First out of state BRRRR & refi with Delayed Financ

First out of state BRRRR & refi with Delayed Financ

San Diego · Member since 2018 · 44 posts · 22 votes

Hello BP fam,

Thought it about time to write up my first investment purchase (BRRRR deal out of state).

Refinanced my $ back out in just under 6 months using Delayed Financing, my rehab $ too.

In short, did exactly what Alexander Felice outlined on his BP podcast (#301), as well as from his posts at brokeisachoice
Many thanks man!!! Hope it can help others. Will try and make it short and sweet and go from start to finish.

Deal

Deal came from a wholesaler in Indianapolis. I'm from Indy but live in San Diego.  

Photos gave impression of basic cosmetic rehab. I purchased site unseen as photos were pretty good and I was tired of loosing out to other buyers or a highest and best situation. I locked up the purchase agreement within a few hours after estimating Rehab and ARV as best I could.

  • Asking/Paid: $41,900
  • Rehab: ~$15,000
  • Closing fees: $1,846.57
  • All In as listed on Settlement Statement: $58,746.57 (sum of all above, more on this below)
  • Holding Costs: ~$470/month (HELCO payment ~$330/mo, Taxes/Insurance: $140/mo. Not included in below to make explanation easier)
  • ARV (appraised): $83,000
  • Rent (actual): $900/mo

Purchase

Purchase and Rehab funds all came from a HELOC on my condo in San Diego.

A month or so before I pulled the trigger I did 2 things.

  • 1: Found a bank that could do Delayed Financing with me living out of state.
  • 2: Called 2 title companies in Indy (ones that my wholesaler used) and asked if they could add funds, in addition to the purchase amount, to the Settlement Statement or HUD-1 form and hold them in escrow for me. In this case, $15,000 for the estimated Rehab. Both titles companies said no issue, though cost me $300 to do so.

I wired $42k (purchase amount) and the additional $15k (estimated rehab costs) to title company. At closing the wholesaler was paid from title company and I had my $15k in escrow that I could draw upon when I needed. Again…all I did was follow @Alexander Felice's steps he laid out in podcast and site.

Inspection was ordered the day of closing and showed some other basic problem areas that were easily fixed (various outlets not working, no fan/vent in bathroom), but nothing major. I was fortunate with the inspection.

Rehab:

I guessed.

I arrived at the rehab amount in a very quick and rough way. Estimated avg cost per sq/ft for flooring, paint and the basic dollar about for general fixes I could see via the photos. Came to a confident amount of about $15k.   

I was, and still am, plagued with "paralysis analysis", so if I was high or low on rehab amount by a few thousand I was OK with that.  Knowing and acknowledging this mental barrier helped.  If rehab cost $20k instead of $15k would I still move forward?...yes was the answer, so I did.

I got bids from contractors for the majority of updates myself as they were basic and didn't need a GC. Replace carpet for vinyl plank, add gutters, moisture barrier in crawl space etc...   Purchased the vinyl plank myself online (Home Depot sale) from San Diego and had the flooring contractor pick up the pallets in Indy.  Just put order under his name.  Easy. 

I paid for materials and the contractors with my credit card after each individual item was completed.  Then I called the title company and asked for a draw from my $15,000 held in escrow.  They mailed me a physical check and I used that $ to pay myself back/pay off credit card. Got credit card reward points as well.  First 3 draws were free if I recall correctly.  Easy.

The property manager I hired finished the rest of the work (painting walls, hanging & replacing doors, porch fixes) to get the unit rent ready. Paid them using same method above.  

This took little longer than 2 months. PM got it rented at the 3 month mark for $900/month. Probably a bit long on my end, but it was my first go.

Refinance….Delayed Financing

Conventional refi of a SFR is 75% of ARV after 6 months of seasoning.

I was at month 3 and wanted my cash back.

To refinance earlier than 6 months you have to use a “Delayed Financing exemption”.

Delayed financing lets you refinance a property for Up To 75% of the ARV (for a SFR) but not to exceed the purchase price of the home (what was recorded on your HUD or closing statement), excluding any rehab.  You can’t get additional cash back out with this method…only what you paid for it.

Pre apologies if my wording on above is not quuuuite right, but it's what I underwood.  My lender and I were on the same page in either case.

This thread Here and this good write up helped a ton.  Many thanks Robert and Andrew for these explanations. 

Fanny Mae guidelines on Delayed Financing Exemption.

So I paid $41,900 for the property but my additional $15,000 in estimated rehab costs my recorded HUD/closing statement was (closing costs included) $58,746.57 (see photo).

The bank, that I found before I made the move to purchase, approved me for delayed finance exemption and an appraisal was ordered.  It came back at $83,000. Woot!!

Side note...This process was a PAIN! Took 2-3 months and could be a whole other thread. I work at sea and have Sea Pay which is recorded differently on my W2 and varies month to month.  Add a condo rental in Tijuana with leases in Spanish increases the confusing fun. These two things were the cause of the delay. Gotta give the bank credit though, as it did work out in the end.

From a standard BRRRR deal this seems to have checked all the boxers. I was all in (purchase + repairs) for less than 75% of ARV.

75% of $83,000 is $62,500…and I was all in for $58,746.57.

A conventional refi (after 6 months) I should have been able to pull out $62,250 I believe.

With Delayed Financing I could only pull out 75% of the ARV up to my initial purchase price not to exceed 100% of HUD or $58,746.57 in my case.

Insert Alexander Felice's method here.  The Felice method I guess:). 

I was able to successfully refi out $55,030.43...at about 5 months after purchase. 

Eye roll I know, pretty close to 6 months. Guess I didn't have to delay finance after all. My sea pay W2 and Tijuana condo added a huuuuge delay.  Good learning experience any way. The $3,716.14 difference was in closing costs of the new mortgage.  Gotta figure out how to include those in next time! 

Also have to include holding costs during the first 3 month before it was rented (HELOC payments, taxes & insurance): $1410

  • Rent: $900/mo
  • New Mortgage PITI: $452.58
  • Maintenance 10%: $90
  • Management: $50 (actual)
  • Vacancy Loss 10%: $90
  • Cash Flow: $222.58

In the end this worked and got me a decent first rental for about $5k out of pocket.

Now off to get my next 100 if I can kick more paralysis analysis to the curb.

Hope this helps some folk!  

Photos below as well as highlighted Settlement Statement 

Before Before After before basic landscaping After
8Reply
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Most Popular Reply

Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2014 · 133 posts · 49 votes
6y

@Keith Shadle Thanks for sharing. What would be the downside of being highly conservative with the rehab estimate for purposes of the escrow? e.g. why not estimate $30-40K? 

Would it somehow get tied up by the title company due to the actual rehab being less?

See this reply in the discussion

31 Replies

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  • Realtor · Austin, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    Thank you for sharing @Keith Shadle!  I love the honesty in your rehab section:

  • San Diego · Member since 2018 · 44 posts · 22 votes
    6y

    You're Welcome @Bryan Noth.  The lower $ amount for my first go made it a easier decision for sure.

  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2018 · 40 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    Bravo, Keith! Thanks for sharing your story. I enjoy reading the journey people take on their deals, obstacles they faced and wins!

  • San Diego · Member since 2018 · 44 posts · 22 votes
    6y

    Thanks Matt!!  Ya end up finding out want to do the "next time" by simply doing your first deal.  No other way to find out what you don't know.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Escondido, CA · Member since 2018 · 268 posts · 137 votes
    6y

    Thanks for sharing the full deal @Keith Shadle. I hope to execute my first successful BRRRR here soon. Good for you for sticking through that lending process. Sounds trying.

  • San Diego · Member since 2018 · 44 posts · 22 votes
    6y

    No problem @Account Closed.  Lending was indeed the most pain in the bum part.  Was internally "stressful" when agreeing to purchase...but unnecessarily so.

    • "I want that house."  
    • "You got the $?"  
    • "Yes I do"  
    • "Ok then"

    That was about it. Just had to close which was easy because it was all my HELOC cash.

    When I did I was kinda looking around saying...guess I just got a SFR!

    Lender wanted to know more than what I expected...last 2 years of W2 & Taxes. Credit pull and explanation & documentation of where the funds came from for the purchase of the house.  Not from what bank per se..but why the funds were there specifically.  

    • Liquidation of retirement account? 
    • Stocks you sold that performed well?
    • Sale of your 2007 Tacoma that accounted for $15,000 of the purchase?  They wanted to know that.

    Tijuana condo was biggest pain for me.

    Good luck!!!

  • Rental Property Investor · Hendersonville, NC · Member since 2016 · 446 posts · 412 votes
    6y

    Great job and great write up!

  • Whitney HuttenPro Member
    Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    @Keith Shadle Great job!  Was the "pain" worth it?  How can you improve the process for next time :)

  • Rental Property Investor · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2020 · 44 posts · 39 votes
    6y

    @Keith Shadle

    That’s awesome Keith!! I would call that a success for sure!! I have one question for you though. Do you think using a regional portfolio lender with no seasoning on a cashout refi would have been a better route? Thank you for sharing your experience. I think a lot of investors could really benefit from reading it! 👍🏻👍🏻

  • San Diego · Member since 2018 · 44 posts · 22 votes
    6y

    Thanks @Ryan Howell, @Whitney Hutten, @Alex Keathley

    Pain was definitely worth it.  

    I would have the additional info lined up for the refi right away, as that was the main hold up (specific HELOC sale receipts, condo receipts etc). Didn't know they would get that granular. And I suppose a write up of all the $ amount specifics and why they were there.

    The time consuming part was just the calls and emails back and forth between loan officer explaining what "remote location allowance" is (Sea Pay) on my W2 and why it varies. Then showing them my sailing schedule. Then explaining the condo situation TJ as that income helped with my DTI ratio.

    Not really sure if there is away to send this odd explanations of things (Sea Pay and TJ) to the loan officer with the original packet of documents?  A simple .word write up?

    I was originally denied my refinance (forgot to mention) due to an error on their part (imo) for not including my Sea Pay correctly listed on W2. Not really pertinent to the deal in a whole, so I didn't mention it.  

    I had to again write loan officer explaining that they "darn well should" include my "sea pay" as it accounts for 30% of my W2 income some months (others not) and it is guaranteed as long as I sail. Luckily I have been at this w2 for 10+ years so that probably helped.

    If my DTI would have been sufficient without the Tijuana condo in there I would not have listed it. But don't know if that's too cool, as lenders want to know all assets, no?

    I might have been better off using a regional portfolio lender but I at the time I didn't really know what one was.  Guess I still don't, ha.  I found Bank of England and was already in deep in talks with them explaining my situation so decided to keep moving forward with them.

  • Nicholas L.Pro Member
    Flipper/Rehabber · Pittsburgh · Member since 2018 · 6k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y

    @Keith Shadle congrats and thanks for taking the time to post this.  I had a question on the choosing of this property.  You said "I purchased site unseen as photos were pretty good and I was tired of loosing out to other buyers or a highest and best situation."

    So - based on the photos and the price - did you feel pretty good about this one compared to others you bid on and didn't get?  Was the purchase price reasonable?  Just wanted to see if you had any additional information about pulling the trigger on this specific property.  Thanks!

  • Rental Property Investor · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2020 · 44 posts · 39 votes
    6y

    @Keith Shadle

    I was in the same boat not too long ago brother. You got the persistence and determination down to hold on five to six months with a conforming lender. You also have good eye for the price point in that market to get almost all of your money back on your first try. Great work all around! But, imagine being able to get your cash back four months sooner and also only have to worry about factors like DSCR, cash flow, and reserves. The only thing better than a great portfolio lender is private money and when you start out not too many people will take a chance on you with private money. I only bring this up because it completely changed how I structure my business. Trust me, it is worth the plane ticket and the hours you will spend calling bank to ask what their requirements are. Hope this helps! Keep it rolling Keith! 👍🏻👍🏻

  • San Diego · Member since 2018 · 44 posts · 22 votes
    6y

    Thanks @Nicholas L. 

    Yes, based on the photos of this particular property vs others I felt confident purchasing based just on photos.  I could wrap my head around carpet & paint.  Not so much with walls and basement fixes.  This property had neither of those issues.

    I did feel the purchase price was very reasonable.  Was not the best area but I needed one under my belt.

    It was a 4 bedroom which helped a ton as well and the siding on the house looked good and needed no updating, again helping with my decision.

    I also looked at Tax Assessed Value of the property (go here for Indy: https://www.indy.gov/workflow/...) and it came back at $43,200.  So my purchase price was less than assessed so that was good in my eyes and again helped as well.   

    Though caveat...my second purchase (soon after this one as I had motivation) I got burned on due to relying too much on Tax Assessed Value.  Duplex was tax assessed at $110k.  I bought at $80k and put $30k in leaving me all in for = to the Tax Assessed.  Surely the appraisal would come in higher than tax assessed value???....nope.  $89,000.  I should write it up in another post or something so others won't get similarly stung.  Got half way to fixing the issue though:)))

  • San Diego · Member since 2018 · 44 posts · 22 votes
    6y

    Thanks again @Alex Keathley! Would love to get my cash out months earlier and not have to worry about DSCR and other factors! I went with a Fanny/Freddy bank to get the best rates, though thought that was the only option for me at the time.

    Portfolio lenders can lend to individuals who invest in out of state properties? I have a LLC as well so maybe that will help.

    Due to Covid my sea days have been drastically reduced.  This will be reflected in my monthly W2 and will make it harder to refi my other two properties I assume.  So I am all ears to other options!  Thanks:)

  • Rental Property Investor · Saint Louis, MO · Member since 2020 · 44 posts · 39 votes
    6y

    @Keith Shadle

    Anytime Keith! It depends on the bank of course, but I have seen out of state investors have great success with portfolio lenders. To heighten your chances of being approved, I would go the LLC route and potentially partner with someone you trust in that area. Good realtors and property managers will usually have a list of portfolio lenders and investing partners you could get a relationship established with. It's not going to happen overnight, but you could just be a couple meetings away from being able to scale much quicker. Share this story and your plans with everyone you talk to and you're going to get a shot! Hope to read a follow up post about your success later! 👍🏻👍🏻

  • Member since 2020 · 13 posts · 7 votes
    6y

    @Keith Shadle

    Thanks for sharing!

  • Member since 2020 · 2 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Keith Shadle I love it when it works out! Great sharr

  • Guy with Great Hair · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    6y

    dude this is dope, looks like you got a great deal and I appreciate the shoutout. 

    I love to say "real estate is EASY" and looks like you're proving that to be correct. 

    congrats

  • Investor · Mesa, AZ · Member since 2018 · 28 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    @Keith Shadle thanks for sharing. I’m glad to see you got out of your own way and past analysis paralysis. It’s encouraging for someone who hasn’t yet been able to do that. Congratulations on your first deal being a success and I hope you have many more.

  • San Diego · Member since 2018 · 44 posts · 22 votes
    6y

    Many thanks @Jimmy Hodges, @Aaron Ward, @Yolanda Branham:)  5 min after I got the offer accepted a weight sort of lifted off my shoulders.  "That wasn't so bad" I thought.

    Yessir @Alexander Felice! You and other BP Bigs are virtual mentors to many upon many of others looking for ways to learn and grow. Very thankful for episode #301. I was literally was zooming in on one of your HUD's from the deal posts on your site, making sure I got the line # correct, when talking to the title company. Ha!

  • Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2018 · 26 posts · 8 votes
    6y

    @Keith Shadle

    Awesome write up man, as someone aspiring to start along this path, every deal I get to read about helps me further understand the process. Looks like you crushed it. Practically just finishing David Greene’s book on it. The financing aspect is the hardest for me to understand at this point in time. Anyways, good luck on your future investments.

  • Accountant · Accrington, England · Member since 2015 · 13 posts · 5 votes
    6y

    @Keith Shadle

    Hi

    Can you explain the $15,000? The title company held it for what purpose?

    Thanks

  • San Diego · Member since 2018 · 44 posts · 22 votes
    6y

    No problem @Account Closed!  Glad it could help.  Once I got the financing streight in my head it helped for sure.  Good to see you are in SD!

    @Shimon P. The $15,000 is what I used for rehab.  I should have stated that I was lucky in guesstimating that amount as it was a tad over $15k when all said and done (+/- a few hundred).

    The title company held it because I deposited it along with the purchase price of the home at the time of closing.  So when I refinanced the bank wound not just see the purchase price...but the purchase price + the $15k that I added.  That was the new purchase price.  I was able to pull that $15k back out again at month 5ish.

    I paid the individual contractors with my credit card.  Paid myself back and paid off the credit card when taking draws on the $15k held by the title company.  Hope this helps!

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2014 · 133 posts · 49 votes
    6y

    @Keith Shadle Thanks for sharing. What would be the downside of being highly conservative with the rehab estimate for purposes of the escrow? e.g. why not estimate $30-40K? 

    Would it somehow get tied up by the title company due to the actual rehab being less?

  • San Diego · Member since 2018 · 44 posts · 22 votes
    6y

    Hi @Jibu V., If I estimated that high I would have had to take that much more out of my HELOC, which I would be paying interest on. I don't want to pay interest on $ I'm not going to use. Though I would be able to get unused or excess funds back from title company with no issue. Did that on my 3rd purchase.

    Having only 15k in there kept me to it too.  I had 20 or 25k, it would have been easy to spend and then my #'s would not have worked out. 

    Thanks for the question!:)

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