo.  This essentially puts your profit at $0.  This is also not knowing anything about the condition of the property.  If there is deferred maintenance, you'll be running negative cash flow for the first year or two trying to catch up on it.  

    From what I've seen in our area, its very difficult to cash flow positively with a duplex, and in the cases you do, it usually isn't worth it because you end up making very little per month.  

    thanks for helpful information matt, I will get in touch with you later! it sounds like even if the mortage was at $1000 it would be questionable for cashflow. I like the idea that the property has new siding, new windows, new kitchens, and renovated bathrooms. I feel like these rennovations would help in the first couple of years as long as the tenants did destroy them.

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y

    Much of these numbers are area and property specific.  I have a 60's build 7-family of 2/2 townhome apts that behaves much differently than a 19teens complex of 1/1s.  I'm ok with a cap of 9 on the townhomes but need 14 on the older, smaller stuff.  Trunover and headaches are higher.  My smaller plexes are different as well.  If your duplex is large enough, has laundry, a yard, off-street parking, etc in a decent location, your vacancy rate should be much lower than if it didn't.  They will also attract a higher class of tenant that is easier on you and the property.

    Duplexes are valued based on comps.  1%/mo works on paper in my area, but are you getting a good value with this at $200k @Nate Wilson?    Are you paying full price or getting a discount from a motivated seller?  

  • Weare, NH · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 23 votes
    10y

    @Troy Zsofka

    I really appreciate all the calculations you made. I am new to this and I feel I need to learn more about how to run the numbers more. do you know of any links, articles, podcast, books, forums on this discussion. also a lot of the abbreviations I am not sure of there meaning.

    also the calculator on here for cashflow, I thought I read on here that I can only use that 3 times for free, is that correct?

    I see you are an investor in Hillsboro. how is the market there? I was glancing at some properties over there. the only thing that scares me over there is that I used to do billing collecting/shut-offs for electricity in that area, and it seems like I have been to every apartment building in that area.

  • Weare, NH · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 23 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

    Much of these numbers are area and property specific.  I have a 60's build 7-family of 2/2 townhome apts that behaves much differently than a 19teens complex of 1/1s.  I'm ok with a cap of 9 on the townhomes but need 14 on the older, smaller stuff.  Trunover and headaches are higher.  My smaller plexes are different as well.  If your duplex is large enough, has laundry, a yard, off-street parking, etc in a decent location, your vacancy rate should be much lower than if it didn't.  They will also attract a higher class of tenant that is easier on you and the property.

    Duplexes are valued based on comps.  1%/mo works on paper in my area, but are you getting a good value with this at $200k @Nate Wilson?    Are you paying full price or getting a discount from a motivated seller?  

    this is what I wanted to hear Steve! its a nice house with modern updates on the inside, curb appeal isn't the best, but I believe the inside makes up for it. laundry I am not sure about. it has off street parking and a decent yard. I believe Weare is a good location, 30 mins in between 2 cities ( concord and Manchester) with a high school ranking in the top 5 out of the state.

    200k seems a little step to me. I would be paying full price. I don't feel like it is worth 200k but maybe around 175-180k range.

    I feel like this property would be easy to manage, low operating cost, and would attract better tenants than most areas in the city. I know it wouldn't bring in the highest cashflow but would be a good start to rental income. 

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y

    @Nate Wilson I (and probably a lot of folks) don't pay full price.  Rule #1 for most  is 'don't overpay'!  

    If I had to have this, I would offer something like $171,467.  Get close to market value with a number that appears to come from a detailed analysis.  I never  offer nice round PFA numbers the realtors always seem to throw up.  Be specific and be un-countered!  

  • Weare, NH · Member since 2016 · 59 posts · 23 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

    @Nate Wilson I (and probably a lot of folks) don't pay full price.  Rule #1 for most  is 'don't overpay'!  

    If I had to have this, I would offer something like $171,467.  Get close to market value with a number that appears to come from a detailed analysis.  I never  offer nice round PFA numbers the realtors always seem to throw up.  Be specific and be un-countered!  

     Nicely said! Just curious how did you come up with that number? 

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