She told us she would not renew the lease in Jun as she bought a house and would close in July. However, on July 30th, she said her closing date was postponed to Aug 9th and she wanted to stay until Aug 10th.
We found our new tenant in July and signed a lease with them starting Aug 1st. But they were flexible with the move-in date so we renewed the lease to a later date, which is not so bad as we plan to install new floorings before they move in.
Now the old tenant is not cooperating -
1. she does not answer our phone
2. we sent her the addendum with the original rent proportioned by date but put on a late fee $500 per day after Aug 10 (to motivate her to move!). She changed it to $50 without telling us, signed and sent it back (we have not signed it) so basically, I think, a, she knows there is a possibility that she won't be able to close on Aug 9th and she plans to stay! b, has she conducted a contract fraud?
3. the addendum said $532 be paid on Aug 1st. she paid $500 on Aug 2nd.
4. her mom (not on the lease) keeps sending us long texts, saying she is working on our property, fixing up, and charging us $25 per hour. Saying we had not maintained the property. And she threatens to report us for mold and fire hazards.
Fact: we fixed things she reported and for the past four years, she was a pretty ok tenant. She was a PhD student now post Doc. and a single mom, that's why we had tried to be accommodating. The mold she was talking about was a roof leakage 3 years ago, which we hired a company to fix it. We sprayed the anti-mold thing to the ceiling. They only told us three days ago there were dark marks. and also in 2019, she reported dishwasher leakage, which we replaced with a new one. She told us there was water damage to the floor but it looked ok until three days ago they removed the floor and sent us a picture it was black. The fire hazard was ridiculous as we replaced the fire detectors 2 years ago, but she said they were yellow and old.
Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
4y
You need to be filing for eviction pronto on the first available day (August 11, it sounds like). At least get the process started. She is not going to want a public eviction on her record.
I would also have an attorney send her a letter. You need to show her you mean business, plain and simple. You should not have changed anything on her behalf but filed for eviction as a squatter when she didn't leave by August 1st. Forget about the mother, you should only be talking to whomever is on the signed lease. Let her do what she wants about a lawyer.
Future lesson: unless you're 100% certain the unit will be vacant, don't rent it out before then OR be sure there's no recourse for your future tenants if you have to cancel the lease because you can't perform. Otherwise you could be on the hook both sides.
Rental Property Investor · Member since 2018 · 33 posts · 38 votes
4y
It's odd that they created this big of a fuss over a 10-day difference in move out. I'm confused why you wouldn't just move out, put everything in storage, and stay in a hotel or Airbnb till you close (maybe there's more context on their side).
Anyways, it's obvious they're trying to create leverage by reporting issues now.
I would talk to a local RE lawyer (perhaps you just need an hour of their time) to help navigate a bit
You could also (travel permitting) just go to your property and try and talk with them? Show them you're a human being, and not just a faceless email address / phone number.
It's odd that they created this big of a fuss over a 10-day difference in move out. I'm confused why you wouldn't just move out, put everything in storage, and stay in a hotel or Airbnb till you close (maybe there's more context on their side).
Anyways, it's obvious they're trying to create leverage by reporting issues now.
I would talk to a local RE lawyer (perhaps you just need an hour of their time) to help navigate a bit
You could also (travel permitting) just go to your property and try and talk with them? Show them you're a human being, and not just a faceless email address / phone number.
We don't know. Her mom kept sending us long long texts and photos talking about how much she had done for the townhouse and how negligent we are! I was thinking they wanted to stay for free. We are open to discussion but the tenant just refuses to connect. And her mom is insane, saying if we contact her daughter she would talk to a lawyer!
The reason we put $500 is to motivate her to move and gauge the situation. The way she handled it made us wonder if they plan to leave at all!!
It's odd that they created this big of a fuss over a 10-day difference in move out. I'm confused why you wouldn't just move out, put everything in storage, and stay in a hotel or Airbnb till you close (maybe there's more context on their side).
Anyways, it's obvious they're trying to create leverage by reporting issues now.
I would talk to a local RE lawyer (perhaps you just need an hour of their time) to help navigate a bit
You could also (travel permitting) just go to your property and try and talk with them? Show them you're a human being, and not just a faceless email address / phone number.
We don't know. Her mom kept sending us long long texts and photos talking about how much she had done for the townhouse and how negligent we are! I was thinking they wanted to stay for free. We are open to discussion but the tenant just refuses to connect. And her mom is insane, saying if we contact her daughter she would talk to a lawyer!
The reason we put $500 is to motivate her to move and gauge the situation. The way she handled it made us wonder if they plan to leave at all!!
I would limit conversation at this point then, talk to a lawyer, perhaps this all goes away on 8/10.
What is the "later date" that the new tenants are moving in? Hopefully it's late August or 9/1
Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
4y
You need to be filing for eviction pronto on the first available day (August 11, it sounds like). At least get the process started. She is not going to want a public eviction on her record.
I would also have an attorney send her a letter. You need to show her you mean business, plain and simple. You should not have changed anything on her behalf but filed for eviction as a squatter when she didn't leave by August 1st. Forget about the mother, you should only be talking to whomever is on the signed lease. Let her do what she wants about a lawyer.
Future lesson: unless you're 100% certain the unit will be vacant, don't rent it out before then OR be sure there's no recourse for your future tenants if you have to cancel the lease because you can't perform. Otherwise you could be on the hook both sides.
It's odd that they created this big of a fuss over a 10-day difference in move out. I'm confused why you wouldn't just move out, put everything in storage, and stay in a hotel or Airbnb till you close (maybe there's more context on their side).
Anyways, it's obvious they're trying to create leverage by reporting issues now.
I would talk to a local RE lawyer (perhaps you just need an hour of their time) to help navigate a bit
You could also (travel permitting) just go to your property and try and talk with them? Show them you're a human being, and not just a faceless email address / phone number.
We don't know. Her mom kept sending us long long texts and photos talking about how much she had done for the townhouse and how negligent we are! I was thinking they wanted to stay for free. We are open to discussion but the tenant just refuses to connect. And her mom is insane, saying if we contact her daughter she would talk to a lawyer!
The reason we put $500 is to motivate her to move and gauge the situation. The way she handled it made us wonder if they plan to leave at all!!
I would limit conversation at this point then, talk to a lawyer, perhaps this all goes away on 8/10.
What is the "later date" that the new tenants are moving in? Hopefully it's late August or 9/1
Yes, we have some flexibility here. But we are thinking of giving them a heads-up.
You need to be filing for eviction pronto. At least get the process started. She is not going to want a public eviction on her record.
I would also have an attorney send her a letter. You need to show her you mean business, plain and simple. You should not have changed anything on her behalf but filed for eviction as a squatter when she didn't leave by August 1st.
We've talked to a couple of lawyers and got a few different opinions. A. stay put and pray they leave on Aug 10th. B. have an attorney send a letter, and warn her of the consequences.
We have gone to the General Court and got the forms for eviction. I suppose if we submit the form she would instantly be notified? I am curious how the eviction would impact her house purchasing and credit score. What if she moves out before the court rules? Would that impact her? I agree, she is educated and she has got a decent job. She would not want an eviction on her record.
You need to be filing for eviction pronto on the first available day (August 11, it sounds like). At least get the process started. She is not going to want a public eviction on her record.
I would also have an attorney send her a letter. You need to show her you mean business, plain and simple. You should not have changed anything on her behalf but filed for eviction as a squatter when she didn't leave by August 1st. Forget about the mother, you should only be talking to whomever is on the signed lease. Let her do what she wants about a lawyer.
Future lesson: unless you're 100% certain the unit will be vacant, don't rent it out before then OR be sure there's no recourse for your future tenants if you have to cancel the lease because you can't perform. Otherwise you could be on the hook both sides.
She said she bought a house and would move out on July 30th. And she said she would not renew the lease. We didn't know her closing date was delayed before she told us. And we had no way to know it if she had not told us.
You need to be filing for eviction pronto. At least get the process started. She is not going to want a public eviction on her record.
I would also have an attorney send her a letter. You need to show her you mean business, plain and simple. You should not have changed anything on her behalf but filed for eviction as a squatter when she didn't leave by August 1st.
We've talked to a couple of lawyers and got a few different opinions. A. stay put and pray they leave on Aug 10th. B. have an attorney send a letter, and warn her of the consequences.
We have gone to the General Court and got the forms for eviction. I suppose if we submit the form she would instantly be notified? I am curious how the eviction would impact her house purchasing and credit score. What if she moves out before the court rules? Would that impact her? I agree, she is educated and she has got a decent job. She would not want an eviction on her record.
Prayer is not an effective strategy when it comes to real estate law :D
You can't file for eviction until her legal right to remain on the property expires. If you gave her an addendum that allows her to stay until 8/10, then you can't file until the next business day or whatever the law says in Virginia. An eviction would be a serious black mark on her record. No one with any sense wants a court eviction on their record. Yes, if you file for eviction and she moves out, the process would be halted and there wouldn't be any judgement. What gets reported depends on your state. Some states maintain records of filings.
You need to be filing for eviction pronto. At least get the process started. She is not going to want a public eviction on her record.
I would also have an attorney send her a letter. You need to show her you mean business, plain and simple. You should not have changed anything on her behalf but filed for eviction as a squatter when she didn't leave by August 1st.
We've talked to a couple of lawyers and got a few different opinions. A. stay put and pray they leave on Aug 10th. B. have an attorney send a letter, and warn her of the consequences.
We have gone to the General Court and got the forms for eviction. I suppose if we submit the form she would instantly be notified? I am curious how the eviction would impact her house purchasing and credit score. What if she moves out before the court rules? Would that impact her? I agree, she is educated and she has got a decent job. She would not want an eviction on her record.
Prayer is not an effective strategy when it comes to real estate law :D
You can't file for eviction until her legal right to remain on the property expires. If you gave her an addendum that allows her to stay until 8/10, then you can't file until the next business day or whatever the law says in Virginia. An eviction would be a serious black mark on her record. No one with any sense wants a court eviction on their record. Yes, if you file for eviction and she moves out, the process would be halted and there wouldn't be any judgement. What gets reported depends on your state. Some states maintain records of filings.
Arguably she has an addendum. Because she didn't sign the one we sent her, she changed the $500 to $50 and signed on it, which we have not signed. But she did wire $500, still one day later than the addendum. I would say the addendum is not a contract agreed upon by both sides.
You need to be filing for eviction pronto. At least get the process started. She is not going to want a public eviction on her record.
I would also have an attorney send her a letter. You need to show her you mean business, plain and simple. You should not have changed anything on her behalf but filed for eviction as a squatter when she didn't leave by August 1st.
We've talked to a couple of lawyers and got a few different opinions. A. stay put and pray they leave on Aug 10th. B. have an attorney send a letter, and warn her of the consequences.
We have gone to the General Court and got the forms for eviction. I suppose if we submit the form she would instantly be notified? I am curious how the eviction would impact her house purchasing and credit score. What if she moves out before the court rules? Would that impact her? I agree, she is educated and she has got a decent job. She would not want an eviction on her record.
Prayer is not an effective strategy when it comes to real estate law :D
You can't file for eviction until her legal right to remain on the property expires. If you gave her an addendum that allows her to stay until 8/10, then you can't file until the next business day or whatever the law says in Virginia. An eviction would be a serious black mark on her record. No one with any sense wants a court eviction on their record. Yes, if you file for eviction and she moves out, the process would be halted and there wouldn't be any judgement. What gets reported depends on your state. Some states maintain records of filings.
Arguably she has an addendum. Because she didn't sign the one we sent her, she changed the $500 to $50 and signed on it, which we have not signed. But she did wire $500, still one day later than the addendum. I would say the addendum is not a contract agreed upon by both sides.
If you accepted the $500 you have a contract. You made a mistake doing the addendum at all. You're going to have to get past the 10th and go from there.
You need to be filing for eviction pronto. At least get the process started. She is not going to want a public eviction on her record.
I would also have an attorney send her a letter. You need to show her you mean business, plain and simple. You should not have changed anything on her behalf but filed for eviction as a squatter when she didn't leave by August 1st.
We've talked to a couple of lawyers and got a few different opinions. A. stay put and pray they leave on Aug 10th. B. have an attorney send a letter, and warn her of the consequences.
We have gone to the General Court and got the forms for eviction. I suppose if we submit the form she would instantly be notified? I am curious how the eviction would impact her house purchasing and credit score. What if she moves out before the court rules? Would that impact her? I agree, she is educated and she has got a decent job. She would not want an eviction on her record.
Prayer is not an effective strategy when it comes to real estate law :D
You can't file for eviction until her legal right to remain on the property expires. If you gave her an addendum that allows her to stay until 8/10, then you can't file until the next business day or whatever the law says in Virginia. An eviction would be a serious black mark on her record. No one with any sense wants a court eviction on their record. Yes, if you file for eviction and she moves out, the process would be halted and there wouldn't be any judgement. What gets reported depends on your state. Some states maintain records of filings.
Arguably she has an addendum. Because she didn't sign the one we sent her, she changed the $500 to $50 and signed on it, which we have not signed. But she did wire $500, still one day later than the addendum. I would say the addendum is not a contract agreed upon by both sides.
If you accepted the $500 you have a contract. You made a mistake doing the addendum at all. You're going to have to get past the 10th and go from there.
We tried to block the $500 but the bank said we could not. We were trying to be helpful because she has been here for four years without much problem.
You need to be filing for eviction pronto. At least get the process started. She is not going to want a public eviction on her record.
I would also have an attorney send her a letter. You need to show her you mean business, plain and simple. You should not have changed anything on her behalf but filed for eviction as a squatter when she didn't leave by August 1st.
We've talked to a couple of lawyers and got a few different opinions. A. stay put and pray they leave on Aug 10th. B. have an attorney send a letter, and warn her of the consequences.
We have gone to the General Court and got the forms for eviction. I suppose if we submit the form she would instantly be notified? I am curious how the eviction would impact her house purchasing and credit score. What if she moves out before the court rules? Would that impact her? I agree, she is educated and she has got a decent job. She would not want an eviction on her record.
Prayer is not an effective strategy when it comes to real estate law :D
You can't file for eviction until her legal right to remain on the property expires. If you gave her an addendum that allows her to stay until 8/10, then you can't file until the next business day or whatever the law says in Virginia. An eviction would be a serious black mark on her record. No one with any sense wants a court eviction on their record. Yes, if you file for eviction and she moves out, the process would be halted and there wouldn't be any judgement. What gets reported depends on your state. Some states maintain records of filings.
Arguably she has an addendum. Because she didn't sign the one we sent her, she changed the $500 to $50 and signed on it, which we have not signed. But she did wire $500, still one day later than the addendum. I would say the addendum is not a contract agreed upon by both sides.
If you accepted the $500 you have a contract. You made a mistake doing the addendum at all. You're going to have to get past the 10th and go from there.
We tried to block the $500 but the bank said we could not. We were trying to be helpful because she has been here for four years without much problem.
Does that mean she keeps paying $50/day then we cannot evict her? That's ridiculous
Mine only concern was about the mold. But after making a few calls, I am not that concerned now.
1. the dishwasher leakage was in 2019. We didn't see mold at that time (before they flipped the floor three days ago and sent us a picture, we didn't know it was a little black)
2. it has been three years, and there should not be any dampness or mold there.
3. I called the local Health Dept and Neighborhood Development Services, and both confirmed that we don't have mold legislation thus they don't accept reports.
We asked to meet with her yesterday very friendly. And we will give her 24-48 hours to reply. Then we would send an email telling her we would file eviction on Aug 11, if she wants to have an eviction on her record.
Honolulu, HI · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y
Aloha,
Mistake #1- "She TOLD us she would not renew" and "She said her closing date was postponed". ALWAYS get it in writing! Mistake #2- "We found our new tenant...signed lease with them starting Aug1". NEVER commit to start date in writing until unit is vacant AND ready for move in. MIstake #3- "We sent her the addendum...but put on a late fee $500 per day". "She changed it". Clearly there was no "meeting of the minds", the addendum is invalid. Do not sign it. You simply are not accepting her change, however your proposed addendum is not accepted either. Mistake #4- Is her Mom on the lease? Is her mom on her application paperwork? I'm guessing the answer to both is no, so, WHY are you even accepting her calls/texts? Block her number and advise YOUR tenant that she needs to speak for herself. Mom has no legal standing, and you are not paying for any work that was not agreed to in advance, in writing (which would be NONE). Mistake #5- Did you keep records of prior issues reported in writing by the tenant? And the receipts for the items noted above that you did repair? Did you ever, in the past three years, inspect the interior of the unit, especially the prior leak areas? I'm guessing probably not on at least two out of three of these.
What is local law? Many jurisdictions have a "Holdover" element, that you can invoke if someone stays beyond their scheduled date (the actual process may vary). This automatically allows you to (for example in my locale) double the rent rate, on a daily basis. However, you have never stated that you actually terminated the original agreement, or that it was a fixed term, actually ending on a certain date. You need to do so, in writing, in accordance with local law, now.
Your main concern at this point should be informing the incoming tenant of potential issues, and collaborate with them on a Plan B. I can just about guarantee that if you leave them in the dark until the last minute, it will get very expensive for you if the property is not available to them when and as promised, per written agreement.
Mistake #6- Believing you can effectively manage a rental remotely when you appear to have no systems or processes in place. Plenty of Owners/Investors are ineffective with properties in their own city, let alone from 1000 miles away. Plenty of jurisdictions actually require out of state owners to have a designated local agent for residential properties, and with good reason. Yes, I am a licensed Property Manager. And, I have taken on management of countless properties owned by both local and out of state investors. Very few have been operated as a business...most are, at best, a hobby, where the Owner enjoys doing handyman work (often of dubious quality), at worst, an absolute "investment" Gamble, with no regard for tenants, laws, or much of anything but spending the absolute minimum while collecting the most money possible until their "cash cow" implodes. I literally had one property where the (not so) Handy Owner "repaired" a leaking, plumbing roof vent by wrapping it with duct tape. Tenants, and prospective Tenants, DO have rights, and Owners need to understand and respect those rights, according to local landlord and tenant laws. You cannot just arbitrarily change terms, or make demands, or ignore legitimate repair requests. You need to follow the law, being fair and reasonable in how you do so, with all tenants and prospective tenants.
You are so far into this, my recommendation is to immediately send whatever termination notice is required by local law (10 days, 30 days, whatever is called for), IN WRITING. Further, I would advise the tenant you are still willing to pro-rate rent to the last day of their occupancy, based on when the keys are returned to a specified person/location (what was your plan for this?). The property is expected to be in the same or better condition as when they moved in, as shown on their Move In Condition Form (which you have, correct?). If there is no move in form, you must accept the property as they leave it, since you have zero evidence of what it was previously. If you DO have a signed move in form, remind the tenant of the expected condition in your termination notice.
Mistake #1- "She TOLD us she would not renew" and "She said her closing date was postponed". ALWAYS get it in writing! ___we had it in writing. She confirmed that in emails. Mistake #2- "We found our new tenant...signed lease with them starting Aug1". NEVER commit to start date in writing until unit is vacant AND ready for move in. ___ wait until they move out and start finding new tenants? MIstake #3- "We sent her the addendum...but put on a late fee $500 per day". "She changed it". Clearly there was no "meeting of the minds", the addendum is invalid. Do not sign it. You simply are not accepting her change, however your proposed addendum is not accepted either. ___no we didn't sign it Mistake #4- Is her Mom on the lease? Is her mom on her application paperwork? I'm guessing the answer to both is no, so, WHY are you even accepting her calls/texts? Block her number and advise YOUR tenant that she needs to speak for herself. Mom has no legal standing, and you are not paying for any work that was not agreed to in advance, in writing (which would be NONE). ___my husband did received her call and replied a couple texts saying we had not agreed on any projects. She forbids us contacting her daughter (the only one tenant) saying she is having covid. Mistake #5- Did you keep records of prior issues reported in writing by the tenant? And the receipts for the items noted above that you did repair? Did you ever, in the past three years, inspect the interior of the unit, especially the prior leak areas? I'm guessing probably not on at least two out of three of these. We had the emails she reported and we had contractors changed the dishwashers and fixed the roof. We also checked the floor, didn't see mold. Roof was treated with anti mold spray.
What is local law? Many jurisdictions have a "Holdover" element, that you can invoke if someone stays beyond their scheduled date (the actual process may vary). This automatically allows you to (for example in my locale) double the rent rate, on a daily basis. However, you have never stated that you actually terminated the original agreement, or that it was a fixed term, actually ending on a certain date. You need to do so, in writing, in accordance with local law, now. __talked to a lawyer today and he wound send a notice tomorrow
Your main concern at this point should be informing the incoming tenant of potential issues, and collaborate with them on a Plan B. I can just about guarantee that if you leave them in the dark until the last minute, it will get very expensive for you if the property is not available to them when and as promised, per written agreement. __
Mistake #6- Believing you can effectively manage a rental remotely when you appear to have no systems or processes in place. Plenty of Owners/Investors are ineffective with properties in their own city, let alone from 1000 miles away. Plenty of jurisdictions actually require out of state owners to have a designated local agent for residential properties, and with good reason. Yes, I am a licensed Property Manager. And, I have taken on management of countless properties owned by both local and out of state investors. Very few have been operated as a business...most are, at best, a hobby, where the Owner enjoys doing handyman work (often of dubious quality), at worst, an absolute "investment" Gamble, with no regard for tenants, laws, or much of anything but spending the absolute minimum while collecting the most money possible until their "cash cow" implodes. I literally had one property where the (not so) Handy Owner "repaired" a leaking, plumbing roof vent by wrapping it with duct tape. Tenants, and prospective Tenants, DO have rights, and Owners need to understand and respect those rights, according to local landlord and tenant laws. You cannot just arbitrarily change terms, or make demands, or ignore legitimate repair requests. You need to follow the law, being fair and reasonable in how you do so, with all tenants and prospective tenants.___ we are not remote. We had contractors replaced the dishwasher, fixed the roof, and changed livingroom carpet into laminate.
You are so far into this, my recommendation is to immediately send whatever termination notice is required by local law (10 days, 30 days, whatever is called for), IN WRITING. Further, I would advise the tenant you are still willing to pro-rate rent to the last day of their occupancy, based on when the keys are returned to a specified person/location (what was your plan for this?). The property is expected to be in the same or better condition as when they moved in, as shown on their Move In Condition Form (which you have, correct?). If there is no move in form, you must accept the property as they leave it, since you have zero evidence of what it was previously. If you DO have a signed move in form, remind the tenant of the expected condition in your termination notice. __thanks for the reminder.
Just ignore the texts from her mom. It sounds like she's paid for the extra 10 days to stay and hope that she moves out on time. The $532 vs $500, take the extra $32 out of her deposit when she leaves. Tell her the original addendum stands and that it is $500 a day after Aug 10, not $50.
If her mom lives close enough to apparently do work on the house, your tenant can stay with her mom starting Aug 10 if she hasn't closed on her new house.
Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y
This is exactly why I won’t show a property while it’s occupied and rely on people moving out when they say they will. And for sure I won’t have a lease signed for new people before old people are out. You never know what the condition will be after they move out.
Just ignore the texts from her mom. It sounds like she's paid for the extra 10 days to stay and hope that she moves out on time. The $532 vs $500, take the extra $32 out of her deposit when she leaves. Tell her the original addendum stands and that it is $500 a day after Aug 10, not $50.
If her mom lives close enough to apparently do work on the house, your tenant can stay with her mom starting Aug 10 if she hasn't closed on her new house.
I doubt. Her mom's phone number is not local. She may have come to stay with her.
Just ignore the texts from her mom. It sounds like she's paid for the extra 10 days to stay and hope that she moves out on time. The $532 vs $500, take the extra $32 out of her deposit when she leaves. Tell her the original addendum stands and that it is $500 a day after Aug 10, not $50.
If her mom lives close enough to apparently do work on the house, your tenant can stay with her mom starting Aug 10 if she hasn't closed on her new house.
I doubt. Her mom's phone number is not local. She may have come to stay with her.
You never know. My sister has a WA area code on her cell phone and lives on the other side of the country.
This is exactly why I won’t show a property while it’s occupied and rely on people moving out when they say they will. And for sure I won’t have a lease signed for new people before old people are out. You never know what the condition will be after they move out.
Lesson learned.
We engaged an attorney today. Hopefully, it would help.
